Help. System sounds thin and bright or harsh

My preamp has been the thing I loved the most… still is, my Audio Research Reference 6SE… the heart of my system. 👍

I think I need to try a different pre amp the ooomph has gone away. Not as bright and brittle but less weight.  

Unfortunately a better preamp will help, larger speakers, and swapping the amp. It just sounds each will make a pretty big difference, but one itself is unlikely to make the full jump you want. 
 

If you come to that conclusion as well. Typically it is best to start by choosing speakers first. They are the most important component of a compatible system (with well chosen equal level components). As true as this is, I always have valued my preamp most and would get this right (and the very best I could afford) and then  carry it over more than one system upgrade. 
 

"A pair of subs"

they won't make the sound warmer. It's going to be surgical to sync them up with the Harbeths

Another update  and reversal.  Spoke with Mark at Reno HIFI where the Pass amp came from (x250.5) After telling me that the amp is likely not the culprit and describing what I SHOULD hear if something in the amp was failing. I finally hooked up the balanced outs from the Modwright/Oppo directly to the amp using the variable output for volume control. (many here had suggested that, Im just a slow study)  Much better, smoother but kind of laid back lacking a little in dynamics.

Then, per Mark, pulled out the stock power chord to the amp and disconnected amp from the power conditioner via after market chord and used stock chord from wall straight into amp. Better still, Parasound JC2 is now out of the mix...power conditioner still handles modified disc player.  Gonna pursue future upgrades from this particular set up.  Front end first, I think.  Still wondering if a better preamp might bring more to the party???  

@cymivka

Somehow I sound like the contrarian here, but I don’t wish to. I was just wondering if you don’t happen to have an old receiver or such that you can put in your system just to verify your findings that the amp is to blame?  I think that is the simplest way to figure things out.

I am sure you are right, but I would certainly want to verify my findings in a more solid way before spending $1,000s for amps that may not match the Pass and more for sending it in if by chance that it is not the culprit.

Now if you have the itch for new amps, full steam ahead.

@cymivka 

You figured it out yourself! That's some good sleuthing on your part. As someone who has worked in customer service and support for many years I have found that my customers often figure the problem out themselves while we're on the phone. I somehow help them by just being available to bounce ideas off of and go over plausible causes.

@ejspain2020 good luck with your project! 

Some hopeful news...glad you didn't throw the baby out with the bath water:)

UPDATE

Thanks all. As i mentioned, looks like it IS the Pass Labs amp.  Powered down all components overnight...turned it on the next morning things were very much improved. THEN, next day, turned everything off EXCEPT for the Pass and things were still way off the next day. Am going to trade out the Pass amp (which Ive had for almost 10 years) for digital mono blocks just to confirm this. Then get the Pass to Reno HIFI or wherever is suggested for an overhaul.  Also thinking if the Pass needs some capacitors replaced it couldnt hurt to send the Parasound jc2 in for a good check up at the same time.  

Silver lining:  In moving the speakers and listening position all around the room in chasing down the sound gremlin (as many suggested) I think I have a perfect starting point for speaker placement once all the gear is up to spec.  The speakers ended up closer to the rear wall and a tad further away from sidewalls with fairly aggressive toe-in. Sounded a lot like I remembered on favorite recordings after the total power down test.

A pair of subs and new front end are still on the wish list.

@macg19 great points. Hope he gets it figured out. Completely understand how this can be frustrating. I'm about to go down the rabbit whole of adding a new processor so hopefully I don't lose more hair integrating...I'm already bald😉

@ejspain2020 The OP didn't complain about not getting deep bass his issue is "System sounds thin and bright or harsh".

The 50Hz spec is correct but that doesn't account for the room. As an example the 'heartbeat' in Breathe sounds remarkably good from a 50Hz midrange driver - even my local dealer was surprised - (I brought a 1979 MOFI issue in as one of my test records) 

If you want REALLY full, deep bass with the 30.1 / 30.2 you'd need subs as others have mentioned. I use 2 REL T/9x, but turning them off doesn't make my system sound bright/harsh nor does it sound like they are suddenly lacking good bass.

Adding 2 RELs was way less than going up to the 40.2's, which was my calculus but most people buy Harbeth's for it's mid-range performance and their overall range is where most of the music is, depending on what kind of music you listen to.

E.g. an open E on a bass guitar is 41Hz 

Have you ever gotten good bass from the Harbeths? The specs says they only dip down to about 50hz so not much deep bass will show up. I know it’s a completely different animal but I’m running Martin Logan Impresions with a Parasound A31 and its a beautiful relationship. Very good balance in all octaves and never harsh. Solving your issue through a forum is nearly impossible because whatever scientific recommendation given doesn’t change your ears. Until now you’ve done it all right. I haven’t read all the responses but by now you may have figured out your next move is to keep adjusting speaker placement, properly treat your space, and maybe try other cables. I’ve found cardas to be naturally bright (for my ears in my system) Happy listening.

