Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@lalitk 

I've read your comments and, like you, I was firmly in the camp where you currently reside. If someone does NOT want to operate with the Roon user interface, the Grimm is not for them. I respectfully submit though that the blanket statements about upsampling and its demerits vs merits fails to recognize that different designers do things differently. While a file might be upsampled in two different implementations, how something is upsampled is where the rubber meets the road. In short, if someone hasn't heard it for themselves they just don't know what they are talking about. Full stop.

I will post later when I have the time about an experiment I conducted where I became convinced that I was wrong about the universal NOS/native "doctrine". You have to trust your ears and while I want everyone to choose the path that best suits them, the right path isn't achieved by reading and adopting absolute positions. 

@nyev 

Unless you’re married to ROON, consider auditioning Aurender N20 and call it a day! I can hardly wait to get N30SA later this year and complete my quest on what I consider my ultimate digital front end under $100K. 

No upsampling for me please. 

@arafiq,

Once you hear a native file on a well executed NOS DAC, you won’t care for upsampled file. You can’t magically add meaningful ‘information’ that’s not there! Trickery or not, I will leave it your own imagination :-) 
 

@charles1dad 

You can certainly turn off upsampling in MU1. But Downsampling of DSD64, DSD128, DSD256 and DXD files and streams to 4FS or 2FS 😳. For many, it’s not a big deal cause there is plenty of content available to stream upto 4FS resolution. IME, once you hear a native DXD or DSD file, you gain a whole new perspective on what’s possible. And having a DAC that allows you to appreciate these incremental differences is a bonus :-) 

I’ve briefly considered upgrading to a standalone DAC but quickly dismissed it.  I know there are better performing DAC’s out there for higher cost.  But my Diablo 300 amp and DAC module have become like an old pair of jeans that just fits perfectly, despite the couple of sonic quibbles that are inconsequential to me. It’s the only component in my system other than my Innuos PhoenixNET network isolation switch that I can’t see myself wanting to replace.  My dealer called offering a trade in program, and I said that I’m good.  He grumbled that he likes McIntosh customers better as they tend to want to upgrade every year but Gryphon owners are set for life! His words not mine, and he immediately said he shouldn’t have said that right after he said it.  I know the Gryphon Essence would easily beat my Diablo but despite the value it’s still a massive upgrade cost, and I just don’t want all that added cabling.  I’m struggling with “clean” routing of all my cables as and I can easily hear issues when I move my AC cords around the wrong way or coil them too much.  As I said it’s one of the triggers into looking into the MU1, so I don’t need a separate reclocker box with cables.  And, I’m hoping to acquire another component that is “special” to me, hitting all the right performance traits like the Diablo does for me.  There’s nothing wrong with my other components but they simply don't have that “perfect fitting old pair of jeans” set of qualities.

By the way, I totally agree with you regarding upsampling or downsampling. But many dacs also provide an "unsampled" option. Do you think that is good enough or is there some trickery going on behind the scenes although the manufacturer calls it unsampled? Just curious to know what your experience has been,

Hans Beekhuyzen reviewed the MU1, praised it to the heavens and subsequently purchased and placed it in his reference system. According to him the up sampling feature can be turned off. So in this case it seems off really means off. Having said that, the majority of users universally praise the up sampling capability.

Charles

@lalitk From my experience, building a dac module as part of the amplifier is a tale of two cities. For example, I did not like the built-in dac in the Hegel amplifiers. Not that they were bad per se, but they could be bettered by even a $2k standalone dac. You get the feeling that it was an afterthought, or something that was added for convenience only. So people just assume that this would always be the case.

But some companies, e.g. Accuphase as you mention, don't treat this as an afterthought. There is a lot of design and engineering considerations that go into the process. It also depends on the expertise/mastery of the designer. 

By the way, I totally agree with you regarding upsampling or downsampling. But many dacs also provide an "unsampled" option. Do you think that is good enough or is there some trickery going on behind the scenes although the manufacturer calls it unsampled? Just curious to know what your experience has been,

“People forget that when a designer creates a module like this there are other synergies at work that allow him or her to squeeze out more performance”

+1, @arafiq

Sometimes we can’t get pass the notion that a ‘add-on module’ can’t be as good as separate component. My $1K phono module in Accuphase performed much better than a stand-alone phono costing 3.5x.

