Grimm MU1 Streamer - Really "The Best"?

@nyev reading your post about the PhoenixNet, bear in mind that it is a 100Mb/s device, so it would limit the network speed of your whole house if you put a second one in where you were pondering. We now know that a lot of streaming devices sound better running on a 1Gb/s connection speed, which the PhoenixNet cannot do.

I’m really interested in getting my hands on that AES cable after reading Aurender’s marketing pitch on how much better it is than USB. Which I know is just marketing.

It’s clearly aimed at differentiating from Innuos who only do USB - except for the fact that their brand new Pulse products support AES, and my guess is all their new products will as well.

As others have said what matters is which interface they’ve invested in. But here’s the thing - if Aurender has invested in making AES good such that they recommend it over their USB interface, and the USB interface sounds good, then how much better will AES be? I’ve seen countless accounts of AES being far better than USB on the Antipodes K50, but I’ve not seen this as widely mentioned for Aurender.  Yet it seems Aurender and Antipodes are aligned on prioritizing AES.  Aurender claims:

Ultra-High-Quality SPDIF and AES/EBU Digital Audio Outputs

The N20’s AES/EBU, BNC, Coaxial, and Optical outputs provide a superior musical presentation with some DACs due to the superior clock and oscillator. As opposed to asynchronous USB connections, where the DAC pulls packets of information from the player, N20’s SPDIF audio outputs push the signal out to the DAC at intervals defined by the on-board precision OCXO clock. With a clock this precise, once heard, you’ll want to use it.

@nyev 

The newer power conditioner I have took four weeks until the sound went from analytical to musical. And week five brought about a good bit more improvement as well. I was wondering if I'd have to try a different power conditioner, but it all worked out, but 5+ weeks seemed like a long time to me! So I get your comments on the K50 for sure.

FYI - I'm using Nordost Heimdal 2 AES and I also tried the equivalent Heimdal 2 USB and I thought AES was ever so slightly better. And it didn't hurt that the cable was shorter so less mess behind the rack. -I've read a lot good about Jorma and I may try better AES cables in the future. I think Lalitk probably knows some good options.

Thanks for sharing @pokey77 , good story! And yes I’m totally with the general advice that things will likely change with a week or more of run in.

One of the other network players I want to try, the Antipodes K50, is widely known to take many months before it fully settles, with very sudden improvements that show up every 1-2 months during this time. Word is it can be a bit harsh prior to this burn in. Not sure if that is specific to the K50, but I’ve heard similar accounts from owners of the new Innuos Statement Next Gen. Apparently it is the power supply that needs this breakin the most.

The best thing so far about thenN20 is that some of the things I found to be less desirable about my system’s sonics that I had attributed to my speakers are resolved now (sorry speakers I love you again….). That was a nice surprise. The question is whether, over time, I’ll notice other less desired elements, simply from getting attuned to the sound more!

The other wildcard as mentioned is the demo AES cable that is en route. Aurender’s marketing and some on this thread had suggested that the AES cable will sound superior, so it may or may not be a game changer. Aurender’s marketing language suggests the advantage of their high precision clock with AES will drive the DAC and be better than USB.

This has been a very interesting thread so far.

As several others have mentioned, letting the N20 run for a week would be a good idea. I'll go on record that most likely it'll need that or more given the fact it really hasn't been played that much by the prior owner. Let me share a story with you I'm living through now.

I've been working a bit on Network optimization. I have a Shunyata Hydra 6 power conditioner that I'm not using and that had been in two systems over the course of approximately 15 years. I recently replaced the Hydra with a much better power conditioner in my main system and so it was free. The Hydra has been sitting for a year in my office and I finally decided to use it in my Network; the Hydra 6 now powers my router, ER + LPS, fiber endpoint coming into the house, and a computer + monitor and powered speakers. Sound Cliffnotes: upon listening to my system, the sound was much worse with the Hydra 6 than with the $25 power strip that had been there. It took 10 days before the sound started to open up and it was changing a little each day for the better. It took another five days until it really started on song and my system has now never sounded better, but I think this burnin/settling has not fully finished yet. I share this with you because I thought I shouldn't really have any or just a little burnin/settling since the Hydra has literally 15 years of use on it. I found that to be totally untrue. So my advice is to just give the N20 time, I bet you'll get much more out of it. I've had an N10 for four years and have had my eye on the N20, so I'm very interested in your findings. Have fun while doing all this!

