Help With New Preamp Decision

@vthokie83 

 I still prefer Aric's Motherlode XL, but I would be thrilled to keep the Raven (except my buddy really wanted it back).

What was it that you preferred on the XL over the Raven. 

zarf

Since my last post was exactly a year ago, I've had a lot of time with the Motherlode XL; and it is still my reference preamp......and will be for a long time.

As I mentioned in my initial post, subsequent posts, and in the year since; I've auditioned, "borrowed", or listened to in systems I know very well, a large group of preamps. I am not going to cover all of them, because it must be more than a dozen.

Please note that these are my own personal preferences, and not to dismiss any other preamps, so don't flame me. My personal system would probably be considered "mid fi" by some, "hi fi" by others.....and certainly will be upgraded over the next year; streamer, DAC, DIY cables, and adding a fifth set of speakers.

As of this writing, there are 2 that I feel are the top: Aric Audio Motherlode XL $6,500 and the Don Sachs/Lynn Olson Raven preamp at $5,900 (manufactured by Spatial Audio). I still prefer Aric's Motherlode XL, but I would be thrilled to keep the Raven (except my buddy really wanted it back).

In addition, and if I had not heard the Motherlode XL and Raven, I can still recommend a few that are great preamps: Aric Audio Motherlode II $5,850 (Motherlode XL without balanced connections.....in Tier 3 configuration), Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 $8,500 and Rhythm 1.4 $12,900, BAT VK-80 $8,00ish if you can find one, and Supratek Cabernet $4,000

Also for those on budget constraints, there is the Aric Audio Super 6SN7 at $4,200 and Supratek Chardonnay at $3,000, and the before mentioned Supratek Cabernet at $4,000.

The OP made a great choice. My Motherlode paired with the Coda 16 has proven to be the most rewarding of combinations in my 30 plus years of obsessing. I began working with Aric over eight years ago and fortunate to be working with him again on a new piece of gear. He is a true gift to our esoteric community!

Aric Audio Motherlode XL - awesome preamp.  Clean, clear, dense tone colors, great spatial qualities.

On my long and winding preamp journey I have settled on the Zanden 3100.  It's just right for me and has almost all the features I want minus the balance control. Just the right balance between the tube pre amps and solid state I tried.  I am happy and got the matching amp and things have taken a big step up.  I spent time with and owned Schit Freya +, AR REF 6, Cary SLP05 ultimate, Rotel Michi, Benchmark LA4.  The little 3100 is the goldilocks sound of the bunch and suits my lifestyle as it doesn't run like a space heater and only has 2 small tubes.  Remote can turn it on and it's not so massive.  Has 2 sets of RCA and XLR outs, it's almost a perfect preamp for me and Zanden knows what they are doing with sound. 

I'm interested in reading your opinions of the sound of the system as it comes together and breaks in. I've been thinking about a similar list of preamplifiers for later this year, so this is an interesting thread. I've enjoyed Aric's Unlimited II with a Pass Aleph 5 in one of my systems for several years. I'm sure that a Motherlode/Coda pairing will be rewarding.

Though I did not speak specifically with Aric about the AES48 standard, his website for the preamp does specifically say the balanced connections support AES48.

@vthokie83 The inputs do but not the output.

As far as I can make out the Coda supports the standard.

Ralph,

I certainly appreciate your input, and yes one of my amps does have balanced inputs. I ultimately went with the Aric Audio Motherlode XL preamp, and it has one balanced and one unbalanced output.....two balanced and two unbalanced inputs. Though I did not speak specifically with Aric about the AES48 standard, his website for the preamp does specifically say the balanced connections support AES48.

I also purchased a CODA S5.5 amplifier which has balanced and unbalanced connections, but it does not specifically say whether it supports AES48

@vthokie83 Do you have a balanced input on your amps?

FWIW, since this is likely all moot at this point, the MP-3 has a patented direct-coupled output which sets it apart from the others of your list and audition.

If the Backert Labs was balanced, it would have been the only other preamp on your list that supports AES48 (the balanced line standard) other than the MP-3; it uses an output transformer for that.

The balanced line standard helps prevent interconnect cables from causing a coloration. If you have ever auditioned and heard a difference between interconnect cables, you know what I'm talking about. 

If your amplifier uses a single-ended input, then using a balanced preamp won't help out.

