Harbeth again…or other speakers for acoustic music?

A local dealer has the full lineup of Harbeth speakers and I like the sound of this brand, particularly the 30.2 model.  He gets great sound with tube amps such as the Synthesis A 40 (KT 66 tube).  The alternative to Harbeth he sells is Audio Note speakers.  I like this brand too.  The sound of the Audio Note line is fuller, but, because their speakers are meant to be placed close to the back wall, their is less of a sense of depth to the soundstage.  I think you would like either brands.

While you are trying to figure this out buy a pair of P3s to listen to in the meantime. Might save you some money in the long run.

If you liked Harbeths, check out Stirling LS3/6.

I own the Harbeth 30.2 and 90% of my listening is vocal and acoustic, rarely at high volume, which are two reasons I picked the 30.2's. When I listened to speakers, I also didn't like the 7's as much and wanted something with more bass then the 3's. There is plenty of detail at low volumes, they really pull all the emotions from vocals. I play guitar (badly) and guitars and piano sound natural. I would say they are rather too polite for hard rock and are not the best at huge symphonic music, like Mahler, but then they are not big floor standers either. I drive them with a 30 watt Class A with no problem. Hope this helps. 

I'd recommend trying Tannoys...once you hear a pair, I think you will be hooked like so many others. 

Look at Fritz speakers.

http://www.fritzspeakers.com/sound.asp

I know they're not a brand name like Harbeth, but check out all the mentions on this forum.  Also, you can talk directly with him to choose which model suits you best, and you can have an in-home audition.  BTW, they go remarkably low for their size, and work well with low-powered amps.

Harbeth are wonderful speakers, as are Spendors.  Both pair extremely well with Hegel which is a warm and clear integrated amp. If you want something with more harmonics and is a bit more musical, I like AVM as the kind of opposite end of the integrated spectrum. 

There is this whole explanation about small apartments in London and the need to sound good at low volumes explaining the design choices of brands like Harbeth and Spendor.  

You could certainly do something like a Tannoy or Fyne but you will want to make sure you are at the very warm end of the amp spectrum to make sure you don't drift bright.  I like AVM or a tube amp with these sorts of speakers.  

I am a dealer for Hegel and AVM, I have no affiliation with any of the speaker brands here.  

Devore Fidelity is another speaker brand that sounds like it meets what you're after. While designed and tested to work well with both SS & tube amps, SET are a good match. John Devore does some excellent youtube videos sharing great insights into his philosophy, priorities, etc. Compatibility with modest sized rooms is one of those priorities. 

They are one of the few speaker brands that I've got in my sights if ever moving to a small space incompatible w/ my large electrostatics. Cheers,

Spencer 

philsons,

In a perfect world , the Harbeth M40.1 , or M40.2 would be your next best logical choice to try. This is considering the fact that you really enjoyed the Harbeth 30.1 sound and are looking for something that has little more depth and covered the bass region better.

The M40s is just a larger version of the M30s. As you stated you have a smaller room and are not looking to place large speakers in your listening rooms , so I would imagine the Harbeth M40s would be too large. 

Since you really enjoyed the M30.1 ,  it might be worth trying to integrate a sub with them.

The Harbeth SHL5+ do have a more full range sound and would give you that lower bass extension with the Harbeth house sound. They do sound different from the M40s and M30s though. It would be something you would have to try to learn if you would enjoy them. Probably better to find a used pair in mint condition ,so you could sell without having a big loss ,if they were not to you liking.

I had the C7ES3 and while I liked them they were a touch too rich and occasionally lacking detail.  

I went through a few other brands and eventually came back to Harbeth with the SHL5+.  They have different sound compared to the C7.  More detail and an incredibly transparent midrange as well as better bass.  They are my long term speaker.   Like any, they thrive when you set them up properly and will respond well to quality amplification and sources.  

Good stands, proper placement and toe-in, etc. are critical.  

I used tube amps with excellent results- e.g. a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum and Stereo 100.  Currently running a Cary tube preamp and Pass Labs solid state amp.  

Harbeths are too colored for my taste.

@twoleftears - I've got both Harbeth Super HL-5's AND Fritz Carrerra BE! I had the Harbeths for years and was perfectly happy with them but wanted to hear what some other sounds would be like. I replaced the Harbeths in my system with the Fritz's, which were much more rockin' and in yer face, and while they are so much smaller than the Harbeths, they have a lot better bass. And now I've just gotten a pair of KLH Model 5's, which have a nice BIG sound! 

