Has the cost of HiFi gotten a bit too much?

One of the most, perhaps the most difficult thing for many to admit (if only to themselves) is that they have been wrong about something or someone; that their opinion was mistaken.  

The small manufacturers still offer great deals search them out.

Economic debates on Audiogon amuse me. It reminds me of the Yogi Berra quote “nobody goes there any more, its too crowded”.

 

When demand outstrips supply, prices rise. While it isn’t quite that simple, its darn close. When certain wages rise (which everyone logically could agree was long overdue) prices rise. Real wages were virtually flat for decades. Demand for raw materials has risen…so have prices. Availability of new items has constricted so natuarally prices of preowned items have risen as well.  The ham radio guys whined when their inexpensive tube supplies began to dry up because of the increase in tube audio gear sales created competition. More people interested, more demand. 

 

What we really have here is when groups fall behind their perceived rightful place economically, they begin to complain and declare the game is rigged. Its more likely than not a disconnect in what some people believe they deserve vs the fact that no one deserves anything except the fair opportunity to succeed and get ahead. Everyone has decisions to make. For instance, it wasnt too long ago when “luxuries” like telephone, cable, a car, air conditioning….a stereo or television were not considered necessities. Somehow these items and more became a right. Remember when eating out was considered a special treat? Remember when “earning” the privilege of a credit card required work?

 

I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone but the idea of going in to debt to acquire a pair of speakers (or any luxury purchase) is pretty darn close to irresponsible. Not saving for retirement and a rainy day fund? Not buying life or health insurance? Who couldnt do the math that when real rates of return on savings were at or near zero that that circumstance required more savings for your future to maintain a certain standard of living? Who really thought that shifting from defined benefit retirement plans to defined contribution plans was better? If you are beyond a certain age and utilize debt to “keep up with the Joneses” you are making catasrophic decisions for your future. Whatever happened to aspiring toward a goal rather than whining about not having soming something? Whatever happened to a responsible adult seeing something that to them is overpriced just moving along…the only cure for irrationally overpriced goods are irrationally overpriced goods? If no one buys them, prices will drop until they find a buyer. The real challenge though is to be honest with ourselves when we something that to us is outrageously overpriced sell like hotcakes. So, are we the sane person in a crazy world or are we the crazy person in a sane world? 

 

So, if someone with a $100k system doesn’t care about the price of their system or resale prices, who’s right? Maybe they sacrificed, made some good choices, got lucky….whatever the reason…Maybe their time is worth more than fretting over a few grand here or there. If you happen to be young enough to secure your financial future, make those decisions. If your stereo is a considerable part of your net worth, maybe you should reevaluate your “asset allocation”. 

Blah blah blah blah blah.  (Oh, did the OP actually pose a question?)

And to think we have to yet endure 3 more years of Biden. I’m amazed how much this idiot has destroyed in little more than a year. The evil Orange man was not so bad, now was he.....when you watch/listen to him speak, it makes you wonder how on God’s great earth was this person elected.

That has to be the most idiotic trolling I've read in a long time.
180º from reality. Alternate reality stuff. Go play on the freeway.

All the best,
Nonoise

we collectively are all really best off sticking to hifi oriented discussions...

anonymous forums without disclosing what qualifications and orientations folks have to discuss politics and macro economic policy creates only heat, and sheds zero light -- it isn’t like anyone with strongly held views will be convinced by anyone else with opposing views, right?

so let’s try to stick to what this place is meant to be about

Wait until the United States starts writing checks for $trillions to rebuild Ukraine.  We will contribute 90% to rebuild Ukraine.  We should send a bill to Russia.  Perhaps tell Russia we will lift some of the sanctions if they pay to rebuild.  As I see it, what does Ukraine have left after their buildings have been destroyed?  We will pay 90% of the cost and allow our allies to take complete advantage of us.

What do the citizens of Ukraine have left to live in?  How many years will they have to wait until they have a place to live?  I think we need to send Putin the bill.  If he doesn't respond with action, then enforce even more sanctions.

+1 @nonoise , it has to be satire right? No one is that aggressively stupid...right?

And now that all the political nonsense is out of the way, let’s address the OP’s actual question. Is the price of high end equipment raising faster than inflation. YES. And the reason is very simple. Suppliers of any product will charge the maximum price the market has shown it is willing to pay. We audiophiles are not special in this reguard. Just ask anyone who has bought a Harley, or Porsche, or any number of other luxury brands. Who’s really responsible, just look in the mirror. As long as we are willing to fork over the cash, the supplier is willing to raise the price. If you’re not happy paying more, then shop the used market and pay less.