@nyev I think it's silly for anyone to suggest that the dac in Gryphon is not worthy of a higher end streamer. The only reason this dac doesn't cost $10k is that the designer did not use a separate chassis and other parts. People forget that when a designer creates a module like this there are other synergies at work that allow him or her to squeeze out more performance. I heard the Gryphon with the dac last year and I think it competes favorably with standalone dacs costing up to 10K or even more.

@lalitk I’m concerned, just leave the re-mastering, Upsampling or Downsampling in the capable hands of artisans in the recording studio.

Preaching to the choir.😊

The Grimm MU1 may be an exception to the rule scenario. But I definitely understand where you’re coming from in principle. I also believe that the less manipulation, the better.

Charles

@charles1dad

I completely understand the argument about ‘real world SQ’. I know atleast two very highly regarded DAC manufacturers (AudioNote and Abendrot) that doesn’t do DSD (an important consideration for me) but I wouldn’t hesitate to jump on the first opportunity to own them as a sidekick to my amazing Merging DAC.  As far as I’m concerned, just leave the re-mastering, Upsampling or Downsampling in the capable hands of artisans in the recording studio.

@nyev

A higher quality digital source be it music server or CD transport is going to improve the overall sound quality. I know that some believe the DAC is by far the most important but I disagree. Both of these components are vital for achieving good sound. They operate in tandem.

Charles

@adasdad , I’m surprised no one has mentioned my lowly Gryphon Diablo 300 DAC module before you did! You are right it is a bit of a mismatch. Cost wise the MU1 is only a little more expensive than my DAC module (although the DAC doesn’t have a big chassis so…) but that’s not saying anything really.

Not sure if there is anything to it but I’ve heard many say “It’s not the chip, but how it’s implemented”. That said I’m very familiar with the DAC’s strengths and weaknesses, and I’m sort of tied to it’s character, and the fact that I don’t need any extra cables or boxes. It does have a very slight hard edge in the upper midrange, but it’s offset by a dense and rich tone everywhere else (which I like) so it’s not really noticeable. Unless you crank it up, then it sounds hard/shouty, but I don’t listen loud.

In my experience, I’ve found that lesser components keep on sounding better and better if you keep feeding it with better upstream components - I’ve not found that lesser components hit a ceiling when fed by a component of a certain level or higher. Of course a world class DAC would sound better than my Diablo DAC module, but I’m fairly certain an MU1 class streamer/server would sound better with my DAC than a lesser class streamer/server. I’ve heard a school of thought that at beyond a certain level of streamer/server, the DAC stops mattering as much, and vice versa - at a certain level of DAC and beyond the streamer stops mattering as much.

Interestingly, Innuos seems to have launched and demonstrated it’s uber expensive Statement Next Gen (costs almost 2X the MU1) in Munich last year connected to a Gryphon Diablo 300 with its DAC module! At least it appears that is the case from the YT video. There is no DAC visible and just the Gryphon and an Isotek conditioner.

“Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

In one word - NO. ‘The Best’ is often contingent on your budget and rest of the system. I’m sure you’ve heard the saying, one man’s garbage is other man’s…

I don’t fancy any DAC or Streamer that can’t play files natively. Upsampling or Downsampling is a non-starter for me.

No doubt dac is critical to the entire equation. Don't know what port on Gryphon is best, but whatever dac one utilizes has great import as to streamer chosen. Optimized usb on dac is generally going to be XMOS or Amanero supplied usb board, some may use proprietary solution which may or may not be as good as the two listed above. If usb  not optimized on dac no sense in spending needless money on streamer with best usb utilization.

As for Sabre chip dacs, I've had 9018, 9028 and 9038pro chip dacs. The 9018 getting pretty long in tooth, newer Sabre chips easily win on resolution/transparency. Per usual, implementation is key.