Thank you all for your wonderful comments and suggestions! I know the 30.1 a little bit and an option would be to try a used pair of 30.2 and see how they perform in my current apartment. If I still think they lack bass, maybe go for the sub-integration route. I’ll check out the brands/models you mentioned here and I didn’t know about earlier.

@deadhead1000

When I read your comment my mind travels back to the time I spent with 30.1.. The 30.2 with subs could be really interesting to hear and is something I’m very interested in. Also see how they do in my new space, with what I consider better acoustics than my previous one. Do you ever feel they’re lacking in bass department with the music you listen to?

@sbank

Devore is another interesting brand. Do you have any experience from smaller speakers than O/96?

@timo62 @avanti1960

M40.X is going to be to large in my room. The SHL5+ is another candidate I’ve been thinking on. How do you feel it handles jazz and acoustic ensembles? Have you compared it to 30.1/2.

Integrating 30.1/2 with subs is very tempting alternative, since I liked 30.1 in so many ways. Have you had any chance to listen to 30.1/2 with subs?

@philsons I have heard the Nines ( narrow & deep shape vs. O series) which are great in a med. sized room and the Gibbons which smaller still and really disappear. They also have a new model that I saw featured in a video which is a baby version of O series. 
Cheers,

Spencer

@sbank Thanks. Actually I also watched a clip the other day about the baby O and micro speakers. Very interesting to read more reviews about them later on. Maybe he mentioned it on the clip, but do you know when they’ll be released?

Cheers

philsons,

The SLH5+ are great with Jazz and Acoustical ensembles. They do have a different sound compared to the M30.1. The SLH5+ will give you a full range sound with that added lower end extension that you seek.

 I personally found the SLH5+ to be a little too lively, or extended up top for my liking. They sounded great to me at first , but after a while it sounds a little bright to my ears compared to the M30.1s. Results may vary. A lot of owners love them and feel they sound sweet.

I had the M30.1s for about a year and then I upgraded to the M40.2s. Much like yourself, I really enjoyed the M30.1s , but missed that full range sound.

I did not try to add a sub with the M30.1s though. It can be done , but it takes time and patience to dial them in to your liking. I just went strait to the M40 instead.

There are currently a couple of Harbeth Facebook groups that you could inquire about to any of the M30 owners with their experience using subs with them.

I’ve owned a pair of m 30.1’s for about 4 years. I really enjoy them and I too like jazz, vocals, acoustic guitar, piano etc. Acoustic music with space and realism mixed with artists like Monk, Bill Evans, Billie, Etta, Esperanza, Glenn Gould, Yo Yo Ma, Tommy Emmanuel, etc.). Live when possible. I’ve considered "upgrading" but I wouldn’t want to give up anything about the m30.1’s. I listen at low levels as well.

I made the decision add an SVS Micro 3000 subwoofer to my setup last week and am now experimenting with placement, volume, etc. I simply want to augment the m 30.1’s to fill out the sense of space in my room which btw is similar in size to yours philsons. I read a stereophile review of the SVS Micro 3000 which convinced me to give it a try. From what little I’ve played I think it will work nicely in my system.

Harbeths are too colored for my taste.

I agree. I demoed the M30.2’s a few times. Not for me.

There’s a Youtube video where GR Research takes apart the small Harbeths. I couldn’t believe the crossover for a 2 way. It’s is made up of about 30 cheap parts. 

I owned 40.1's for 8 years and loved them, but agree your room is likely too small to accommodate Harbeth 40 series.  I had the non + version of SHL5's for about a year... they were just okay, but like @timo62 , I found their top end to be too much for my liking.  The 30 series with a REL subwoofer or two may be a good option, but will take patience on your end to get them to integrate properly... I've struggled to get subs to integrate well in the past, so I stick with full range speakers.  You should consider Audio Note and Spendor SP1/2's.   

Tanmoy or Audio Note speakers with a good 300b SET will be very very good for your listening

@pdreher Thanks for your input. That’s the one thing I’m little afraid of with the SHL5+, that the top end can be little to much and feels bright after a while. But I know many people seems to love that speaker very much.

