Heard the B&W N804d3s ...

Thanks to everyone for their comments and advice. I'm now one very happy camper.

Hey rlb61, congrats on the success. I’m coming in late, but read your thread with interest. I’ve owned B&W in the past, loved the 805 series. I’ve written in other threads how the new D3 are really nice, and sound great, but for the incremental improvement the cost is somewhat (that word may be an understatement) disproportionate. Like you, I have a small room, and had good success with a sealed sub (REL Strata III). Glad to see it worked out without having to spend huge money and without giving up on speakers you still enjoyed.

Success!

Thanks, Scott.

@rlb61 

Congratulations, enjoy, sounds like the Rhythmik is doing a great job.

Cheers,

Scott

UPDATE ... So, I received the L12 yesterday and have integrated it into my system with a cross-over at about 55Hz. Integration was seamless and quite easy. The L12 has made a huge difference in that: (a) it gives me that extra bit of articulate, bottom "oomph" for which I have been looking without sounding boomy; and (b) mids and highs have more clarity and presence, perhaps due to relieving the cross-overs from digging down deep. This is my first experience with a sealed subwoofer and it has really improved my system and listening experience tremendously ... plus, it has prevented me from spending $9K on new speakers, just to get that little "extra" low end which the L12 provides in abundance.

rlb61, 

I cannot say if the bass above 25 or 30 Hz is noticeably better represented on the F12 than the L12's, as I was going to try them but went a different direction. They are both well regarded by users.  I did try two smaller sealed SVS subs in a room about twice the size of your listening space to match with some Monitor Audio stand mounts, and sent them back as they just didn't have the sound quality I was looking for.  I replaced with B&W PV1D and and extremely happy with that. I own a PSB sub in another system that lists for more than the speakers and find it very musical. YMMV.

The L12 may do the trick with the 804's, but there are good reasons to buy a high quality sub beyond it's low frequency capability, not the least of which being speed, tone, and integration with your speaker's bass drivers. No matter what, I recommend a decent sound level meter and some analysis software to help you tune your sub to your speakers and your room.  Enjoy.

kn

Just never spend more than you can easily afford. I have heard better speakers, but my trusty old 803's with subs keep me happy enough. If I wanted to have ecstatic listening experiences. I would go see Jethro Tull, Alice Cooper, Pink floyd, Heifitz, Oscars Peterson, etc. OH, I DID! 

@knownothing ... I agree with you that the N804s are basically monitors with built-in stands. The purpose of the sub in this application is not to get the lowest bass possible, but simply to embellish the existing bass slightly. For my very small room with space limitations, the L12 should be quite sufficient, both cone-wise and size-wise ... Enrico, from Rhythmik, agrees with this. After I get the L12 set up and integrated, I’ll post the results. If this doesn't work, I likely will keep the sub, sell the N804s, and purchase stand-mounted speakers. My fingers are crossed.

A used pair of 805's have been what I really want to use, but many on here have talked about the Ascend Sierra 2.  There are a fair number of good choices in sub $2000 range.

Now if life would just quit getting in the way with medical bills and car breakdowns :)

I have the N802's bought new in 2004.
1. I personally feel my N802's appearance looks better than the   
    current 802's. I'm not just saying this, they really look better.
    They way those lower 8 inch drivers stick out like they do
      looks awful.
 
2. I really don't care what anybody says but the mid-range and highs
     on mine sound better
3. Yes, there is more bass on the current 802's but it's just too much.
     The bass on mine are lean as most people say but it is much
      tighter and I prefer a tighter bass to excessive bass any day.
       I only want bass to be reproduced when there is bass and that
       is what my N802's do. I don't want bass coming out when
       there is no bass in the music.
4.  Are the current 802's worth the extra money over the older N802's
      ??? LOL   Absolutely not.
 5.  Find an older pair of N802's or N801's in very good condition
      or better and save some major bucks. Use the savings and buy
      more music.

whyowhy:

The CM5 that  you ve gotten are some of the musically satisfying speakers at any price.... You are not going find anything that much better till you go up 805 D3s, or Chario Sonnets, both at about 6 grand... And even then, CM5s can hold their own.. I ve owned them and sold them to foot a bill for a 17 thousand floorstanders..But I miss them dearly.. Still use the  smaller CM1s on my desktop and those are fantastic as well.... So hang on to those me thinks :)

A good sub should sound good with the 804's and actually will do more to the perceived sound than just add lower bass.  The 804's are basically very revealing older monitors with "built-in stands", as opposed to full range speakers.  I agree with other posts that room size will limit lowest bass you can experience in your listening room (but not necessarily down the hall!). For this reason I would shoot for quality of bass rather than trying to buy down your Hz.

Try the Rythmik and see how that works. For the quality of the rest of your system, you might be happier with the F12. Another option for a small room is the B&W PV1D or the PSB Subseries 450.  Anyway you cut it, good bass is expensive.

kn

I have some old B&W 602's in my office system.  I have tried different amps and pre's with them.  I am currently running 2 Carver 65x2 amps that I just had serviced and recapped, one to each speaker biamped.  They sound great.

My local Best Buy had a pair of open box CM5's that they gave me a great price on.  I brought them home and they were very slightly better.  They had a bit better sound stage and clarity, but the difference was minor. I am also a huge believer in diminishing returns and I didn't think it was a $900 upgrade.

I have been looking for a replacement bookshelf, but haven't been able to decide what to get.  I have demoed speakers that are much more expensive and running on better gear and I don't think they sound as good as what I have.  I agree that you need to demo in your own space.

" The old aluminium tweeters of the Nautilus line you own can sound harsh. "

For me, listening to B&W aluminum tweeters is like cleaning your ears with an icepick. 

" Audio is not based on what you read in paid magazines, but is based on the results you get during shootouts and tests. They give you the real and True information you want and need."

I stopped reading reviews years ago. You really don't need them. I think most audiophiles are afraid to make a decision on their own. I understand, because a mistake can cost a lot of money, but if you take the time and learn to do it yourself, you get much better results.    

@shadorne ... that's exactly what I intend to do for now. I just want a little "oomph" in the bottom end, that's all. I really like the sound of the N804s. The 804d3s are no slouches, trust me, and they are a bit of a different flavor; however, to me, that flavor simply doesn't appear to justify $9 grand worth of ice cream.

B&W have quite a variety in sound between models and over the years. I don't think you can simply think of them progressing linearly with minor tweaks but they do produce good quality consistently but often changes are different cosmetics and flavours.

In that sense - stick to what you have!!!!

Have you tried a tube amp?

Several years ago I had a Rotel amp driving my speakers. Upgradeitis hit and bought B&W 804S. Big improvement in some ways but now I could hear the limitations of the Rotel.

I auditioned the speakers with some amps and like McIntosh. Final round was with McIntosh MC275 (tubes, 75W) and MC252 (solid state, 250W). I preferred the MC275, which I still have.

Later I added two Rythmiks 12" subs. BTW, they have aluminum cones (not paper) and are servo driven. Great addition.

Later I went active crossover. Now we are talking!! The MC275 drives tweeter and midrange with the passive xo in place. I removed the woofer to midrange passive xo and have Hypex 400W mono blocks driving the woofers directly, crossed at 80Hz to the subs with another active xo.

The heart of the system is a multi way DAC and Acourate software to do digital room correction. might sound like blasphemy to many, but it actually sounds better than ever before.

Cheers!

The old aluminium tweeters of the Nautilus line you own can sound harsh. This is based on the older technique and limited frequency range.

For a subwoofer there are other rules that counts compared to a loadspeaker. In the past I have sold many Rel subwoofers. But to be honest they are rather slow.

In 2015 we compared a few new Rel subwoofers with Monitor Audio subwoofers. These outperformed the Rel subwoofers with ease.

The problem is that Rel spends more money on paid reviews. So people think they are the best. In real they are not the best anymore.