@cymivka I have not reread everything, so I am going from memory if I write something already mentioned.  

First, try another pair of speakers before hauling your amp off for repairs.  From what I have read pass gear is fairly bulletproof.  We're not talking testing for sonic nuisances here, were testing if something is big time wrong and your Harbeths or amp are not functioning properly.

I would try changing the speaker connections on one of the speakers only, so the negative black speaker wire is attached to the red positive connector on the speaker.  This will tell you if a whole speaker was wired out of phase.

Last, I would try @peter_s post to verify that individual drivers within a speaker have not been hooked up out of phase.  As he mentions, definitely research the test first to make sure you don't accidentally mess anything up with the battery.  I have done it but only on lesser cost speakers.

Given the large volume of your overall room, I think subs could be helpful. But also, have you tested to make sure that the roofers were not wired out of phase on your speakers? Since the problem occurred in your old room, and this room, it was carried over with the system. there is a test you can do with a 9 V battery which you hook up to the speaker leads, and feel which way the woofer moves, inward or outward. It should be the same on both speakers if you wire at the same way. You might need to research this test. 

I had a similar problem in my reference system.  I had a gain mismatch between my amp and preamp.  I had to turn the gain way down on my Supratek preamp feeding my Coda 16 amp.  Viola, problem solved.

I'm going to say the Harbeths are just not cutting it. Small two way speakers seldom do (unless you like a lean sound). You need a bigger 3 way to get the warm midrange you are looking for. 

Nonsense. I have the 30.2xd's and the warm midrange was the #1 reason why I got them. They are not lean. They fill the room which is wide open plan.

I'm driving mine with 35wpc Raven Audio Osprey.

ah! Im a luddite (LOL) I have no internet interface with the system whatsoever. Silly, cuz I need to get into down loading and maybe streaming but want to do it right and there are SO many paths to follow.  Need to research.

But I now feel the amp is my current problem. left it on all day while powering down the rest of the components. Sound was not very good. Its a bummer cause the amp is massively heavy making for a bitch of a job to send off to the maker for repairs. Oh well,

@audioguy85 

But, but, what if buying new and different stuff doesn't fix anything?

@raysmtb1 

I don't know who "runs the Internet" but there are indeed fluctuations in the quality of the music I get out of my streamer depending on day and time

I listen all day every day. I think that during the day when the Internet is busy, the streaming signal is thinned out. If you listen on a Sunday morning versus Thursday afternoon at 5 o’clock, I bet you’ll find your system sounds different. I can’t prove anything but I think that the people that run the Internet know what signals are important and what was urges music, and they thin out the ones that are music because they’re not as important as other files. There it is that’s my crazy theory

Class A Sugden and Tannoy speakers will fix all that....

Very interesting. Sound from the system in a test last night dropped out to there was no meat on the bones of the sound.  so bad I quickly changed tubes for the oppo output...still very anemic and brittle sound.  Decided to power the whole system down overnight. Nothing even on stand Transformer going hay wire capacitors overloaded.  Anyone experience this before???

@cymivka "I'm itchin for a new front end..dac and MAYBE transport."

That could be the ticket.

As for the Oppo settings. They are pretty straight forward punched up on a tv screen. .Gone through them many times. Of course once settings are confirmed, I turn tv off and hit the "pure audio" button

no coiled or ribbon cables...FYI  And I have suspected the Oppo being modded. Never heard it on its own...shipped it straight to Modwright for all the bells and whistles.. Have not been impressed with claims that tubes will last thousands of hours. Changed out an identical set once just for fun and couldnt believe the difference the new ones made. Old ones were not even a thousand hours old. Who knows, maybe a bad batch.   I'm itchin for a new front end..dac and MAYBE transport.

Hey all    really do wanna get back to much more toe in as Im' missing notes that used to jump out but I can't do it yet..vocals get too in your face at higher volumes. (wasn't quite as bad an issue in the old listening room)

Mismatch in outputs could explain a lot. The Oppo does have variable volume that I  currently have set at 86 out of 100. I believe Modwright recomends full 100 for more "oomph".  Probably CAN try the Oppo as a pre amp. Never have but now I have a good reason.

Tomcar asked how Im' measuring speakers from the rear wall....from the rear of the speaker not the front. Now at 2 feet two inches. Trying that for awhile along with seat position moved forward a bit. Probably gonna throw some extra toe-in to see what that does...as suggested.