My own streaming solution is bespoke and requires much diy so not for vast majority of streamers who require plug n play. With my streamer I have versatility to try optimized usb, aes/ebu or I2S rendering and choice of HQPlayer, proprietary Stylus and Roon music player software, also one box or multi box solution via Sonore optical.

If money is no object, I’ve read reviews that the Mytek Empire is outstanding in every way. One of, if not THE, best with a world class DAC.

Curious if anyone here has heard 1 or owns 1.

Sound advice here.  The MU1 is one of the best out there, only your ears can tell if it is the right one for you.   I’ve selected it as my reference streamer, my best results are thru AES with a Jorma digital cable. 

our investment in the gear should never be the end game, we should strive to maximize our enjoyment”.

+1, @ghasley

I couldn’t agree with you more!

+2 😊

Charles

@nyev, if you’re in the market for a $10k Grimm music streamer, then you’ve got better problems that I do. Lol. Yes many folks are looking for a one box solution to cut down on all of the plethora of accoutrements that can proliferate in a dedicated listening chain. The fact that you’re apparently wedded to your Gryphon Diablo DAC module is IMO the place where your digital signal is going to be tied up, because no matter how great your streamer is, the whole setup is not going to sound fantastic unless you’ve got the absolutely best DAC that you can justify having. To that point, the ESS Sabre ES9018 DAC chip in the Diablo 300 is bettered by several other manufacturers options. To me it just doesn’t make sense to put a $10K streamer in front of a $4,500 DAC. Ideally I think the other way around would be more effective. Just my $0.02

“our investment in the gear should never be the end game, we should strive to maximize our enjoyment”. 

+1, @ghasley

I couldn’t agree with you more! 

@nyev 

Alot depends on our goals but you posting "but need to draw the line on cost somewhere!" is particularly relevant. Optimizing what we do so that it aligns with our sonic values for the $$ we wish to invest is intelligent. Each one of us can probably "afford" whatever we want within reason. I read alot on this site where someone has obviously overspent and we are wise to leave that kindof thing to someone else.

For me, I just don't want my hifi rig to be relevant in any way financially. That's me...other's may choose differently and that's their decision. We have a dedicated listening room but we also have the occasional car that drives past, the HVAC system cycles on/off and our golden retriever will occasionally bark or at least stop by to take a nap...and she snores....and like many here on Audiogon, she will occasionally pass gas.

I mention all of this because its wise that our investment in the gear should never be the end game, we should strive to maximize our enjoyment. The money is secondary. These are appliances that we can appreciate the job they do but they shouldn't be some shrine. In short, it isn't that we can't hear the difference between a Taiko and a Grimm...we can. Same goes for a Grimm and a Bluesound....is the gear going to serve the purpose we want it to serve or not...

@ghasley 

Thanks for the update! 

I’d have the Oladra and in particular the new Statement on my list, but need to draw the line on cost somewhere! The new Statement was on my list to start with. Then after I heard from Innuos that for streaming the Pulsar would meet the performance of the regular Statement (not the new one though) at half the cost, it put the cost of the new Statement in perspective for me! If the new Statement was 25-30% cheaper I’d definitely consider it,

Just looking basically for comments by owners I am still in the research stage don’t want to regret my purchase 

I have an Ayon S10 mkll Signature for sale if anyone is interested? 

probably not the comment you were looking for, captainsteve? 😊

Any comments for Ayon S10 mkll Signature seems to slip under the radar

@sns 

If you consider the K50, then maybe you should also consider the Antipodes Oladra, which is their new flagship.

 @vgmbpty brings up one box vs multi box solution, whole other can of worms. This is where the rendering capability of streamers really comes into play , and I'd agree the one box solution becomes the more expensive proposition, especially if usb is preferred mode. Optimizing other ports may be less costly for streamer manufacturers, which may be reflected in streamer price.

Based on optimal usb rendering via one box solution, my choice in recent streamer purchase came down to Wadax, Taiko Extreme, both above my price level, Aurender W20SE, Innous Statement were others seriously considered, this new Statement looks very nice. All of these do usb rendering at highest level, may be others I'm unaware of. Antipodes K50 also seriously considered as it's very versatile unit. All these have first class power supplies as well. Grimm wasn't in my purview at the time.