@lordmelton yes you’ve read between the lines correctly. Will let it run for a week and see. I also need to go back to my old setup for a few days to validate my findings, down the road. I find my perceptions sometimes change after this step. An example is when I tested the Nordost Valhalla 2 cables over my Audioquest Diamond cables. At first I was immediately ready to shell out for the new pricy cables. “Component level upgrade” and all that. But after a few days, and going back to the Diamonds later, I realized the jump in performance wasn’t as large as I had initially perceived. Certainly not a component level jump, at a component-level price! So I didn’t proceed.

Back to the Master Clock concept - isn’t that only of value if you have a DAC that allows for a clock input, so all your digital devices are using the same clock? Or does this benefit the N20 in isolation? I don’t think a stand-alone DAC is in the cards anytime soon.

Update:  I also don’t think a Master Clock is in the cards anytime soon given the price lol!!!  The Aurender MC20 I think costs more than all network players out there, aside from one (Taiko).

@nyev Congratulations on your N20. Reading between the lines it sounds to me as if the N20 is sounding more unforced and natural.

The N20’s signal is un-tampered with, not oversampled or clocked but upsampling is available on SPDIF outputs.

However I digress. Let the N20 run in for a week or so, you can play an internet radio station 24/7 when you’re not listening.

One thing is for sure it won’t sound any worse than it does now...lol

As @lalitk advised there are many stages to achieve what the N20 is truly capable of, so take your time and plan what you would like to do next.

The "X factor" of course is getting a master clock, but not yet.

Think maybe firstly your streaming setup may need some improvement but before you do that download your favourite files onto the N20 SSD and see what SQ you are getting.

Anyway well done and looking forward to more reports.

Regarding network switches, I do have the Innuos PhoenixNet in the chain with the Aurender, as I did with the prior Innuos gear. I find it helps a lot - ironically it brings the Innuos setup slightly in the direction of the N20’s sound. Why do these things help? Who knows. But I think it has to do with reducing noise introduced in the chain that ends up on your speakers. Every cable in our systems will introduce some level of noise, and putting in mitigations for that have an additive effect on what ends up playing on your speakers.

Or as I tell my non audiophile friends when they ask what that box does: “It cleans the filthy internet so my stereo sounds better”. Might as well lean into the crazy that goes with being an audiophile.

My PhoenixNET is fed by a 50ft cable from a generic Ethernet switch in my house’s smart panel downstairs. I’ve wondered what might happen if I were to replace the Dlink Ethernet switch in my smart panel with a second PhoenixNET, so the PhoenixNET at my stereo is starting with an already “clean” signal. Not something I’m planning on trying, but…

@ghasley 

You have affirmed what I pretty much suspected. The Network Acoustics Muon filtering system is the real deal. It will be a part of my upcoming audio streaming system. Thanks for sharing your latest listening experiences.

Charles 

Okay, after some good warmup time, here are my initial thoughts. My Innuos setup and the N20 both excel in different areas!

As stated above I am in the earliest phase of assessment. So, my thoughts are sure to evolve. I think it’s pretty typical to immediately notice the good things for any new piece, but the less good things can require some soak time living with it for an extended period before they come out. So I may be more attuned to any slight differences in my Innuos setup having lived with it for some time. And currently I’m only comparing USB before my AES demo cable arrives (hopefully soon).

One note on the relative fairness of this “fight” - while the N20 costs more than my prior Innuos setup, with the Innuos Statement the tables would be turned and the Statement costs a fair bit more than the N20. Not that pricing is the be all and end all, but it’s sort of like how boxers have a “reach” advantage/disadvantage vs opponents. In my case the N20 has the advantage.

Overall, I’m relieved I hear a big difference. I would have been disappointed but not surprised had I not heard much of a difference. But I do! One big caveat is that I think my preferred player is system dependent, and that my preference would likely have been different in my old system before my upgrades last year.