@divertiti , if you were to go take a look at his past posts (time you'll never get back  and regret to your dying day) you'll see he's very consistent in his beliefs.

All the best,
Nonoise

Funny thing is I have been buying some European gear from Hungary and Poland at very reasonable cost.

I also keep in mind that people build products not countries. As long as the company is not owned by an oppressive government and they are building a quality product I will give it consideration (Chi-Fi in particular).

I picked up a wonderful Heed Elixir (Hungary) and popped it into my system for now to conserve on all my Russian Tubes in my main Integrated and it to is from Hungary

....when you watch/listen to him speak, it makes you wonder how on God’s great earth was this person elected.

Simple,  by listening to the idiot he was running against speak. 

As long as we are willing to fork over the cash, the supplier is willing to raise the price. 

Where does that cash come from?  

The FED has a way to distribute wealth.  Quantitative easing is a way to transfer wealth from the middle class to the ultra rich.  That's why they can afford such expensive stuffs.

 

@andy2 

Where does that cash come from?  

The FED has a way to distribute wealth.  Quantitative easing is a way to transfer wealth from the middle class to the ultra rich.  That's why they can afford such expensive stuffs.

 

Just what is "middle class" and what is "ultra rich" to you? The very definition of wealth accumulation is to understand the rules and then adapt your financial habits to maximize your opportunity to succeed. 

 

Some people growth their wealth at a pace that is faster than the effects of inflation, others do not. Hifi gear is a luxury consumable...one should only spend amounts which don't negatively impact their long term plans. Some of the discussion here is more akin to griping about the effects of swimming against the current of a river. I've never seen that as very productive.

@palasr + 1

@thecarpathian + 1

Thought this was an audio forum. So here is an audio answer. The small manufacturers still offer great deals search them out.

audioguy85,

Well said. It is alarming to say the least.

ozzy

I appreciate your comment, but honestly no. I would recommend with a economics class, follow with a couple finance classes… graduate level. Then a few years of following details of inflation, GDP, PMI, Fed moves… in this setting it ends up in a big waste of time. I (or I doubt anyone) can begin to enlighten lay folks in a few paragraph posts. Any assertion would be followed by pages of background and caveats… I would be spending hours researching an appropriate way to summarize.

I worked as the economic and strategic advisor to the CEO of a global high tech company. I have invested in the stock and bond market over the last thirty years. I spent years following stocks and economic indicators both professionally and personally. This is not a useful topic for an audio forum.

There is absolutely zero reason for the financial trail of evidence to be that complex.

It’s a purposely complexified fluffer box of smoke and mirrors. That much is obvious.

Regarding finance and monetary aspects of the Fed, it is as GWHB is reported to have said, "The truth? If the people knew the truth, we’d be hung off the nearest lamppost!"

the entire scope of the Jekyll island story (for lack of a better simple encompassing reference that can be researched and dug into) clearly illustrates that it is still a form of hard imperialism with oligarchs, as a running pack, that exist behind this wall of purposely obscured fluff around the dollar and world banks that serves as a cover for unrestricted oligarchy that is totally out of control.

The idea of democracy has just been a way of making the reins and tasps seem non existent, when in fact, it is deeply enforced for those who accidentally or purposely touch it’s edges and limits. With the current situation regarding covid and now the Ukraine, it is obvious to the trained mind, that it’s ass is sticking out and you can see the muscles and motions beneath the skin. It’s visible, for those who actually look. and it’s a very sick and sad feeling, to witness it, at best.

Or, completely sane and in total control, if you strip any aspect of human empathy and reason from the conversation and analysis.

If a person can’t explain the true fundamentals of what world finance and the US petro-dollar is to a 10 year old, a person is either lying or deeply misinformed or uninformed, or incapable of decoding the purposeful wall of fluff themselves.

Just my experience...... 🙂

 

FYI, it is a VERY useful topic for an audio form, for the reason that the discussion and thus the fundamental and important revelations for all, are not taking place anywhere else.

Akin to the idea of ’protest zones’ for the white house. Where one can protest, in a walled off box, in a small wooded area, some 10 miles out of town Unheard and unseen.

Where the system that is the problem, won’t have to deal with the public becoming informed by the existence of the protest and the conversation around the protest.