I just read the Stereophile article about SVS Micro 3000 that @steveashe mentioned. It sounds that it’s performing very very well AND he also reviewed it along with Harbeth 30.2! Here’s the article.

@pani Thanks, I’ll look more into AN speakers. I’m guessing AN amp would be ideal choice together?

@philsons Sorry, no idea when the new Devore models come out.

Saying Harbeths are too colored is like saying German Shepherds are too dog-like.  Extraordinary truth-to-timbre, with the possible exception of Audio Note.

@philsons 

I have compared the 30.2 to the SHL5+.  but not with a subwoofer.  I am sure they would sound excellent.

Overall I prefer the transparency of the SHL5+ vs. the 30.2.  The 30.2 can sound soft and rounded.  Not as rich as the C7ES3 but again I prefer the transparency in the SHL5+

Not to say it is overly bright, the SHL5+ still maintains that Harbeth warmth and forgiveness.  

@jdal 

please remember that GR research video has an agenda.  the crossover parts are low cost but are well regarded capacitors and resistors that have tight tolerances.  they are low cost because they are sold in high volume.  

as far as the parts content understand that to achieve the sound the designers are after a crossover may need many parts to achieve the best sound.  the main goals are absolute coherence between the drivers, a perfect phase response, an easy to drive impedance curve, and keeping drivers well out of their breakup modes.

to do this to perfection requires parts- e.g. higher order slopes require more parts per low pass/ and high pass filter than simple shallow slope design.  you may also need circuits for impedance flattening (zoebel), notch filtering for supressing peaks and distortion as well as baffle step compensation to flatten the response from higher reflected frequencies.  

The secret sauce of any speaker are the voicing and crossovers, often a simple one does not yield the best results.

you should see the crossovers for the well regarded Joseph Audio Pulsars, which are a patented "infinite slope" design.  

I auditioned the SHL5+ extensively at a well-known Seattle dealer, in what appeared to be a solid brick-walled room with a suite of high-end Naim electronics.  I was surprised by how bright they sounded to me, and I--ill-advisedly--nearly wrote off the brand.  Then at Deja Vu in DC I heard the 40.2s, and everything changed.  I don't know how many "house sounds" Harbeth has, but it's more than one.

The SHL5+ are sensitive to toe in and break in hours.  

They are counter intuitive in that more toe in reduces brightness. Also they should have grilles on to smooth the upper midrange.  

Lastly mine took many many hours to reach their final forgiving less bright initial sound.  

A couple of guys asked how its going with my SVS Micro 3000sub and Harbeth m30.1 setup/integration.

First just a little context so you know my particular situation. I retired about 6 years ago and have moved 4 times since then. Always a 1 or 2 br. apt., from NY to Florida, then back to NY 2 years ago to a rental apartment in Long Beach, NY. I bought a 1 bedroom apartment on the Long Beach boardwalk last year at about this time. I mention this as monitor speakers like the Harbeth’s (in my case the 30.1’s) are relatively portable and easy to pack. So size factored into my personal equation.

Now that I’ve put down roots, I’m able to flesh out my system. To me, that meant I’d either buy a larger Harbeth like the SHL5+ or simply add a fast, small sub to my present system. I decided to just augment the 30.1’s with a sub and see how that goes over the winter. I’ve been an audiophile for the past 30 years or so and have heard hundreds of systems so I have a pretty good understanding of what to expect.

So far so good. I had to work with Pass Labs to understand how to connect this particular sub to my Pass INT-25 speaker outputs (ain’t no line out). So I thank Kent English from Pass for helping me to come up with a solution over the past few weeks.

The SVS Micro 3000 is "tiny". About 22.5 lbs. That makes it easy to move around the room. The remote android app (I’m sure its the same for apple) is easy to use and works fast and well. That makes it easy to tweak from my couch. I hear what i wanted to hear and that makes me happy. Sure it might take some time to integrate "seamlessly" but it’s doing what I expected right now. I don’t understand all the controls on the app but I’ll learn, no biggie. I’m concentrating on the Low Pass Filter on the SVS app now and have set that close to 50hz which is where the Harbeth really loses its bottom end. I’m looking for "space" not "bass".

Personally I think the SVS / Harbeth combo is the cats meow. Sort of a no brainer for under $1k all in. I hope this information helps someone else. Sure it’s going to take a while for me to futz around to get perfect sound but that’s what winter is about. Don’t be daunted!!