Using cloth at first deflection points on side walls now til I order the real deal down the road.  Still think it could be a source issue as very good recordings sound pretty good/engaging. To me the system sounds very anemic off axis.  

One other thing….you don’t have any of your cables coiled do you?  Depending on insulation levels, you can get capacitance or inductance when cooling that can negatively impact performance. This can be a huge issue with ribbon style cables.  

My guess is that there is a setting somewhere in the preamp or Oppo that is completely not obvious and takes diving into several settings/screens to get to that was accidentally set.

Just wondering, you don't think this has anything to do with the modding of the Oppo?

Okay….couple thoughts.  The move closer to the wall is giving you a bit of gain which is common.  You get about 3dB from the wall.  Move into the corner and it will jump to about 6dB.  But you will lose refinement. 
 

I am not seeing good measurements of those speakers but I do believe Harbeth s are best when toed in toward the seating position.  What you can’t assume is that you are getting a softer, less edgy sound because you are off axis.  I have a set of speakers that I make where they absolutely brightest when they are toed in about 10%.  When you toe them into the seating position they border on dark.  I am not saying it will be best fully toed but you should try it.

you have a tough room from a setup perspective.  You can do a few things.  You can experiment with treatments both to soften the treble and to enhance the bass.  What would be most interesting would be to get a full range microphone and measure at your seating position the frequency response.  This will let you see what the room is doing to the frequency response.

finally, there is nothing obviously causing the edginess you are experiencing.  I do run into this when there is a mismatch in terms of gain and impedance between components.  Too little or too much gain can or too weak or too strong of a signal from any component leads to that hard edginess.  
 

might want to try a preamp with adjustable inputs and outputs.  

Schitt Audio has a few inexpensive passive EQ devices.  I use Roon, which conveniently has a built-in DSP function.  Guaranteed to ameliorate audiophile angst and make listening a lot more fun.  😁 

A more costly, but effective device is the DSpeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 which has gotten high marks from Robert Greene @ The Absolute Sound, and others.

There are no perfect audio components, rooms, recordings, or ears.

Several have mentioned if you place the speakers close to the front wall you will decrease the depth of your soundstage.

I have found that to not be true in my dedicated listening room with acoustic treatment all across the front wall, side walls, rear wall and ceilings.

Plus, there is no TV between the speakers (remember it's a dedicated listening room), and no rack of gear between the speakers.

My speakers are B&W 803 D3s with the backs of them 8" from the front wall and get a wonderful 3D soundstage if the recording is done well.

@cymivka,

The DAC is the Musician Aquarius. There's some reviews out there but not a whole lot. If you watch the youtube review by Tharbamer my dac is the actual one in his video as I made some trades with him. 

OP- are you measuring the back or the front of the speakers from the front wall?

Scott, @verdantaudio, mentioned it above. Swap components out.  Doesn't the Oppo have volume control? Or does it get disabled with the mods? If it still has the volume control remove the preamp and see how it sounds using the Oppo as the "preamp". I find it hard to believe there isn't something else going on with either a component or the speakers so I would sub out preamp first, then amp (if you have anything at all, even an old receiver) then sub the source. I have those Harbeths and have used Pass stuff with them. You could use dental floss as cables and it won't sound as bad as your saying. No way any decent quality cable will make that huge of a difference unless your listening at like 110dB. There's something else going on.

In my room traps and absorbers behind the listening position did not work out so well. 

I'm not familiar with your speakers, but FWIW since you're moving them around....

IME, floor and bass driver interface (distance between the bass driver and the floor as well as the side walls) goes a long way in determining bass reinforcement. I think someone suggested tilting back your speaker already but lowering your speakers height, which may seem counter intuitive, off the floor in combination with the tilt would make a better bass response. What I would try just to see if lowering the speaker would help just get them up about a foot off the floor (and tilted back so the tweeter axis is pointed at your ears). And go from there. BTW if you want to keep the sense of depth of image keep them as far away from the back wall as possible.

Just pushed the harbeths closer to the front wall (from 3' 2" to 2'2")  tried before and after moving seating position forward. First impressions are it sounds a lot worse.  No increase in bass. This seems to run counter to the laws of speaker physics. LOL.  "Something" seems to be sucking some of the bottom end out.  I'm not a bass junky either and I realize the 30.1's bottom out at 50HZ. Excellent recordings are still tolerable but jeese this is crazy.  I am noticing that the volume is a lil higher to get the same sound level. That's a lil odd. So I'm compensating for something with the volume control. Maybe things are a little less lean...but not as loud.???  Isn't this fun!!!