The forums (yes, in this case audio forums) are the only darned place left where the connected and concerned --- actually meet.

The rest is just controlled propaganda from different parties and players, like parasites fighting over what part of the host they get to control via their attempts to be hypnotically repetitive and Orwellian in their misinformation. Where in said major media.. individuals do their darnedest to hang on to their sense of comfort via the self hypnotic relfective that is their chosen set of foolishness to listen to. Like bad marriages/relationshsips that they don't possess the emotional will to separate themselves from.

aspiring toward a goal rather than whining about not having soming something?

this statement genius. We all must have goal dream vision execution unless we ultimate be unfill robot cog in large picture. No just bench press say to self I going bench press 250. No just go work to fix pipe but maybe think can I teach crew guy to fix pipe and I schedule and market and do book. Go get some somethin and lady flick to you when find rhythm and jacked.

Just an FYI, “audioman58 post has been reported as political by me. The only alarming thing is people actually agreeing with his stupid post. 

You should have just let it go. The problem, here.... is that.. in a fair and balanced estimate of what was said, probably 75-90% of the world, not just a near if not majority (recent polls) of the USA ...agree with most of his post.

The problem - is individualism.

The solution  - is individualism.

Both conditions are perfectly, impossibly, incontrovertibly- true.

Good luck to you all....

I agree, under that premise of thought.

 

but I’m saddened that the forums, which were supposed to be our great common conversation that was to serve as the undercurrent of all, that was to ’save us’ (where we could talk) is now so far gone that there are no conversations between people that the common person can meet up with... and discuss these incredibly important things.

Where the modern world with it’s billion channels, have conditioned us, individually, to ignore the world’s complexities for our own self stroking. Where via this self enacted method in the face of the individualized programming and petting of our egos and emotions .... we are collectively --- defeated.

I was worried about this potential and the shape of it to come - and it has arrived. I was worried about this in the late 80's -early 90's. One could see it coming even with the Internet's earliest beginnings.... and here it is..

The 800 lb elephant in the room is the political facts that are part of the answer to the original question. Govt regulations ,Printing $$$, inflation, etc etc.

The alarming thing IMO is that 25-30% of the people do NOT see the things that are going on right before their very eyes. Then they point to those who do and say, you are stupid, crazy ridiculous. I'm reminded of the cable, fuse, tweak threads, of late

High End Audio is never to much for me.

tsacremento+2 The rebirth of the gilded age! Being a realtor, we know record low interest rates and shortages of new home builds have driven up home prices.

@andy2 Where does that cash come from?

In my case, and I expect most others on this site, it came from a lifetime of hard word, living below my mothly income so I always had something left to invest for my future, making prudent investments over several decades and not expecting the government or anyone one else for that matter to be responsible for be past retirement age.  "The Fed" had nothing to do with it.  

@bigtwin +1

Noam Chomsky once quipped that if the Nuremberg laws and regs applied just post WWII, were moved forward and applied fairly to all, up to today's date, that each and every president since then, would be hung by the neck until dead, for the crimes of genocide on the world stage.

That, as actions may go, was inextricably tied to the policies of the Fed, an outfit which is entirely private and has never been audited.

the ride you got to take,and the ability to make investments and so on, was supported, nay enabled almost entirely- by the taking of the blood and life of others.

It's an unpopular reality,and I, being in Canada do not escape the crime at all... but if looked at openly and honestly it is indeed true.

We may have both been born into it, but that does not lend it integrity nor humanity.

That, as actions may go, was inextricably tied to the policies of the Fed, an outfit which is entirely private and has never been audited.

KPMG audited the FED in 2021. The President appoints and Senate approves the board of governors. The FED exists by act of Congress and can be abolished by act of Congress. Now go back to blabbing about fuses, nano goop, cable direction and other mindless drivel. 

"The Fed" had nothing to do with it.

The majority of wealth of the ultra rich is created through the rise in asset bubbles such as the stock market and the housing market. The FED has a lot to do with it.

 

@teo_audio

"Noam Chomsky once quipped that if the Nuremberg laws and regs applied just post WWII, were moved forward and applied fairly to all, up to today’s date, that each and every president since then, would be hung by the neck until dead, for the crimes of genocide on the world stage."

 

Chomsky was right, but even he, like Pilger and others, dare not tell it straight.

No president since Kennedy has been able to speak up against the cabal that control the world’s money supply.