Innuos Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB reclocker :

• Someone in another forum had said Innuos “is the closest thing to a concert hall experience”. That one note from one individual stood out. Because I always thought my system sounded like a concert hall, where the listener is set back from the performers. I always found the vocals to be set back in the 3D mix of instruments. I wasn’t sure how I felt about this effect - with some music it was brilliant. I always thought that the effect was due to my speakers but that one person’s comment stuck out for me. Sure enough, with the N20, this effect disappeared and the music is more “front row” now. Currently I’m preferring this effect but it could be just as a novelty.
• My Innuos setup has better mid and high frequency resolution. There is no question. I can hear air, breath, and raspiness come through with vocals much clearer with Innuos. Maybe this difference will change as my N20 warms up more.
• My Innuos setup has a bigger front to back soundstage. I’m not sure I actually like that fact, as currently I’m enjoying the immediacy of the Aurender.
• The Innuos setup has bigger (but not better) bass, in terms of going lower! I’m not certain this would be true if I measured it, but the way bass is presented between the two, that’s what my ears hear. Reserve judgement until you see the N20 counterpoint on bass below.

Aurender N20

• Number one biggest thing I notice is that everything is smoother and with less edge across all frequency bands. Very inviting.
• To use crutch-words: “organic”, “good musical flow”, “natural”, vs my prior Innuos setup. This is the one that is harder to put into words. Overall I can get into the music easier and it takes me further away from focusing on HiFi pyrotechnics. Not literal pyrotechnics thank goodness. It’s a simpler sound, more essential. Sorry if these aren’t descriptive enough as I’m describing the effect on me rather than the attribute of the sound…
• Slightly more engaging sound - all frequencies delivered with a bit more energy/conviction (but still smoother than the Innuos setup). This leads to more “snap” to the music, with better PRAT. The effect on me is that it seems like the music is playing faster even though it’s not.
• Front to back soundstage is not as deep - vocals forward, presented more evenly (and I think, naturally) with other instruments. Don’t get me wrong the soundstage is still impressively deep. The width I think is the same, but one thing is that the Innuos has more crispness to electric guitars on the very edge of the stage whereas the Aurender has more meat/fleshiness.
• While the Aurender seems to have less overall bass (subjectively speaking), the bass is more satisfying and I don’t feel like I am missing anything. The bass is more tuneful and with more rhythm. It integrates better with percussion because of this. I think this leads to delivery of music as more of a cohesive whole.

Overall I am currently enjoying the Aurender more, but remember it’s the new piece! Which always has the initial advantage over the old piece due to human bias. I’m sure I’ll uncover nits with time. Maybe I’ll start missing the better resolution of the Innuos. The Aurender sounds less fussy and more simplistic, and is more “down to basics” and getting all that right. The Innuos is more about doing all of the range of things audiophiles talk about at a more extreme level, in terms of ultimate resolution and depth of soundstage. Again I cannot say that I prefer one brand over the other, this is just a comparison of the two particular setups from each brand. Finally, I’ll say this: my system has become very, very revealing after my upgrades last year. Possibly/probably too revealing as my system has become ultra finicky with respect to speaker positioning, quality of power, etc. Had I not applied these upgrades and with a less revealing system, I think I may have preferred the Innuos setup as it might have squeezed some more detail out of my less revealing system. The Aurender may have been a tad too smooth before. Takeaway is stating the obvious - my preference is almost surely system dependent.

​

Aurender N20 is quite a bit more expensive than Innuos Zenith, even if you add the cost for USB reclocker. A better comparison would have been with N10. FWIW, I tried the N10 last year and did not find the Innuos Zenith MK3 lacking in any way. It was a coin flip and I only went with Zenith due to Roon support. Hopefully, someone can compare the N20 with Statement for a more fair assessment.

While I recognize that the OP has purchased a pre-owned Aurender for trial, another Grimm user asked that I post (repost) my comments from another thread regarding the fabulous new Network Acoustics Muon Pro streaming system and my experience with it and the Grimm MU1. I had commented earlier in this thread my appreciation for the Muon streaming system when I owned an Innuos Zenith and my bewilderment that the Muon system didn’t seem to enhance the streaming experience with the Grimm.

Yeah it sounds pretty fantastic with the Muon Pro streaming system and I thought it sounded fantastic before, but I'm trying to get my arms around what is really happening. Some out there might scream confirmation bias...but they would be wrong. I have no skin in the game and further, the cost of these, while not insignificant to many, is immaterial to me. The Network Acoustics Muon Pro made a HUGE difference to an already exceptional presentation provided by my Grimm Audio MU1 Server/Streamer. Wow, just WOW.

From router to switch I have swapped in 3 different ethernet cables (AQ Vodka, Totaldac ethernet cable/filter, Network Acoustics Muon ethernet cable) and the Network Acoustics Muon cable sounds more effortless and "alive". Its probably my imagination but that's how it settled for me.