I chose a Supratek Cabernet a few years ago, had some problems with it initially and had to ship it back for new power supply, was thinking about the Moderlode from Aric Audio, Aric was great to correspond with also, I choose to give Mick a chance to repair my pre amp and am very happy I did that, the Cabernet sounds fantastic with my Belles sa30 power amp, so I am very happy.

Choosing a tube pre, one has to know what kind of sound one wants, in my humble opinion if the sound is close to a solid state sound, then I would just choose a solid state one, no tube hassle 😜.

For me I would not hesitate buying a Supratek again as the sound is sublime, also buying from Aric would be very tempting, reading all the positive reviews and feedback from consumers, also I don’t think there is a much nicer or helpful guy in audio.

Stay away from those high priced boutique brands . I always took the Prima Luma pill. That guy Kevin is heck of salesman . It has to been a reason why so many of the are on the pre owned market .

I am a 1.3 extreme owner. I wish to touch on one topic only; that being choice of music. If you do get one of these be aware it will show every piece of beauty and flaws from a signal. In many ways it's a slave to the signal and simply a straight line with gain. But I would never dream of starting a system without a preamp. Very neutral with a sight tinge of tube. 

Sorry, that last post got cut off.

Aric Kimball suggested the NOS tubes supplied with his amp were excellent, but I did order it with the upgraded Sylvania "Bad Boy" tubes. I was willing to upgrade elsewhere if Aric thought it was warranted, but the 6SN7 tubes were the only place he suggested.

Yowser,

I heard the Rhumba 1.4 and the Rhumba Extreme 1.4, but the standard Rhumba was outclassed by the Rogue RP-9 and certainly by the Rhumba Extreme; and it did not sound congested....but I do not remember which tubes came with the stock unit. At that quality level, I bet it comes down to system synergy, and the NOS tubes are a better match. I replaced all "re-issue" tubes in my amp with NOS tubes, and that made the difference.

Aric Kimball (Aric Audio)

It was the re-issue Gold Lion tubes that made it sound congested.  Switching to NOS tubes made all the difference.

For what the Rhumba 1.4 Extreme sells for new it should not sound congested. I can't imagine that's typical. Wondering if you gave the "upgrades" long enough to break in.

@paul_lindemann Just wondering which Backert preamp did you experience?  I have the Rhumba Extreme and was initially a little disappointed.  It came with re-issue Gold Lion's which to me sounded congested.  I contacted Andy Tebbe at Backert Labs and had it upgraded to 1.4 status and it still sounded congested.  He suggested trying his "secret mystery" tubes and voila, sounded much better.  I was then on a quest to find even better tubes and settled on Amperex 7316's which I've seen recommended here by other users.  It now lives up to its reputation.  I agree with your assessment of LTA gear.

A good grouping!

My experience with the Backert has been positive - except that the sound sounds a bit manufactured - not musical or organic.

I love the LTA gear, but overall, the pre sounds thin compared to real life.

A Pre to try is the Coincident Pre...uses the transformers to drive the sound and their product/reputation is pristine.

Thanks jc4659, it's about 12 weeks out in production......so maybe May?

@vthokie83 your finalists are all well respected preamps.  Congratulations on the new Aric Audio Motherlode XL!  I hope after receiving it you can break away from the music long enough to let us know how satisfied you are!

Final thoughts, and what I did (actually Patrick purchased too). I decided to purchase the Aric Audio Motherlode XL 6SN7 preamp. In the end I just like the idea of having a handmade point to point wired preamp, that is relatively easily upgraded if need be. I have had nothing but excellent communications with Aric, and have seen nothing but excellent reviews from owners on his equipment. I did get one upgrade, a set of "Bad Boy" Sylvania 6SN7 tubes......I will still have lingering thoughts on the Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4, that was a great preamp.

My friend purchased the BAT VK-80 preamp, I had it right up there with the Backert Rhumba Extreme personally.....but he certainly did love the sound and looks of the BAT

Sorry for the long delay in getting my thoughts together, it's been a hectic week at work. As I mentioned I went on a preamp listening tour last week and this past weekend, trying to hear several tube preamps on my list in situations where I'd have a chance to fairly compare them. There is no scientific way to do this, so I did the best I could. I am not great at describing my listening thoughts, these are my comments, on my experience, and in NO WAY is meant to be disrespectful and any equipment or anyone's preferences. Also no way to compare one of my finalists, the Aric Audio Motherlode XL 6SN7 preamp.....but I have had several occasions to hear his Super 6SN7 Linestage, which is where I learned of Aric's products.