I went from falcon ls3/leben to harbeth 30.1 with croft/tron and now tannoy /luxman each time  it got better... 

@philsons when you say speakers too big for room do you mean space or that they will be loud? I play my tannoys at lower dB than I did my harbeths... They convey so much more info from huge 15inch tulip driver 

@richdirector Thanks for the input! I think it will be to tight with to big speakers as it must work together in my main living room, I don’t have access to a pure listening room unfortunately, but that’s a wish for the future.

There are quite a number of models from Sonus Faber which would serve you well also - choice dependent on your budget. Apart from the very high end models, they tend to be pretty compact and a good fit for your size of room.

@avanti1960 Thanks for commenting. The past days I’ve been all fired up about getting some good hifi again. Since it’s a lot of money I plan on taking a trip to the capitol city Stockholm sometime during next year and audition speakers, first of all Harbeth range but if possible other speakers that are mentioned here. I can’t deny that 30.1 made a really strong impact on me although I missed some lower frequencies. The midrange, vocals and instruments was more lifelike than I’ve ever heard a hifi-setup sound before. I can’t even imagine how the 40.X must sound with the right conditions!

@steveashe Thank you for taking the time to write about your story and impressions, very helpful.

@yoyoyaya Good tip, will check them out, thanks.

I have not tried other amps than my Croft 25/7 I had back then, equipped with NOS Tesla tubes. So it’s gonna be interesting to try different ones. What amps can you recommend working real good? I played all digital and the same will be this time.

I currently have three speaker models in my house. Harbeth SHL5+, Harbeth M30.1, and Fritz Carrera BE. The SHL5+ is in the main system, and I have been rotating the 30.1 and Carrera BE in my home office. Before getting the Carrera BEs, I thought nothing could touch my all-time favorite bookshelf speakers -- Harbeth M30.1s. I was wrong!

The Fritz Carrera BEs have proven to be better than 30.1 in my system at least. It is more balanced across the frequency range with better and extended upper frequency, more resolving, and far superior bass. It is also a better all rounder, i.e. does well with a wide range of genres. I have gone back and forth between the two speakers for the last two months, and each time I end up preferring the Carrera’s. And mind you, this is coming from a long time Harbeth loyalist :)

Having said that, it took at least 100 hours for the Carreras to break in. Prior to that, I preferred Harbeth’s midrange and vocals, but after 100 hours or so I can say that it is at least equal to 30.1 when it comes to midrange. Harbeth still has an edge when it comes to the reproduction of human voice. Also, the bass on Carreras is tighter and punchier, whereas the Harbeth’s bass is bigger but slightly less focused. Since I have spent a lot of money on audio equipment recently, I can’t really justify keeping both the 30.1 or Carrera BEs. The Harbeths have been listed for sale on this site. This should tell you something :)

I did a comparison a few weeks ago that you might find interesting ...

Disclaimer: not my audio room.

I used to sell Croft amplifiers in the 1980's. They were great value at the time when tube amps, especially affordable ones, were thin on the ground. And they sounded great for the money. I don't work in the industry any more - or at least not on a paid basis, but I do get to listen to lots of stuff. Copland, Prima Luna and Jadis are some tube brands you might consider. However, if you listen to all digital, you might be better served by a class A biased transistor amp. The Pass Int-25 and the Sugden A21SE are worth listening to in that regard.

@arafiq Nice read of your review of Fritz Carrera, if you’re selling the 30.1 that really tells something about the Fritz speakers. I’m wondering if you can write down the impressions by comparing your SHL5+ with 30.1? Since I owned the latter I get some reference.

@twoleftears Oh man, now we’re talking! 😃😃

@yoyoyaya Allright thanks, I’ve read very good things with the brands you mention. Actually was about to buy a second hand sugden A21SE before I ordered the Croft.

The Charney Audio Maestro or Maestro Extreme will work perfectly in your room. Very small footprint that don’t need a stand or have to come far into the room for the best sound. I have listened to the Maestro with both the Lii 8 and Voxativ 1.6 drivers in my 11x15.5x8 room and was very impressed with the sound. They maintain the balance and 3D realism that Charney is known for. Bass is sufficient and real sounding not subwoofer but tight and right with all the notes there no room nodes. Charney will build them in unfinished baltic birch or finished the at your want them to be. 
 

http://charneyaudio.com/the-maestro.html

As a long time owner of SHL5 (7 years) and currently SHL5+ for about 5 years now, the SHL5+ is the brightest sounding speaker in the Harbeth line to me. I’ve listened to the P3ESR, C7ES3, M30, M30.1, M30.2, M40 and M40.1. I actually find the rest of the Harbeth speakers to sound too warm for my preference, particularly the M30 series. Hence the SHL5+ gets my vote.