From my Network Acoustics Rubicon switch into my Grimm Audio MU1 server/streamer I tried the same three ethernet cables by themselves and I really couldn't tell them apart.

I then tried the same three cables with the Network Acoustics Muon filter and same result, no discernable difference. Now with my previous Innuos Zenith Mk3 server, the Muon filter/Muon cable made a material positive difference. As I've stated before, I figured the Grimm just didn't need the help or, put another way, I assumed the Grimm "solved" many/most of the same issues that the Muon streaming system addressed.

Next up, I inserted the new Network Acoustics Muon Pro ethernet cable and Muon Pro filter in between my Rubicon switch and Grimm MU1 server/streamer and ... SNAP! ... it was almost a component level positive change. Unreal.  So, the dilemma...and the question: why does ANY of this stuff make a difference? LOL. It does make a material difference but WHY?!?!?

The Grimm (and many other products of a similar nature) loads the entire song (or album) into its memory and then, in the case of the Grimm, it does its magic to the file and plays it back to my dac via AES/EBU. I can disconnect the ethernet cable from the Grimm "on the fly", then "hot swap" to the next cable and the music never stops playing. I can then queue up a new track, it travels through the Muon Pro system into the Grimm's memory so that I can A - B in a reasonably controlled way.

I hear what I hear and I would prefer the previous outcome with the other cables: no material difference....but there IS a material positive difference...but why? Many servers are optimized for 100mbps and it appears the Grimm and the new Muon Pro are both optimized for a Gigabit. Whatever the reason, the Muon Pro was developed for studio use and it has made an amazing difference. 

@lalitk

Both Innuos and Aurender makes great streamers and from here on your personal taste of the sonic signature in the context of the rest of the system will ultimately be the deciding factor in your choice of streamer.

I am in agreement 100 %. Personal preference is the dominant determinant. All of the really fine components have trade off strengths and weaknesses. Listeners inevitably pick and choose.

Charles

“But as of now my biggest fear is that I will be unable to part with the Aurender N20”

@nyev

As a long time Aurender user, my suggestion would be to not let N20 go before you had a chance to compare it with MU1 and K50.

Once N20 settles in your system, you will hear clearly that it excels in terms of low frequency extension and slam. You will also notice an edge in terms of perceived detail. N20 doesn’t quite smear or soften the top end details as Innuos. In contrast, Innuos is little more gentle on top end. I found N20 to be ultra detailed without being etched or forward. 

You are in phase 1 of your audition, take your time. Phase 2 would be optimizing the N20 with cabling, isolation and after-market fuse. There is a grounding lug on N20 (more on that later). For now just listen and compare :-)

Both Innuos and Aurender makes great streamers and from here on your personal taste of the sonic signature in the context of the rest of the system will ultimately be the deciding factor in your choice of streamer.

After decades of having experience with breakin/warmup time with components, inevitably with every new piece I try my mind tries to convince myself that breakin/warmup won’t happen in this instance, and in every case but once I’ve been proven wrong (I didn’t notice any breakin effect with my Gryphon amp). The Aurender N20 has changed a lot already. Very glad I resisted the urge to comment on the sonics at first, as it’s much better now. It was doing some great things at first but the few weak areas I noticed during a very brief initial test are no longer an issue.

I should also emphasize this is not a fair face off between Innuos and Aurender.  The Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB reclocker’s cost is lower than the Aurender N20. I expect Innuos would prefer if I was comparing a Statement (but not the new one with upgraded power supply which is double-uber expensive).  Statement was a bit more than I wanted to spend and there aren’t any used however.

I want to say more now, but I just know how much things can change through warmup!  The seller of the N20 had the unit all boxed up for weeks after using it for only a month or two.  I think it needs at least 12 hours or so of run time.  Also I should ask the seller how many hours he broke it in.  Not going to say the Aurender is “better”, because at this point there are a few things the Innuos does better, and a few things the Aurender does better.  But that said I am really liking the sound of the Aurender.  I’ve also snuck a quick test adding the PhoenixUSB Reclocker to the N20 output.  Sound changed less than I expected, but it changed.  Hard to say at this point whether I prefer with or without the reclocker.  It’s different!  Things will become more apparent after some warmup/breakin.