On several of these trips (not the first trip with ARC REF 5 SE and Rogue RP-9), I was with my golfing buddy and fellow audiophile Patrick (who is luckily enough to not have some of my financial constraints), and is moving on from integrated amps to separate preamps and amps in two systems.....my wife bailed, probably a good decision for both of us.

My thoughts are listed in the order I demo'd them:

1. Rogue RP 9 $7,500 (was offered $7,000) – A really really good preamp. I found it hard to get into a critical listening session, it just involved me into the music. Strong points: quiet background, wide and high soundstage (not overly deep), instrument placement was really good but a bit forward on the stage, great detail, bass attack and clarity were excellent, highs were very detailed, instrument details (decay, edges, string plucks) quality much better than my current setup, thankfully this pre is good with the types of music that I listen to. Weak points: midrange and vocals were just a touch “off” maybe dry without as much tube warmth I’m looking for, a tad too revealing on lesser recordings (The Church “Under the Milky Way Tonight)….shows what is in the music, bass not as deep as others, not physically impressive as some other options….almost ordinary. I did not expect this preamp to be this good going into it.
2. ARC REF 5SE – A very good preamp, and technically excellent. Very attractive preamp, certainly a statement piece. I did not feel I was in the music, but listening to the music (if that makes sense at all), dealer wanted to start with classical music and jazz were much more engaging made them more enjoyable than I am accustomed to, very detailed, wide soundstage if not as high and deep, vocals had excellent detail but was missing more tube like sound, bass was very good….if just a touch rounded. Once started listening to my music, I guess I expected more; no doubt this is excellent. this was also a 7 year old unit with over 3000 hours on it, a few scratches on the top and sides that didn’t bother me….but one on the faceplate that was irritating to look at. Directly compared to the Rogue RP-9 at same location
3. BAT VK-80 $10,000 (I was offered a bit less) – First off, it’s just too expensive for me even with discounts, but it was available and many have recommended it......and it's on Patrick's list. This preamp is a work of art, just stunning, and it’s performance is excellent. Take all of the best parts of the ARC REF 5SE and this preamp is a bit better in most respects. Better deep bass, faster and more controlled, great instrument placement, soundstage the best I’ve heard to date, quite involving, balanced and revealing but in an enjoyable way…..no harsh edges, smooth, has some of that tube magic that I like. I could live with this as my final preamp at this point in my journey. Directly compared to the Rogue RP-9 at second location.
4. Backert Labs Rhumba 1.4 $5,000 – Really a very good preamp, but not as good as the Rogue RP-9…….I really didn’t spend too much time listening to it. It wasn’t as good as the Rogue RP9 in some respects, and it certainly wasn’t as good as what I heard next. Directly compared to the Rogue RP-9 and the Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 at the same location.
5. Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 $8,500 (offered new for $7,200) – Damn! I would loved to have the BAT VK-80 on hand to do a head to head comparison. Take my BAT notes and cut and paste here, maybe better? Really involving, lovely vocals, fast and smooth (I know, mutually exclusive), detailed without any hint of sharp edges, quiet, really good dynamics, goes deep with nice attack….not at all flabby, really physically attractive in a retro kind of style….well made. I could live with this as my final preamp, at least at this point in my system. Directly compared to the Rogue RP-9 and the standard Backert Labs Rhumba 1.4
6. Aric Audio Motherlode XL $6,125 - I have never heard this preamp directly, but have heard Aric's Super 6SN7 paired with a CODA amp on several occasions. I wanted to keep a 6SN7 based preamp in my final decision; and this one makes it based on previous experience with his other preamp, 6SN7 based, balanced AES48 standard, terrific reviews by some good people, have read dozens and dozens of positive user experiences with his equipment, quality of parts, and many great communications back and forth with Aric.

I'll add another post later tonight or tomorrow with final thoughts, and conclusions.