Happy listening

Room treatment is on the agenda.  I went through this in the old place with stacking four foot bass traps in corners behind the spks and a massive wool and canvass behemoth behind the couch and an absorber on the wall just behind the seating position. Overdamped to say the least for the 30.1's. Had been trying to tame Harbeth slh5's that were just way too boomy for my apartment. With the 30.1's I took out all the treatments cept for the trap behind the couch and the absorber behind the seat and found I liked the sound much better. Going to try simple cloth or rug options in this new room just as a test once I determine that all the components are performing up to spec.  I've already checked out treatments for the first reflective points on the side walls. Wanna keep it simple and relatively cheap.

Someone mentioned toe in.  I barely have any at all. Adviser at Fidelis that distributes Harbeths said to point them directly at me with hard toe in.  No bueno in this room.  They are not firing straight out but I can see all of the inside walls on both spks.  Not sure if many have purchased the "Get Better Sound" book by Jim Simith.  It's loaded with all sorts of "free" tips...many which I am just up to tackling and sdI still am having problems.. 

I suspect it’s the room. Throwing money at cables, other speakers, and so forth, seems ill-advised. And don’t some audiophiles just LOVE to spend lots of money in in their pursuit of Nirvana?

Perhaps contacting one of the acoustic panel companies for a consultation would prove to be beneficial. One of the most effective and economical improvements is SQ I’ve made was to assemble 2’ x 4’ x 6" bass traps for the front corners on my rather "bright-sounding" listening room. The 6 Owens-Corning sheets cost about $100, wood for frames about $35, and some inexpensive white burlap about $40. I plan to make a few more thinner (2") panels for first reflection points, and perhaps elsewhere.

Mofojo     Very curious about your R2r dac choice????   Denafrips??? Ive checked out a few based on another discussion I had about possibly ditching the Modwright or using the Oppo digital outs as a disc transport since the Oppo plays everything. You may have made a recommendation.. (didn;t see any pics on your profile and I hope to upload pics of my system soon) Pretty sure I want to a stand alone dac as the technology seems to change fairly often.

Thanks.

Yes, subs as are NOT out of the question as I think its pretty common "knowledge" that two are needed for proper two channel set ups. I've been reading that for years now.

Got time to attack this situation today. gonna start with pushing speakers back against the wall, though most advise that Harbeths need space around them. Dont want to collapse the depth of the sound stage. Will also play with moving the listening position. Gonna also try changing out the amp as I have access to nuforce 9 mono blocs that will accept balanced feed. Gotta track down Pre and cd player if these other "fixes" havn't exposed the problem. ( tried the second set of balanced outs on the Parasound and one channel, the right, was clearly louder than the other...still bright, though.) Not sure about a bass null since the problem followed me from room to room.and through a myriad of speaker placements.  I feel like if an expert or fellow, experienced a-goner was in the room, they'd be able to help pinpoint the problem. Just about everyone says its hard to make the 30.1's sound bright.   Just may need to upgrade many parts (front end for sure)..ad subs or even new speaks. If I had to make a wild guess I'd point an accusing finger at the Modwright,.  Thanks all for your suggestions. 

 I have a small room with Parasound Halo, B&W 805d3, Arcam ST60 streamer and two Rel 7x subs. I don’t have expense cables and my room is 12x12 with some glass on sides. I have been looking to help make the bass cleaner for hearing bass lines for music. I read comments about bass nulls as well and the feedback was to add subs and using pairs will help cancel the nulls. Not sure I have all the terminology correct here. I used an XTZ room analyzer to adjust my subs and it helped. I have had some feedback to use a Minidsp Flex with subs and perform the sub-optimizer then use Dirac live adjustments to fix for room issues. Also a thought for myself is whether or not my ears are losing bass frequency? Not sure any of this fits for you as there is a lot of feedback on your question. Good luck

Will Kline is his name.   

Consider starting over with speaker placement using the Sonus Faber method.  Easy and effective.  Presented by Will (can’t remember his last name).  
 

you can always go back to your current setup 

Try moving your speakers back towards the wall a bit to augment the bass and consider adding a sub.

@cymivka ,  I'm sorry to hear of your frustration. This must be especially annoying given the quality of your system. 

I agree with the folks who say try adding a pair of good subwoofers.  I prefer REL. 

Keep us posted. It's always nice to see one of our fellow hobbyists resolve their issue with satisfaction.

You could be sitting in a bass null. Cutting the bass and hearing a lot more of the highs. I would play with listening position and speaker placement. Any way to measure the system? REW? Test tones and sound meter? That will tell you quite a bit.