Grounding cable gauge size

After looking over the Entreq site recently there now stating the grounding box should match the component it’s grounding ie. weight the bigger the component the bigger the grounding box needed along with another thread I read where the box has one cable inside the box or compartment some of the larger Entreq box have multiple compartments thus multiple cables. 

Entreq now list the mixture , tungsten , magnesium, silver etc. so I did the same. I’m sure my mixture is different but it still made a huge difference in the music. 
 

It’s like any tweek really “ you need to read , experiment and try different combinations to reach the desired effect your looking for.

They do work .

Have a Signal Ground Solution SG1 grounding box from Andrew in Scotland.

Have two of his copper grounding cables, reasonably priced.

Waiting on a Silent Point grounding box I've ordered.

Could someone who has a grounding box take a voltage measurement between one of the ground terminals on their grounding box and the “D” shaped hole in their wall outlet?  I’m curious if a voltage differential exists.  I imagine it will be in the microVolt range if at all.  The D shaped hole in the wall plug should go to the earth ground outside of your home so virtually no risk plus a voltmeter has a high resistance across the leads.  Put the red lead in the D hole and the black lead on the grounding box terminal.  I would expect a positive voltage reading if anything.  

I also added a outlet on the grounding box that grounds dac and server , using a 14 g pure silver wire attached to furutech ncf plugs into the house outlet like Entreq does and it certainly adds a more 3D space.

Interesting. I have always separated the ac grounding from the signal grounding.

ozzy

Agree Ozzy, but with your meter you may be surprised that the  signal grounding is part of the chassis which may also be the AC grounding. Pull your power cable and check the exterior or the RCA connectors to the ground plug and you may find they are the same.

bugremachine,

You are probably right about the rca ground being the same as the chassis ground. But my personal experience has not been good when I mixed the chassis ground and the signal ground. In several cases I got hum.

My solution has been and is now to keep them separate. Perhaps some time, I will check it with an ohm meter.

Question: Are you also referring to the ground on the AC outlet being the same as the signal ground?

ozzy

Thank you Ozzy for trying this stuff and reporting your results, I think it was you that put me onto the Puritan power filiters which continue to wow me.

Just read an Analog Corner article from Nov 2021 on electrical wiring that I thought might interest:

Thank you. It is refreshing to be able to post on audiogon without the various crazies chiming in.

ozzy

Yes, the ground of your AC IEC can be the chassis, which can also be the signal ground of an RCA connector. So saying we keep them separate, which I also try to do with 2 ground rods, is kidding ourselves. So something to be aware of as Ralph pointed out, component manufacturers have vastly different schemes. So beware.

I use the Puritan out through the Groundmaster to a rod in mother earth. I ran a separate ground rod for the signal grounds, but in my case they are the same as some of the power grounds. So creating a loop is a risk. I cannot say I have done that but with 2 rods outside I find it hard to believe they will travel back, especially with Groundmaster in place.

richmon,

Just read the Stereophile article you linked, some very interested stuff. Thank you!

ozzy

bugrIedmachine.

I wonder if I ran a ground wire from the AC outlet ground to my Entreq with the signal grounds, would be a good thing?

ozzy

I would think that would bypass the Entreq altogether and go straight to ground. I think as an experiment you might find direct to the ground in the outlet would be better than the Entreq.

I made an adapter from a spare male plug and attached a banana jack to the back side with only a wire from it to the ground pin of the Furutech male wall plug so I only connected the banana to ground via the plug. Then I could stack up plugs to experiment with. Now I use my new black ground box instead going to earth and a copper rod instead.

I believe Entreq's and other boxes are full of stuff simulating earth because most folks don't have the acumen to mess with wires and ground rods and wall outlets.

Ok thought I should share that I made 2 6x6 grounding boxes for my modest system. $80-$100 investment. Lined boxes with copper plates, 45% rock salt, 45% horticulture charcoal , 10% crushed tourmaline. One is hooked up to my power conditioner chassis nut ground and phono preamp chassis ground plugged into wall outlet ground. Second one just connected to my Goldenear Triton Towers with sub amps built in. Wow what a dramatic improvement connecting a ground box to the speaker neg banana plugs. Tried connecting one to my tube amp with no improvement. Amazing hearing the clarity, percussion, organ, and rhythm section in he background stand out. Many where hidden in the background prior. These grounding tweaks really make a noticeable improvement. I am shocked!