If you are going to look at Audio Research might as well add many solid state preamps to the list as that is what AR sounds like to me.  I'm no expert about Audio Research but I did spend a year going back and forth with a Ref 6 and Schiit Freya + as well as Benchmark LA4.  The Freya + has some nice tubes that cost near as much as the preamp so I only speak to it's sound based on using those tubes.  I never tried anything other than what came with the Ref 6.  If the Ref 6 wasn't a huge space heater I would prob marginally have preferred it but the guys at ARC should be scared at how close a 1000 preamp can come to a 15K preamp in sound.  ARC has it all, balance all the ins and outs you'd ever need and built like a tank.  Remote does it all too, power on and off and balance control (something the Freya lacks).  For me it was just not better enough than the Freya + and sounded more like the uber clean and detailed Benchmark than the warmth you get from the Freya + in tube mode.  You also get a totally different sound from Freya + in passive mode which can be fun for a change and also easy to switch off the tubes from the remote and still keep the system alive and running for short sessions that might not happen if you have to "warm up the tubes" to listen.  Seems like a lot of ARC fans on here.  My take is why bother with the hassle if you want a tube sound then why buy a unit that sounds like a solid state unit and have to deal with the hassle of tubes.  I still want a preamp that is better than both and has all the features of a full feature preamp and doesn't run as hot a space heater in the room. 

Soix,

That is the review that I was able to find, comparing models that are 5 years old and 3 revisions now. Yes you are correct, the Rhumba Extreme is quite a bit more expensive at $8,500 list right now. I've been able to find new ones discounted to $7,200.....still quite expensive. I'm probably going to be a bit over my $6,000 budget, no matter what I decide on.

I think he was comparing the MicroZOTL to the Rhumba 1.1, but that was several years ago.  I’d imagine the Rhumba Extreme is quite a bit more expensive, no?  I think he may have moved on to another pre from Aric or something. 

Soix,

I know that Terry has the MicroZOTL as his reference preamp, but I'm not sure which Backert he compared it with.....I tried to find the article, but was unable. I'm sure the MicroZOTL is superior to the Rhumba, but the Rhumba Extreme is a different animal; basically a Rhythm in a Rhumba box.

Keep it in the back of your mind that you can do an in-home trial of the LTA MicroZOTL.  Terry London slightly preferred it to the Rhumba so that could be interesting.  Looking forward to your thoughts. 

js4659,

Going tomorrow to hear the Backert Labs preamps, sometime after I'll post some opinions.

@vthokie83 I would be very interested to hear your feedback about the preamps you have lined up for audition.  Please keep us informed!

First off, thank you all for your input! It is nice to get your experiences, and for keeping it on topic. So many suggested the ARC 5SE, and I've added it to my list....but only if I can find a later model with the new board, and if I can verify it's serial number and production date. I've found one, but I'm waiting for a response from the seller.

I'm removing the Atma-Sphere MP3.3.....I know it is great product (no offense to anyone that owns one or to Ralph who appears to be a great guy), but I have to narrow this down somehow. Same for PS Audio, Modwright, Cary, Mola Mola, etc.

A dealer within driving distance owns an ARC 5SE (green board) and a Rogue RP9, and I'm going this week to hear them as he's moving them to his listening room so I can A/B them. The ARC is his in his personal collection of preamps (until he upgrades to a 6SE later this year), but the Rogue RP9 is for sale; you never know on the ARC since I got him to get it out of his house.

Another dealer within driving distance has the BAT VK-80 and Rogue RP-9, and some of the same speakers as the other dealer; I'm going to see him this week as well. He too said he could be in the 20% discount ballpark.

I found another dealer that is not as close, but my wife is good with the drive.....for a nice dinner; God love her. This dealer has a Rogue RP9 and the Backert Labs preamps; though not similar speakers. That drive will be next Saturday.

Milpai, thank you for reminding me to ask for discounts, I was able to get 22% off of one of my favorites, and the above mentioned 20%.

Rmdmoore, I agree that I want to keep the 6SN7 models on the list.....that would include the Don Sachs Revelation (Raven I've also read), and the Aric Audio Motherlode XL. The idea of small batch, point to point wiring, and ease of upgrade appeals to me as well.

I would love to hear all those contenders. I own the Linear Tube Audio Microzotl preamp. Since placing it into my system, I’ve lost interest in upgrading my preamp. I still think about upgrading my Dac, or possibly my tube amps at some point in the distant future, but have a hard time conceiving parting with the LTA preamp. 
 

It has the sonic attributes you mentioned are of interest to you. And it looks handsome on my rack. It’s just a joy to own and listen to. 

+1 for BAT preamps.  I have all BAT gear and over the past number of years have moved up the line to my present system (my system profile is not up to date, at all).  The BAT preamps check all the boxes that you mentioned, plus some.  The best value going would be a quality used VK-33SE.  It sold new for $10K and can be had for around half that.  It was replaced by the next generation, only last year.  Simply outstanding product in parts quality, build quality, and sound quality.