In the last 4 years I sold many Monitor Audio subwoofers which I could use till 120hz because I can set them in phase with S.A.P.- measurement.

When you use a subwoofer who is a lot faster in response you can use it till a much higher frequency. This sets the influence of a subwoofer to a much higher level. This is only possible based on the lighter material they use.

Rel subwoofers can be used till about 80hz, when you would like to use till 120hz, you will hear that they are too slow in response. The control and grip will be gone.

Audio is not based on what you read in paid magazines, but is based on the results you get during shootouts and tests. They give you the real and True information you want and need.

" You should have spend more money on a subwoofer if I were you. I would buy a subwoofer with a ceramic/aluminium coating."

What sub did you have in mind? Not many speakers have drivers like that. I think Monitor Audio and possibly Avalon. 

" Given that the B&Ws have aluminum tweeters, I wanted to compensate for that by a different type of material. Hopefully, it will be fine."

It doesn't really work like that. Unless you somehow over power your main speakers with bass, you should hear little to no change in the highs. If you have an issue with your tweeters, deal with that directly.  

Will do. It should arrive early next week.

Would like to hear your results after adding the subwoofer.

Given that the B&Ws have aluminum tweeters, I wanted to compensate for that by a different type of material. Hopefully, it will be fine.

The Rhythmik L12 is a subwoofer with a driver made of paper. Paper is an outdated material these days. Beside this paper has it’s own kind of sound. It is not the most natural soud.

You should have spend more money on a subwoofer if I were you. I would buy a subwoofer with a ceramic/aluminium coating.

Yep. Ordered a Rhythmik L12, which is a sealed unit. Hope it does the trick.

Timing is a key factor to the level of acoustic problems you can get in a room. When a loudspeaker has a faster response you will have less acoustic limitations.

B&W is not the fastest and their older series are even rather slow compared to most speakers today. A subwoofer can be a good option, but again you still need a sibwoofer with a fast response. Choose always for a  sealed subwoofer.

Even when a subwoofer has it's  own roomacoustic measurment system, it is still not in phase with the front loudspeaker.

You need a system what is able to measure both speakees and subwoofer togheter. In that situation you will always be able to outperfrom any loudspeaker system for the same money without a subwoofer.

@wlutke ... Thanks for the suggestion. I’m kind of stuck in this converted bedroom as all other available space is taken up. So, I will try the sub since the lowest FR of the N804s is 45Hz +/- 2dB, which is a bit lean even when compared to some monitors; the sub may fill in the deficient area. Since I listen to 2-channel only, and don’t do HT, FR from the sub at even 30Hz should do the trick. If that doesn’t work, I may just keep the sub and sell the N804s for a monitor speaker.

I had a similar sized room with the much lesser B&W DM640’s. They worked well with a high current amp (Classe CA-150) but were very lean with other amps I tried. They were too hot for nearfield though and I upgraded to Vandersteen 3A (now Sigs) to cure that and loaded the room with treatments. It sounded OK at best. I did demo a sub and found sub 30 Hz could not be heard in the room but down the hall it was plain as day. Eventually I moved the system to a 3x larger room and placed the speakers at each end of the couch I sit on. Ideal? No way. But the speakers opened up and breathed life into the music in that larger space. There’s imaging but no soundstage so in a way it’s like headphones. I’m fine with that. The quality of the music makes the system sound so much better than the loss of soundstage. So here’s my take. The room is too small for full range speakers. A sub may help but not below 30 Hz. Maybe try a bigger room even if speaker placement is compromised. You could find out like I did that you're missing a lot more than you think.

Given the size of my room, 9x10x8, the 800N or 802D2 are way too big for the space. In the current line-up, I would have to look at either the 804 or 805.

I have doen thousands of tests in audio. We always test each part on how much depth it can build. These are not parts based on personal preference, but based on real differences.

Denon is a 2 dimensional brand. This means it build less than 1 metre of stage depth. Even with the best speakers who are able to create stage depth.