Pricing of above units starts at something close to $20k, top flight usb rendering in one box solution costs big bucks in my view. May be reason to reconsider purchasing dac with usb as optimal port for some. Or one can go with two box solution at more reasonable price level.

At this point I'm finding streamers and dacs with optimized AES/EBU to be intriguing, not as difficult, read costly to implement as USB. The above mentioned review of Antipodes K50 compared to Grimm is enlightening. Also like the Antipodes other preferred path of two box solutions via their optimized network ports in K series.

Maybe consider latest iteration of Statement….

- Kudos to the previous poster for bringing up HiFi Advice. Christian does a great job comparing servers. He seems to specialize on digital.

- Another reviewer, Hans Beekhuyzen, who actually bought the MU1, is now using it as a streamer only because of its CPU limitations it was not able to manage his music library. He uses a NUC as core now.

- Also consider that if you like Roon, single box solutions are much more expensive than separating the streamer from the core. You can have a very good streamer/storage like the Melco N10, and do the processing in an i7 NUC running ROCK with a good power supply and isolated through fiber. This combo beat the 25K Oladra in several high end set-ups where it was being tested, and this is what I bought. By the way, if you read Christian’s review, read the user comments too. There are extra insights there.

- I heard the latest Antipodes Oladra and did not like it. Found it super detailed but too much analytical, while the Melco N10 was much more organic (sounded analog vs digital sounding). It is the best USB output I heard.  I am aware it could be a matter of personal preference. 

- I understand OP logic of a single box solution. I chose separate boxes for streaming because testing and future upgrading is easier, and is significantly cheaper than single box solutions too, while keeping an outstanding organic sound.

- I agree with most posters. First follow your ears and then consider architecture and cost.

@jl1ny , +1 as well! My point lower in the thread is that many individual accounts seem to corroborate the admittedly goofy Huff. And other reviewers too. Christiaan at HiFi Advice is much better - he directly compared the general sonic qualities , all things being equal, between the Antipodes K50 and the MU1. Interestingly, he changed his tune slightly as both brands made hardware and/or software revisions over time. While he at first characterized the MU1 as being quite organic, it seems that with hardware updates he followed up and said the sound has become more neutral, and a bit more “propulsive”. He also said in a video comment that the MU1 has become more lean in comparison with the K50.  Two months ago he said this on a YT comment:

Hi Nick, The performance of both servers is codependent on Roon performance but the K50 also allows other server/player solutions which have different relative strengths. In general, though, under equal circumstances, the K50 sounds bigger, richer, fuller, lusher, and more relaxed. The Grimm on the other hand is more refined and precise and cleaner/leaner but arguably more transparent. Both have great focus. The measure of depth and 3D imaging greatly depends on the output format/interface. For the best depth and layering, use the K50’s AES/EBU outputs. Used in that manner, it sounds a little deeper and more enveloping than the Grimm. Tangibility is a little subjective and personal as it ties in with crispness and/or depth perception, depending on what matters most to the individual. Therefore, in terms of tangibility, overall, I would say it’s a tie between the two.

@grannyring 

I bet that Grimm is so enjoyable. Did you add file storage? Curious what digital cable you are now using.

2 TB. I have a Shunyata Sigma v2 AES/EBU. Its such an unfussy, flip it on and forget about it piece of gear and I enjoy it. If I had it to do over and if I had acquired the Grimm before my dac, I might have tried some other dacs at lower pricepoints. With the Grimm, since the dac internal clock isn’t utilized, I can’t help but think it might be more dac agnostic than most server/streamers.

@jl1ny +1 Huff is goofy. 

@nyev 

Sorry man, you lost me at “Steve Huff”.

@ghasley

I bet that Grimm is so enjoyable. Did you add file storage? Curious what digital cable you are now using.

@lordmelton 

I use separate isolation transofrmer for N30.

Even though N20 is a better value, I do not regret buying N30.