The new Modwright LS99 is in your price range. Balanced. I haven’t heard it, but have enjoyed the Ambrose  One for about 6 years.

You may want to check out a used BAT preamp. They're built like a tank and sound great.

@soix 

Someone above mentioned the yellow board was the old board so perhaps the brown board is the new one?

The brownish/yellowish board was the first Ref5se and the green board was the later version. I've owned both and there was no discernible difference in sound. 

My friend just moved up the AR chain with a used AR Preamp he bought from Steve at VAS. I didn't pay attention to model numbers, but I visited, compared the old and new to him one, distinctly better, especially imaging.

Also better in Mono, no wander up/dn the frequencies either Ella's or Louis voices

I think he said Steve had two of them, you might give Steve a call and see what he has, AR or other, get any advice ...

He has so much equipment he doesn't advertise, it's ridiculous.

Someone above mentioned the yellow board was the old board so perhaps the brown board is the new one?

@vthokie83 

if the current owner will share the serial number you should be able to reach out to Audio Research to get history on the Ref 5se.  I would do it anyway just to know for sure what you are considering to purchase.  Good luck. 

@jc4659 

Thank you for the kind remarks! Aric gets an A+ for customer service as well. I have over 50 emails to him and he returned everyone of them. I had so many questions because I was brand new to tubes and he took the time to make sure I knew what I was getting.

The Mola Mola Makua preamp (many say) sounds as good as many 30K preamps. I think current MSRP is 13K or so. Presumably this is out of range for your budget based n what I have red. If you can find a used one...go for it! They are built like tanks and sound INCREDIBlE

@maxdukecapone Those are stunning!

hsounds,

I did find an ARC 5SE, and the owner says it has the "brown" board.....not sure if that is a newer or older version, do you happen to know?

I am extremely pleased with my @aricaudio Motherload XL! Take a look at my system pics. It is replacing a $15k Luxman c900 preamp. The 300B Pset amp is a winner as well!

+1 Audio Research, as contemporary as you can afford.

I've been researching in this same space for a while as well - looking at the same pre's!  I've sort of narrowed my search down to a top 3 - but found that direct comparisons without buying all 3 are next to impossible.  The 3 i'm most interested in are the Atma-Sphere MP-3, the Aric Audio XL, and the new Don Sachs Revolution.  Only the A-S shows up used, as it has been made for a while.  The outlier to me is the Supratek line - also gets great reviews.  Good luck in your search and I'll be following for sure.

I own an ARC Ref 5se. You can get these for under 6k. The yellow circuit boards are the older ones. So you can save about 1k on those. Unless you have absolute proof of tube life I would get new regardless of what the hour clock says. ( it can be reset in 30 seconds. I did put new tubes in mine. It will cost you $500-$1k. It is worth it. The SE version is a big deal so stick with that. I have a SS amp pushing my speakers. All that matters is that amp matches your speaker as long as you get the SE version. The output is different from the SE and non se. Typically when people sell these it is because they went to the 6SE which is even a more amazing preamp. It should be for $18k. That’s what it takes to beat the REF 5SE, $12k to 13k. Just find a Ref 5 SE and call it a day. I hope this helped. 

Here's a reference level preamp that is quite phenomenal and competes with units costing 3 times more...

Wig

4P1L Line stage | simplepleasuretubeamps
https://simplepleasuretubeamps.com/products/

I own the 10 tube AUDIO-GD HE-1 XLR at $5,000....haven't heard a pre under 10K that is as "musical".....call Underwood Hi Fi.

looking at the suggestions, never heard any of them,

IF you don't need a tape loop, I would think long and hard about the BHK. stop doing something, or sell something to get the add'l $

Aside from ...... it has dedicated remote balance on the remote control which I use to perfect individual tracks that benefit from a small tweak.

btw: it's not always the track, sometimes a connection making a very slight difference somewhere in the system, a tube no longer perfectly matched, a speaker wire or inter-connect connection either end making a speck less contact ... can result in slightly imprecise balance, might only show up at certain temperatures,

IOW, you cannot expect perfect matching of everything all the time.

ellajeanelle

Designed by Bascom H. King

BHK Signature Preamplifier – PS Audio

Lots of great options mentioned here. I would add Rogue Audio RP-7 to your list.