Are you connecting to the negative terminal of the speakers only with a standalone box for "passive' absorption? If powered speakers, I would guess you cannot connect the neg terminal to a ground of a duplex?

I connected basic 16ga copper strand wire to the neg terminal on each speaker only to the standalone box. Speakers have class D sub amps built in not fully powered speakers. Plan to try NPS1260, wire and connector upgrades to see if it improves.

I also have made some DIY speaker ground boxes and was also amazed at how well they work. 

Be curious to hear how the NPS 1260 works, I have some but have not tried it on those connectors.

ozzy

I cannot anticipate any auditory benefit on a ground wire.😏

Ozzy, have you tried your grounding direct ot the duplex ground and w/o the Entreq?

A ground cable is used for safety. It does not affect the sound unless your system is miswired.

It should be rated at the equivalent or greater current level which would blow the main fuse of your specific device. To be sure, let us say at twice the level. For most purposes and for devices connected to a 15 amp mains, it is not necessary to have a ground cable thicker than about 10 AWG, unless you somehow intend to bypass your fuse (I know there are some fuse lovers on this thread) and run your device as a blast furnace.

Paying any thing over a few dollars for it is just plain .........

@bugredmachine i agree with your comment above on auditory improvement on a ground…UNTIL I plugged my speakers into the ground box. Gobsmacking sound improvement. Better than spending thousands of $’s on component upgrades…My ears tell me the truth!

@cakyol i guess these grounding connections to a ground box solved my speaker’s grounding issues.  Loving it!   Amp and DAC don’t seem to benefit from the box's.  Crazy stuff…

.  

You probably had a ground loop which you eliminated by plugging it into a star connnection. 

I was speaking to the HF NS 1260 compound. Yes, reducing noise is auditory but the compound should not be needed for this activity.

bugredmachine,

Ok, thanks for the response on the NPS 1260. I may try it anyway...

Question: Grounding from the outlet. If not to the Entreq or my DIY versions, then grounded to what? The chassis?

ozzy

cakyol,

I have found that sometimes logic doesn’t always translate to audio reality. Especially when it comes to all things in this hobby.

ozzy

observations do not concur with established theory

approach 1. conclusion: observations are flawed

outcome: status quo preserved

approach 2. conclusion: further investigation is warranted

new or modified theory proposed that aligns with observations

theory tested >

null hypothesis formulated, rejected or not,

theory rejected, theory accepted for further testing, theory modified or new theory proposed,

theory tested > …etc etc.. outcome: Scientific progress is made, even if we reject 10 hypotheses

my own experiments have lead me to conclude that there are things going on within electrical fields that theory clearly states shouldn‘t, and based on the anecdotal reports of many audiophiles I am not alone. I view this as an opportunity for scientific advancement rather than something to be dismissed in a condescending manner.

There are just too many people independently reporting similar findings for them to be dismissed out of hand.

Ozzy, it sounded like you were thinking about running a wire from the Entreq to the duplex ground. That would seem to defeat the Entreq as the path of least resistance would be the component to the duplex ground. So why not just try the duplex ground or ground rod w/o the Entreq to see if they are equal in reducing noise? I believe these purchased boxes are no more than representatives of our earth(dirt, etc.) and the cheapest way to replicate them is to go straight to ground. The bigger the boxes, the better the reduction, i.e. the more "dirt" they represent.🤷‍♂️

I'll try grounding my negative speaker terminal to earth ground rod this weekend after I change out the purple fuses first in case there is a short I am not anticipating. I have tried grounding the mounting bolts of the drivers to the earth rod with zero effect.

I'll try grounding my negative speaker terminal to earth ground rod 

bury a large copper plate or large piece of scrap with about 3‘ cover and water during dry weather  -  have used this for RF for decades. Even a car radiator works well.

I have found that sometimes logic doesn’t always translate to audio reality. Especially when it comes to all things in this hobby.

Ozzy, completely agree...being new to this hobby for a little over a year now I am continually amazed how all sorts of tweaks make a big difference.   You need to have an open mind that non-logical changes may have a positive impact on your system.  The only way to know is give it a try with an open mind.  Too many seem to have bias before getting started.  I always thought the best way to improve sound is upgrade components...not anymore.  Nps 1260, fuses, shuman generators, ground boxes, power conditioners, acoustic treatment, helmholz resonators, cables, optical FMC’s, and I’m only a little over a year in.  Mind bending to me.