Thomas

Bill (grannyring) you and sns  emphasize a sometimes overlooked/underappreciated factor which is optimization of signal connection of both the server and DAC. When people say AES is better than USB or RCA SPDIF (Or vis versa) or I2S is better than all others etc. This is not necessarily true. You need to know what the manufacturer deemed the optimized signal connection for the given unit. As we all acknowledge, there are a multitude of important variables that demand thought/consideration.

Charles

@grannyring indeed, the Grimm USB ports are normal, computer quality USB. The AES output which takes advantage of the Grimm clocking/proprietary upsampling et al are otherworldly.

You and I once had identical digital server setups with the Zenith Mk3 and Sense. It is very, very good. Quite possibly, the Zenith Mk3 utilizing Sense may just be where chasing any more performance activates the steepest law of diminishing returns known to mankind. All the best to you....

@sns

Well said and spot on. Even the software used for playback has enormous impact. If comparing Innuos to Grimm, be sure the Innuos gear used Sense, not Roon.

Better cabling, footers, fuses etc… all can greatly impact a specific player. Simply too many variables involved for absolutes.

I recently added a $195 SR Purple fuse to my Innuos Zenith and the sonic results were spectacular. I mean shockingly so. This one variable changed so much. My dac sounds best using USB and I have a wonderful sounding USB cable. The Grimm unit is very intriguing, but I cannot use it as its USB output is not very good. So many unique system variables to consider. 

@sns

Wise counsel and perspective by you that is par for the course. I understand the wish for an ideal comparison that would unequivocally sort out all of the upper echelon servers. This just isn’t realistic precisely for the reasons you logically presented. Simply too many variables involved.

Charles

Direct fair comparisons of streamers is extremely difficult to undertake. What dac streamer is partnered with extremely critical as best port for rendering is unique to each streamer, same goes for dac. Optimal matching means best port on streamer to best port on dac. For instance, Antipodes claims AES/EBU is best port, is this best port on any particular dac it's partnered with? Other streamers claim USB, I2S, in that case usb or I2S should be optimal port on dac.

In regard to general reviews, streaming setups so variable, and likely unique, to point they may hold little value for you. Has network been optimized, what about ISP quality, music player software, optimization of OS, and I could go on.

I believe proper integration or matching  of streamer to dac is seriously undervalued at this point in time.  Quality of rendering is one of the most critical operations in streaming, matching optimal rendering ports on streamer and dac is absolutely necessary in order to hear full potential of any streaming setup. Far too many reviews don't evaluate streamers in their best light, leave out comparisons of different ports to optimal ports on dacs.

In evaluating streamers on their own, I pay very close attention to how rendering is implemented within streamer, dedicated power supply and clocking on dedicated board is optimal, ports coming directly off motherboard subject to higher noise and less than optimal clocking.

@shkong78 Yes, I prefer a one box solution if possible and the extra $$$ can be allocated elsewhere.

Both the N20 and N30 are massively influenced by power cables.

If you get a chance try an Audioquest Dragon PC on your N30, you will then be very close to "The Best".

@jeffseight There must be someone in the audio world wise enough to do a thorough analysis

of the top streaming gear, fairly compared, and give us some intelligent insights?

I doubt that you’ll find anyone in a position to compare all of the “top tier “ regarded music servers. Probably the closest would be Christiaan Punter’s Hi-Fi Advice site (Netherlands). His reviews are lengthy but thorough.

He definitely does not shy away from doing direct comparisons to competing components. This is refreshing compared with many present day reviewers whom seek not to offend.

Jeff, keep in my even if one were to do this comprehensive comparative review you desire, it’s still only one individual’s opinion and impressions.

Charles

@jeffseight , you are right, that is why I've been "mining" user comments from forums.  Just a theory but I think when it comes to streamers many have an opportunity to demo a particular brand/model and they just move ahead.  While they all have sonic differences, my speculation is that streamers from reputable brands, unlike other HiFi components, all can all sound good to most people.  I highly doubt anyone with a great system could listen to an Innuos Statement, an Antipodes K50, or an MU1, in isolation from hearing other similar class products, and think "Nah, that's definitely not for me".  But I do think if given the chance to compare, one will be best.  Again, this doesn't work for other components - things that sound great to some can sound downright awful to others.