It is very easy to compare and test. First you need to know the DNA of each single part of your system.


The paper low drivers of the 802N are extreemly slow compared to drivers of new loadspeakers. The crossovers are also very limited. The 20khz tweeter is also very limited based on technique compared to tweeters who are available these days.

I too have auditioned the 800D3 at a presentation put on by B&W at my local Paragon botique, here in Michigan. Power and pre-sources were driven by the latest D’Agostino Progression monoblocks, and Momentum pre-amp., wired with uber-high-end Transparent cable.

I must say I have to respectfully disagree with the above assessment of lack of stage depth and width. What I heard was transparency on Joanne Shaw Taylor’s "Blackest Day", as if guitar was in the room directly hooked up to the amp. Depth so nuanced on a couple of vocal tracks from Tom Jones’ "Nobody’s Fault But Mine", and Joss Stone’s "I Had A Dream", were laid bare absent speakers... In my experience B&W’s stage depth lends to the unique texture of each performer’s vocals. Bass extension was just short of subwoofer depths but definitely not missed on Chuck Deardorf’s "Moon And Sand".

So impressed with the presentation and being an 802N owner, I returned home to play the very same tracks, and some familiar pieces that were kindly played for me by B&W’s U.S. division president. My setup with ASW-800 subwoofer, Parasound JC1’s, Denon AVP-A1 3D (Upgrade Co. Moded), Audioquest cables.
Upon listentening in my room’s evironment with treatments and collective synergy, my 802’s (ironically toed-in the same degrees) had everything heard on the 800D3’s... Just not in the inth degree the way guitar sounded directly hooked up to amp. as on the D3’s (and this is in absolutely by no means any slight or knock on the new 800 series’ worth).

So as one poster stated that listening to the new speakers in your room’s environment with your electronics is most ideal. Room treatments are invaluable, and you may consider going up the line of previous iterations. I think my next upgrade will be the 800N’s or D2’s.

I owned the 802N ( Which I bought brand new in 1999) and the 800S. ( Which I bought when they were only 3 months old)

But when I audtioned the 800D1, I knew I would not buy B&W again. This is based on the fact that B&W misses a few important parts which are essential for highend audio.

Stage depth and width are essential parts for highend audio. Because this brings music closer to you during listening and makes it more intense.

The 800S and the 800D1 were able to create 1 metre of depth, this is in fact a hifi stereo parameter. When we auditioned the 800D3 with the most expensive Esoteric power, pre and source ( which can create a lot of stage depth) again the stage had 1 metre of depth. They call it highend audio, but in real we are talking about hifi stereo parameters.

The 804D3 costs 9000 euro, again this is still a lot of money for a hifi stereo loudspeaker.

@ mb1audio ... My speakers used to be set up in dining room/living room combination in my old condo. It was the same issue back then ... I think the fact that the N804s lowest frequency response is 42 -45 Hz is the problem for me. While the bass is tuneful, it’s missing that tiny bit of "oomph" for which I’m looking.

@ smac ... Not sure that the speakers are too big for the room. A monitor speaker likely would result in the same circumstance given their similar and typical frequency response to the N804. I’ll try the sub to see if that makes a positive difference, and then will post the results.

Thanks to all for your input.

@rlb61 

Positioning will have a big affect on the results you get from a speaker that size in a room that small. If you haven't, you might want to try a diagonal set-up with the speakers firing from one corner to the opposite corner.

You have a great system. I bet you can get satisfying results by experimenting with placement. My only concern (and I'm just speculating) is that the 804N might actually be too big for your room. I don't have experience with a speaker that size in a room that size; maybe others who do will chime in on that.

Cheers,

Scott

I didn't have time to get into this before, but there's a reason I asked you to listen to your system with the door open. A 9x10x8 room is very small, and is almost a cube. This poses some problems. The lower the frequency, the longer the sound wave. In order to hear low frequencies, the room has to be large enough for the wave to form. If the wave is longer than the room, it can't happen. A sub may be of no use to you.