I actually find the SHL5+ to sound warm, dull and lacklustre when matched with several amps. I swapped several amps on the SHL5+ in an attempt to make it sound brighter at the top and more lively and dynamic.

While waiting for a response from Arafiq on the comparison between the M30.1 and SHL5+, here’s my take. M30.1 sounds more intimate, warmer and fuller in the midrange with a rounder and slightly rolled off treble. To me the 30.1 has a warmer sound but it sounds more forward than the SHL5+. The sound leaps out more from a silent background with the 30.1. The SHL5+ sounds more even and balanced.

30.1 sounds great with vocals and intimate music, not so much with rock and larger scale music. The sound is too controlled and lacks airiness in the treble. SHL5+ is more versatile and a better all rounder. Bass on the SHL5+ is much better than 30.1 as expected. There’s heft and wallop, and the bass sounds more defined too. Moving from SHL5+ to 30.1 you will feel a chunk of bass missing.

I guess this will apply too when switching from SHL5 to 40.1 or 40.2.

In the end, it’s a matter of preference as usual. The differences are all relative. The SHL5+ can still fit in a 12’ x 15’ room.

If they are still available you should look at Dynaudio Heritage Special.   Its arealky nice speaker thst would sound great in your space.

HARBETH 30.2XD’s are the sweet spot in their stable 

Thanks for your input, will read more about the ones I didn’t know of before.

@rodge827 

@bobheinatz 

@akg_ca 

@ryder Nice sum up of your impressions. Have you had any chance to hear 30.1 or .2 with sub?

I very much liked the Boenicke W5 when I heard it at a show. I stayed a while in the room and got to choose a song I knew well. For your room they may be perfect. Most reviews also mentions that they sound a lot like real musical instruments. 

Have you had any chance to hear 30.1 or .2 with sub?

No I haven’t.

The M30.2 or 30.2 XD may be worth considering as I find the newer iteration to sound better than the older versions. Personally I find the original M30 to be underwhelming. It’s the warmest Harbeth speaker with significantly reduced air and rolled off treble. The clarity is poor with the M30. I find the M30.1 to sound much better with improved clarity and detail. I much prefer the 30.1 over M30.

The 30.2 sounds even better, more open and brighter with an extended treble (although I note that few prefer the warmer presentation of the 30.1). If the 30.2 XD sounds even more open at the top with improved clarity and detail, it may well be a winner. Bass isn’t everything as the size of the M30 would be appropriate for small to medium sized rooms (where larger speakers fail to fit).

My system consists of the Harbeth P3 Anniversary Editions, Naim Uniti Atom, and SVS SB-3000 sub. It sounds great to me. Often I'm amazed at how good it sounds. I listen to a wide variety of music at low to moderate volume and am totally satisfied. No desire to upgrade. The SVS integrates beautifully. I'm sure it would do the same with the 30.1/30.2 as well.

@bilitz Thank you for commenting. Interesting to hear. Did you find it difficult to integrate the sub? And where do you place it, near speakers or some distance away?

It was not difficult to integrate. I have it off to one side of the speakers near a corner of the room. 

@philsons

for what its worth , I listen to pretty much 100% classical and a little Jazz. Was a long term ( 10+ years) M30 and M40.1 owner both great... as all Harbeths .

my room is around 16’x 14’ but after leaving Harbeths the speaker which I’ve had now for around 6 years that overall have given me the most satisfaction and pleasure in just listening to the music! are the very well regarded long in production but still rather esoteric Finnish made ’Gradient Revolutions ’( in my case the ’active’ versions).

As they’ve only just been replaced by a rather radical redesign of the enclosures

the originals ( which looks wise at least I prefer) can now be found used for really good prices.( they’ve always been well priced even at retail as they have no ’fancy veneers etc to worry about .

Gradient themselves now offer fully serviced ’used’ examples from their website and can ship direct. ...you can thank me later : )

Totem speakers out of Montreal do well  on Classical .