It does seem that quite a few folks who trial the MU1 versus Innuos, Aurender, and Antipodes find the MU1 to be "best" to their ears.  Simply from reports in other forums.  I have yet to see an account of someone trialing the MU1 against others (BEFORE purchasing) and going with one of the others. Let me know if anyone finds one.  @fuzztone this is what I was getting at with this thread with MU1 being potentially the "best" - not that expect that it could be or is.

@jeffseight , HiFi choice is definitely the best pro review site when it comes to streamers.  The reviewer doesn't talk like other pro reviewers and gets into actual differences.  That said I don't think he's done any Innuos reviews.

There do not seem to be any "Reviewers" willing to do a proper

comparison between top streamers from various companies.

I have been asking myself why for 5 years now. Or did I miss the 

last word review someone wrote comparing Aurendar, Innuos, Grimm,

Taiko, Lampizator, LeJonklou etc.

I own the "One Box Solution" Innuos Zen Mk3 and love the thing. Streams, Rips

and Stores. Why all the other makers don't copy this format is beyond my

comprehension. 

I recently had the good fortune to attend a presentation of the latest

Linn Klimax Streamer. About $40k if memory serves.

I asked the company owner which enhancement of his new product bears the primary responsibility for its exceptional SQ?  Answer, The DAC of course! 

There must be someone in the audio world wise enough to do a thorough analysis 

of the top streaming gear, fairly compared, and give us some intelligent insights?

I’ve been perusing many, many other forum posts on other sites that substantiate the pro reports, which is really what I was after with this thread (either support or contradict the pro reviews).

Speaking in absolutes really gets folks on Audiophile forums going, as there of course are none, and it disrespects other great components that are out there.. My apologies for being absurd! :)

General consensus of qualities of the MU1 vs Innuos Statement and Antipodes K50 I found to be:

• The MU1 is organic, natural, transparent, revealing, with class-leading spacial imaging, with great musical flow.
• Versus Innuos Statement which is also truly great but may be slightly less organic.
• And versus Antipodes K50 which is more organic and rich, vs the MU1 but less revealing. K50 also has excellent "musical flow". Detail is described as "dense".
• People talk about musical engagement most with both the MU1 and K50 it seems.
• I don' t quite know where Aurender fits into this mix.

Yes, each of our experiences may vary from the above depending on tastes, systems, and rooms, but these are common attributes described by a mix of pro reviewers AND individuals. I think this helps my understanding, knowing nothing beats my own ears.

I find discussions like this of value because it just such discussions that led me to audition the Gryphon Diablo 300 when I wasn’t finding any amps / preamps I liked in home demo comparisons. I ended up buying the Diablo a few years back and still absolutely love it and haven’t considered upgrading even once. I also find that how people generalize the qualities of the Diablo are 100% consistent with my assessments of it, and why I ended up choosing it when I couldn’t find anything else I could live with in that price range. I even agree with the one or two slightly negative comments on the Diablo 300 DAC module’s sound, but I still love it for it’s good qualities and have no desire to replace it. Hopefully I agree with the consensus on the MU1 when / if I get a chance to audition one, but could easily pivot if I find the consensus to be untrue for me.

@ghasley

I have not and would never. I like Aurender way better than Roon although I’m doing fine without either.

Just pointing out the absurdity of the OP. ​

Have you ever read a review of a product in an audio magazine that wasn’t very positive (best ever heard)? Every review is like that. How about the TAS review of the $70k server that the reviewer (Harley I think) states it was the best ever he has heard and this server was in the Axpona room that was voted the worst room of the show by many.

Better streamer software is from Roon or Audirvana, then LIGHTNING  DS, everything else is secondary.

+1 @lordmelton

After auditioning Aurender N20 at home, I bought N 30 which I am happy.with

But N20 is a good value.

N 30 give very slight more details and clarity but may not be worth twice money.

Thomas