I recommend you do another test. Set your system up temporarily in a larger room. If you get more bass, Its probably the room itself that's holding you back. 

Thanks for the suggestions, folks. After due consideration, I’ve decided to keep my N804s and supplement them with a sub ... specifically, a Rhythmik L12. If I don’t like the sub, I can return it for a full refund within 45 days. Also, I played around with positioning a bit, and there was a point where the speakers appeared to snap into focus ... don’t know how else to describe it. What do you think of my solution?

" As far as expectations, essentially I would like a bit more bass. I am happy with the speakers otherwise."

Try moving your speakers around a bit. 6 inches to 1 foot from where they are now. 

Also try listening to your system with the door(s) open. 

rib61 - You have some fine speakers already.  If you're really just looking for a bass boost then HSU, SVS, REL, et. al. might be able to help for maybe ~20% (or less...) of what that whole D3 "upgrade" would cost you.  If nothing else, you'll get to play around with what will likely be a very fine subwoofer unit.  And if, in the absolute worst case, you decide you just don't want that new toy then you should be able to sell it off for a decent price.

 Also bass is dependent on speaker positioning and the speakers relationship within the room. There's only so much you can get out of 2 mid size drivers.

My thoughts?

 It is unfair to compare a speaker that is that a store demo to a speaker that you had for years at home that you have tweaked. 

 Your system is not the system at the store.  You have listening biases that you prefer in the store system might not appeal to your listening by us. 

 I find the new D3 to be highly transparent, meaning that it takes the shape and form of the system that you have in front of it. 

 I have the 802 D3. I had the 802D2 prior to the 802 D3 and had I not heard them side-by-side I would not have appreciated such a big difference.  

Thanks, folks. My system is the N804s, a Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista CD, BAT VK-3i preamp, Musical Fidelity A300cr power amp (225 wpc), and Magnum Dynalab MD-102 FM tuner. Cabling is Cardas Golden Reference. Old stuff, I know, but it has served me well and provided many hours of happy listening. As far as expectations, essentially I would like a bit more bass. I am happy with the speakers otherwise. Also, my listeningroom is treated with materials from GIK Acoustics ... the room is small, about 9x10 with 8' ceilings (typical converted bedroom).

Mb1, I agree with your comments. For $9K, rlb61 has more options than the B&W’s. I have always liked the sound of their speakers(B&W), though I have never bought them.
I also second the Vandy’s, but as mb1 pointed out, the OP needs to give some more detail should he want suggestions.

" Mb1 audio ... to which speakers are you referring?"

I wasn't referring to any specific speaker. I don't know anything about your tastes, electronics, room, .... etc. Personally, I think Vandersteen makes the best speakers, but it would be wrong for me to just assume they're the best option for you. As it stands, you have a pair of speakers you already know and like. Its very easy to make a mistake in a situation like this. Maybe if you list more details and expectations, we can suggest some speakers for you to demo.

Mb1 audio ... to which speakers are you referring?

Quite frankly, I still dig the sound and looks of the N804s (which I think are designed nicer than the current model). Just wish it had a bit more bass.  Maybe a really good sub would do the trick.

I had 802's that I got for a consolation present when my first wife died.  I tried to make it work but disappointed at every turn.  I replaced them with Vandersteen speakers.   There is an upgrade for those now which I auditioned.  The upgrade was widely praised by all the reviewers.  When I heard them the sound difference was so very subtle, I decided not to upgrade...the cost was just not worth it for me. ...just sayin'

2 things to consider. First, to make a good comparison, you really need to listen to the new speakers in your room with your electronics. (Yes, I know that's not always convenient, but it is true.) Second, B&W's cost far exceeds the sound quality they deliver. Some of that has to do with how much they put into the appearance of the speaker. Its substantial. And I'm not saying its right or wrong, that's just how it is. For some customers, appearance is very important, and there's nothing wrong with B&W for making products that customers want. 

If you're more concerned with sound quality, and are willing to consider other brands, I know you can get something a lot better than what you have for far less than 9k.