But as of now my biggest fear is that I will be unable to part with the Aurender N20.  I’ll describe the sonic differences I perceive after I’ve run it overnight, and I’ve had a chance to go back to the Innuos setup for a while

An impressive start for the Aurender. I’m very curious as to how the Innuos and Aurender “house sound/signatures “ contrast. I’m looking forward to further comments/listening impressions.

Charles 

My new N20 arrived.  Plugged it in and connected it.  The unit is still physically cold.  Played a few tracks.  Out of respect for both brands (coming from an Innuos Zenith Mk3 plus PhoenixUSB Reclocker) I will wait to comment publicly on what I hear until I’ve run it overnight.  But for now I’ll say two things:

1) I can’t believe how a different music server can sound so different. And,

2) The N20 sounds very, very nice.

My demo AES cable (Audioquest Diamond) is probably arriving in a week.  When it does, I’ll compare it versus USB (also using an Audioquest Diamond).  I am also going to see if my Innuos PhoenixUSB improves the Aurender USB output, which would imply Innuos does USB better.  But not really a fair comparison as Innuos would have the advantage of the separate box and power supply.

Okay I’ll say one more thing for now.  I REALLY want to try the Grimm MU1 and the Antipodes K50 as well, and my plan was to buy and sell each of them used so I could live with each for a while and really get to know what I like best.  But as of now my biggest fear is that I will be unable to part with the Aurender N20.  I’ll describe the sonic differences I perceive after I’ve run it overnight, and I’ve had a chance to go back to the Innuos setup for a while.

Update: rather than buying an AES/EBU cable outright to try with my Aurender N20 and Gryphon Diablo DAC and compare with the USB interface, my dealer confirmed they can get a demo Audioquest Diamond AES cable sent to me to try.  This will make my comparison with Innuos USB (and Aurender USB too) more apples to apples, since I currently am using two Audioquest Diamond USB cables with my Innuos Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB.

My incoming Aurender N20 just took off from Chicago/O’Hare and is currently cruising at 35,000ft.

@metaldetektor, I personally didn’t see how your post could have implied you were affiliated with any sellers - all good from my perspective.

And, I think your assessment that the used (and scratched) MU1 list price seems a little high is valid, despite the fact that it has a memory and ssd upgrade.  List prices are easy to figure out.  If I’m not mistaken, the N20 lists for $2k more than the MU1 and yet I paid less for my used mint condition N20.  Which I think was priced fairly for a mint condition unit used for only two months.

@metaldetektor no worries whatsoever and I agree with your premise. Over the past several years, I have found high line car dealers and high line audio dealers far less flexible on discounting than we have all grown accustomed to. With those dealers with whom I have good relationships they share, almost sheepishly, that they simply can't discount much, if any, right now. It all depends on the product. For instance, the dealer might say "the backlog on speaker A is 1 year...I ordered these a year ago and I have a queue. I would jump you to the top of the list and sell these to you for X% off normally but I have a waitlist and the manufacturer has a queue and I just can't right now."

That seems to be the industry right now...its the parable that Yogi Berra so perfectly summarized so many years ago when discussing a particular restaurant "nobody goes there any more, its too crowded". The inverse is also true...if something is readily available these days, its likely not in high demand.

I understand Grimm is backlogged, Devore, Audio Note, Shindo, Leben...a number of others, especially hand built items...the combination the supply chain woes and the limited ability to ramp up output...thats what has spiked used prices/demand. I used to sell a piece of gear and then buy the next. Same with cars....do that today and you are going to have to like walking and singing because certain cars and audio gear just arent available, they are backlogged.

@ghasley Didn't mean to create confusion, nor did I want to imply that you were in any way affiliated with that advertisement. You are clearly not. I'm not sure I even saw you post, before I posted.

In terms of pricing, a dealer would know best the current MSRP -- my point was simply that it's a little bizarre to see an ad for a used unit, priced above what a brand new unit would go for (after giving effect to a typical "frequent buyer" discount that some dealers will give).

@latik This not based on my own listening, this based on many reviews/comparisons over last couple years. This is simply my order of preference, not an objective or presented as objective order of hiearchy. Whatever the true order, I don't believe there's any question these are amongst the best streamers out there. May be others I have no knowledge of. I also base my ratings on the amount of proprietary technology that's gone into these particular streamers. I know some Individuals that have  been trying to clone the Taiko for some time now, gave up the pursuit and simply purchased the Taiko.