A copper grounding rod can prove rather effective. 

tksteingraber,

Always keep an open mind and experiment. You will not only improve your listening pleasure but also have fun on the journey.

ozzy

Please help me to understand, I'm curious to try this speaker grounding tweak since my speaker cables go directly into a floor hole and are suspended in the rafters of my basement.

So I can run a wire from the black '--' speaker terminal to either the copper water pipes below (the panel box ground runs directly to an outside copper ground rod) or since it would be easy to drive a grounding rod underneath the speakers this is prefered? I can also easily do this at the amp '-' and compare the two spots and the two grounding strategies..

Thanks much.

I have my speaker's negative terminal grounded into one of my DIY grounding boxes. If anyone is interested, I can share the ingredients. And perhaps some pictures on my systems page. 

Others with more experience in this type of grounding can answer.

ozzy

I would not connect your negative terminal to anything electrical ground (which would include a copper pipe in many homes). You will have a ground loop and it will be unpleasant for your gear. 

Proceed with caution.

Ozzy, is anything else connected to the box, or just the one speaker negative to one box that is its own terminus?

bugredmachine,

Well, I have each speaker negative terminal connected via a silver wire to (2) small separate different DIY boxes. The amps and subs are also connected via a silver solid wire to one large DIY box with a separate terminal on each end. The Dac, etc. are connected to the Entreq Silver Tellus via a couple of their Atlantis grounding cables.

These are all signal ground connections. I used to be able to hear a faint low-level sound through the speakers from the tube amps at about 4’ away. Today, I have to practically put my ear inside the speaker to even hear try to hear anything.

Of course, that is without music playing. LOL!

And the sound quality is amazing these days very deep sound stage. I am impressed.

ozzy

Here is what is inside my DIY boxes.

DIY Grounding Box Ingredients.

Magnetic mat placed at the bottom of box.

Crystals- Various types of Tourmalines, Quartz, Topaz

Minerals- Graphite, Graphene, Manganese Dioxide, Iron oxide, Zinc Sulphate, Carbon.

Wire- 10-gauge 9999 silver wire, chopped up 9999 silver ribbon pieces, 10-gauge 999 copper. Aluminum pieces.

Copper 101 sheets, copper chop, silver pieces.

Graphene Oxide.

Shungite 200 grams total. 100 main box 50 each speaker boxes. Plus, I added another pound of raw Shungite. ½lb to main box ¼lb to each speaker box.

Rochelle salt 2 pounds. 1 pound main, ½ pound speaker boxes.

Oil Dry compound placed outside of copper sheets for “earth”.

And of course, a few large wooden cigar boxes.

Note: I just added pictures of these DIY boxes at the end of my systems page,

ozzy

Very impressive box ingredient list and system Wow!  I took a much simpler tact (on my modest system) after doing limited research with positive results as well. I made 2- 6x6 boxes from scrape melamine wood. Lined inside with copper plates and conductive copper tape. Filled with 45% rock salt, 45% horticulture charcoal, 10% fines and 1” pieces of tourmaline.  Used basic OFC copper 16 ga speaker wire +/- twisted together with spades and banana plugs. One box has both speaker - connected.  Second box is plugged into wall outlet ground only and connected to the chassis grounds on my power conditioner and TT preamp.  Substantial SQ improvement. I have pics on my system list.

What steps have you taken to avoid redundancy, and ensure that all the listed ingredients are active, and indeed serve a useful purpose in the functioning of the grounding box?

I’ve followed the Entreq website of listed ingredients along with installing of an electrical outlet on my grounding box that serves my dac and server. The only difference is that I’ve plugged the grounding box into my conditioner vs the wall outlet Entreq states , for me in my system it yields better results. 
 

I also used more wires and material in my box previously , then I read the updated Entreq site and others where they use a single 2 meter long silver wire with multiple layers of ingredients and multiple compartments and implemented the same.

I’d say for me the biggest improvements in SQ was following Entreq in the size and weight of the grounding box matches the size od component it’s grounding.

My amp box is bigger and weights more then my Accuphase A 65 amp and that made a huge difference vs the smaller box I used previously. The amp weights over 90 lbs and the new grounding box had to be filled at the desired location because I wasn’t going to pick it up and move it at 60 yrs old.