Does Congress control the Federal Reserve, or is it the other way around?

In any case it’s never a good idea to allow your national debt to surpass your GDP, is it?

What other result can you expect other than lifelong economic slavery for the working people?

As they say, nothing in life is certain, apart from death and taxes.

 

All FIAT currency will eventually fail.  The current FED 8 trillion dollar balance sheet may be a start.

Taxing the hell out of the top !% is not going to solve the US’s financial problems. The net worth of the top 1% according to the Federal Reserve is 42.5 trillion dollars as of June of last year. If the US confiscated the entire net worth of the top 1%, it would pay off our current national debt of 30 trillion dollars and cover the federal government’s spending for another year or two.. The additional amount of money the government would get by taxing or confiscating those further down the net worth list (top 2%, top 10%) would shrink rapidly.

Whenever this take from the rich and give to the poor approach has been tried, it has resulted in economic disaster for everyone except those high up in the government. Governments are just not good at running economies.

Although It is a shame that so much wealth is concentrated among so few, the solution is not having the government take their money. It is for our society to become less materialistic, and that includes us. The people on this forum are probably among the top 1% in net worth if we look at the population of the entire world.

So if we want to spread the money around more equitably, the solution is for everyone to buy less and give more.

US national debt clock: https://www.usdebtclock.org/

The FED is a giant ponzi scheme.

Actually the US debt to GPD ratio is not as bad as among the world leading economy. 

https://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html 

@teo_audio the ride you got to take,and the ability to make investments and so on, was supported, nay enabled almost entirely- by the taking of the blood and life of others.

Get a life.  I am also Canadian and resent the implication that my own success is not entirely due to 40 years of hard work.  No one handed me anything my friend.  I suggest you need to find a forum that specializes in self flagellation.

Only if you let them. Any business will keep jacking up their price until people will stop buying. You can spend as much as you would like or you can do your research and get a great sounding system for a reasonable price. This hobby is like others where people will spend double the price for a 5% increase in sound. If that is what they figure is a good return on investment I will never be the one to question it. You can spend $2000 on a car or $200,000. They both get you from point a to b just in different ways in your head and looks!

sgreg1,

The $2000 car probably leaks oil...Just kidding.

It reminds me of a song about $1000 car by the Bottle Rockets.

The lyrics go something like this:

"If a thousand dollar was worth something then why would anyone buy a $10,000 car?"

ozzy

@bigtwin

 

+1. Good man

@ozzy  - The Bottle Rockets album - "The Brooklyn Side", that contains the song - "Thousand Dollar Car" is an awesome album. Wish it had been released on vinyl...

I'm so glad that I've been listening to my new integrated break in on it's first day than to read the drivel in this thread. You guys should get into some hobby, like audio.

All the best,
Nonoise

+1 nonoise

 controlled propaganda from different parties and players...

then this

Noam Chomsky once quipped that if the Nuremberg laws and regs applied.. each and every president since then, would be hung by the neck until dead, for the crimes of genocide

WTF, to diminish and dilute the evil that was the Holocaust in a "quip".  

So off topic that it beggars belief, but I'm glad the opportunity exists for the David Irving apologists to display their true colors for all to witness.

Like all markets, there are low and high-cost goods. Currently, all goods are going up in price. We are all along for the ride. Sadly the future does not look good on so many fronts not the least of which are the traitors( by design or thru stupidity)  currently attempting to overthrow our democracy through lies and manipulations.

Has the cost of HiFi gotten a bit too much?

A "bit too much" for what?  The USA and most other countries represented on this site practice free enterprise.  In the absence of monopolies and other nefarious/illegal practices, merchants set their pricing based on what the market will bear and based on their desired business model.  Within legal boundaries, there is no rule that the pricing of home hi-fi equipment must stay below the level of inflation.  Buyers decide what they like and vote with their wallets.  Businesses thrive or die based on the outcome. What would you change?

As someone else pointed out, with luxury items, not everyone can afford everything.  That fact really has not changed over time, but maybe the expectation has.  At least most people have the opportunity to change their circumstance, and while socio-economic factors and luck can influence the outcome, the combination of hard work, education, and living within your means usually go a long way toward improving one's condition.

The reality is, gas is the lifeblood of all things that have a cost.

So yes  Biden and his admin are the cause for gas price elevation,  with a little icing by the Russian embargo.

Printing money bodes for the future.  Essentially anything in your saving account now will be worthless in your old age.