@nyev 

Couple of brands for your AES cable consideration; Audience, Acrolink (if you can find it used), Acoustic Revive and Combak (aka Harmonix). 

Since there's been some discussion of rendering, usb in particular. I was just reminded by poster in my network thread about the 5v power feed in usb. In case some aren't aware, some dacs don't require the 5v feed for power or handshake, in this case either purchase usb without the 5v feed or tape over 5v leg inside connector. Noise rides on this 5v line, removing should decrease noise floor. I've long done tape method with my favored AQ Diamond USB.

“I consider Wadax, Taiko Extreme the two big dogs, up to now Aurender W20SE, Innuos Statement, Antipodes K50 tied for third, Statement may now be pulling ahead of Aurender, Antipodes with new PS and optimized usb for me.”

@sns

Which one of the top flight servers/streamers you auditioned in your system? And which DAC or DAC’s did you pair these servers to arrive at your ratings of one, two and three?

I do like advice of using Cable Company, I used them extensively years ago when trying to determine the value cables of all kinds bring to systems, very enlightening! Never had issue with returns and I must have gone through hundreds of cables in total.

@nyev I'll be very interested in outcome. SPDIF/ AES/EBU is intriguing in that at least some high end streamer manufacturers use it as their reference scheme. I presume its easier to implement in dacs as well, perhaps even in dacs with optimized usb, AES/EBU could provide best sound quality, you're comparison could enlighten here.

I also really like the Innuos Statement with new Sean Jacobs ps, and they continue to believe in usb, provide optimal, perhaps best usb rendering. For anyone thinking I'm dissing on Aurender, I consider Wadax, Taiko Extreme the two big dogs, up to now Aurender W20SE, Innuos Statement, Antipodes K50 tied for third, Statement may now be pulling ahead of Aurender, Antipodes with new PS and optimized usb for me. I've done my due diligence on streamers for quite some time, go to the most experienced streamers on audiophilestyle and whatsbestforums for advice. I believe  all of the above streamers can provide highest sound quality, the best for any single individual's setup is the determining factor, this is choice for that individual to make. Just because I went in different direction doesn't mean I don't highly respect all of these manufacturers.

@nyev 

The Cable Company is the easiest USA access point for Jorma. Much of the adverse feedback over the years for The Cable Company comes from those The Cable Company have cut off from their generous return policy. You see some people exploit the return option vs paying the appropriate fees to access their lending library…and then they do it over and over. Then, once cutoff, they come on forums and whine about it.

Use the The Cable Company, they have them in stock and ship promptly.

I’m looking forward to testing AES with my N20 but Jorma and their NA rep Vantaltd has not got back to me on my request for a 1.5M AES cable.  Yet, but it’s only been a day.  

Anyone know where else I can get a Jorma cable?

I suppose this “competition” I’m about to run when my N20 arrives is not just between Innuos and Aurender, but also between USB and AES on my Diablo DAC module.  As it is my only DAC, sadly I’ll be unable to see if the results are generally consistent on other DACs.  I know Gryphon has put a lot of focus on the USB interface of my DAC (including a supercap that  powers the USB instead of the source device) but I have no idea about the AES interface.  But it seems people on this thread suggest, if I understand correctly, that the input device takes over when AES is used, implying the DAC AES implementation quality matters less.  Not sure if I got that right.  
 

IF the Innuos wins at USB, but the Aurender AES sounds best overall, I’d think Aurender wins the battle overall. For me at least. Fun times……

A rational conclusion if this were to be the outcome.

@sns is right. Whichever signal path output/input a given brand has chosen to "optimize" will be their best sounding. Most concentrated attention and focused efforts (Design and implementation) subsequently determine the sonic performance.

Charles

@sns , @lordmelton , I suddenly am very much looking forward to seeing whether my PhoenixUSB improves the Aurender N20’s USB output to see who is right!

I suggest leaving the subject alone until I render my verdict! :)

I do wonder if this battle would give Innuos an unfair advantage, since the PhoenixUSB has its own dedicated power supply in its own dedicated box.  I suspect just having a separate power cord to power the clock in isolation could be an advantage.

I have a lot of respect for Innuos based on my experience. And I know a lot of others have a huge respect for Aurender, so my expectations are high for when the N20 arrives.