This looks like a galvanic cell as opposed to a battery. So something as simple as a copper wire with aluminum sheet that makes the current pass through a conductive medium like graphene or the like should draw "noise" out of the wire to the larger surface of aluminum or equivalent. Still researching.

sounds like a worthwhile avenue of research; if you can shed more light on the functionality of earth boxes and simplify their construction kudos on you..

the moment progress in commercial earth box construction appears to have stagnated at the “I can make my recipe sound more esoteric than yours“ stage, with no real justification given as to why certain ingredients are being added.

This has lead to the brute force approach, where bigger is better, instead of a smarter is better mindset focused on uncovering the actual physics at play

If there was ever a snake oil product, that is it. You are not going to hear a difference in ground cables. It is either grounded or it is not. The reason the ground cable provided with some turntables is super thin gauge is because it prevents a solid or rigid connection, as that would be a path for vibration to travel on. The thin gauge is sort of absorbing vibration like a spring rather than transferring it. You can just use any thin 22 or 24 gauge wire from say an auto parts store or hardware store. If you fancy expensive silver, then use that...it ain't going to make one bit of difference in the sound. No ground? Well then you have an issue(s), such as hum, buzz, erroneous noise etc...

then why do so many otherwise sane people report that they do? This type of uninformed condescension wears very thin from those who have zero hands on experience and simply pontificate from their armchairs

It‘s the why it works I find fascinating..

Hello Ozzy

In my limited experience adding Entreq cables and grounding box (Olympus Tellus) was the crossing of a major threshold, giving a bigger benefit than any other change or addition i have made.

I live somewhere very remote, there are no other buildings in my post (zip) code, and I'm the only property on my outside mains transformer. Internally i have separate spurs powering my source components with a second dedicated to power amps and my subwoofers on the general house circuit. My home has star grounding via rods driven down to reach the water table. And yet, despite all of that,  the transformation when i added the first grounding box was astounding.

All of the things Ozzy said, an opening up of the sound field, more detail, a purer emotional connection to the music, increased dynamics and significant improvements in all the all of the things my system does well, notably bass extension and slam. It's my system on a good day, everyday.

Btw this is what Entreq say regarding mains grounding:

Something to establish is that Entreq’s use of the term Ground does not directly relate to or mean ‘Primary Earth’ i.e. what you would understand as your ‘Protective Earth’ for your mains electricity. Entreq Ground Boxes are not designed to substitute or replace the protective ground found in your home. The function of the Entreq Ground Box is to present itself as an attractive destination for high frequency noise, stray voltages and the various issues induced by magnetic field effects. This pollution is littered across the system and is always present. Different systems attract, generate and produce different levels and types of noise

I would also add that I'm playing with my new Tripoint Elite box, experimenting with differing grounding philosophies; ime Entreq works best with signal grounding, Tripoint with chassis grounding. I would heartily concur that mixing analogue and digital components on the same grounding plane is a no- no, and even mixing chassis and signal grounds from the same component on a single ground plane is undesireable. This would be why both Entreq and Tripoint are going down the route of multiple, disconnected ground planes within each box; the Tripoint offers five grounding planes, as does the new Entreq box, the Olympus Hero

https://www.futureshop.co.uk/entreq-olympus-hero-multi-cell-ground-box?gclid=CjwKCAiAjoeRBhAJEiwAYY3nDM6uk3dfkrAE93ARIh5BfMZDwQ-l6k2SvC72x6a-NxoSgqAjPugOxhoCC8gQAvD_BwE

Thank you gavman for that very helpful information.

I can say that my DIY boxes do seem to be as good as the Entreq Silver Tellus (if perhaps better). I have done a lot of research, and a lot of trial and error in the ingredients that I chose for my DIY versions. Combined they all make a big difference in the sound depth and all the other attributes you have referenced. With the Entreq and my 3 DIY versions I have been able to separate digital, analog and speakers.

All that being said I would like to try a Tripoint unit someday, but they are a little costly,

ozzy

then why do so many otherwise sane people report that they do? This type of uninformed condescension wears very thin from those who have zero hands on experience and simply pontificate from their armchairs

I'm with you 100% on this

All that being said I would like to try a Tripoint unit someday, but they are a little costly,

ozzy

Innit😁

Took me a year to save up for the Tripoint...

Btw your focus on grounding wires is shared by the high end forums WBF and AudioExotics in the far east. Tripoint make some upgraded ground wires, as does Dalby Audio Design,  even by WBF and AE standards they are eye- wateringly expensive; think 10 x the cost of the Entreq Ertha Atlantis. But users report that the ground wire is perhaps even more significant than the grounding box.