IF the Innuos wins at USB, but the Aurender AES sounds best overall, I’d think Aurender wins the battle overall. For me at least. Fun times……

@lewl28 

The Esoterics are nice dacs for those who like Esoteric. This particular model is a streaming dac which is even cooler, however, it isnt what the OP was asking for.

Esoteric N-01XD?

@lordmelton Yes, I've gone on and on about usb rendering, and that is because I and others have experienced the benefits of optimal usb rendering via many of the dedicated usb devices out there. Why shouldn't I point out the possible liabilities of less than optimal usb when what constitutes optimal usb is known to at least some manufacturers and users of these manufacturer's devices!

I've stated the possible reasons these streamers don't utilize optimal usb, this being they find other rendering schemes superior. So, whats the problem, I think you have problem because I'm critical of Aurender usb implementation. Charles seem to have understood my conditional criticism of it! I understand you love your Aurender, have need to defend it, I'm agnostic about brands and schemes, have long realized sound preferences are totally subjective, I haven't the slightest idea about sound quality of your setup. However, there are some objective criteria in audio, technical aspects of usb rendering are one of those, high quality filtering, power supply and clocking are optimal, nothing can change this equation unless one wants to simply believe this not to be true.

Update, since the much talked about and lauded Jorma AES cable is similar in price to the Audioquest Diamond (even a bit lower cost possibly), I’ve reached out to Jorma directly and also to Vanaltd.com who they list as their North America rep.  Hoping I can get a trial or purchase with return privileges.  Does anyone know of any other dealer that sells Jorma?  Other than The Cable Co that lists them, but I understand that people have not been having the best experience there over the past couple of years.

@ghasley , I agree with all of your points. My Valhalla 2 speaker cables don’t seem to constrain the midrange warmth of my Diablo amp and DAC, but they most certainly don’t add warmth. I found that the Valhalla 2 USB and power cords do however attenuate bass vs Audioquest, unlike the Valhalla 2 speaker cables. Had this not been the case I would have gone full Valhalla 2 throughout.

My desired balance is to have a fuller, solid, fleshy and well-grounded bass and mid, but with ambience, air and transparency through the entire band, including high frequencies, all with crisp leading-edge emphasis but not at the expense of the rest of the tones. Have I achieved that? Not 100% sure actually! I could use a touch more “groundedness” (if that makes sense) in the mids maybe, and maybe touch more confidence and transparency in the higher frequencies. Maybe my exploration of network players/servers will help with that.

I did read one single person’s characterization (so grain of salt and all that) of the Innuos sound to be “the closest thing to a concert hall experience” as a differentiation from other players. That description to me doesn’t quite jive with my objectives noted above, and I do actually think that concert hall description may apply to my system’s current sound to some degree. Vocals are quite far back in the mix and my system does set you back from the soundstage quite a bit. This is distinctly the opposite of how people describe the Diablo, which is often described as a “front row” presentation. Maybe if this person is right I will lose that concert hall effect changing out the player. We’ll see.  But it also could be more my speakers than anything.

@nyev As I said above, everyone has their sweet spot when it comes to cabling. I mentioned in another post that I preferred Vodka to Diamond in AQ ethernet cables. But I prefer Network Acoustics ethernet to Audioquest so there’s that. I also didn’t say that Valhalla or Diamond were bright, I communicated that they weren’t warm. I’ll admit that its parsing words, a difference without a distinction.

We can all agree that cable A enhances some things with DAC A, depending on our goals. Room acoustics have as much to do with it as the gear. I have a friend to whom I sent my Shindo amp/preamp and A23 interconnects that he found bright. Holy heck, never heard anyone think Shindo was bright but it turned out his room needed acoustical treatment. In short, you have to admit that very few in our hobby have dropped in Valhalla to achieve warmth…to many they are the epitome of neutrality, to others they are lean. Many believe their version of neutrality is “meat on the bones” while others think thats too warm. Horses for courses and the only opinion you have to respond to is yours. No one besides you understands what is happening in your room, with your gear, your dac, your wire and most importantly, your desires.

@grannyring My system hasn't been updated for a long time, but yes Steve McCormack is a fantastic guy and my VRE has been wonderful and will be getting Steve to work his magic on it again soon.

@ghasley , I would say that Audioquest Diamond and Valhalla 2 USB cables are revealing - not sure if I would agree they are bright?  Maybe.  Rightly or wrongly, my goal is to have my amp and DAC provide a touch of warmth, which the Gryphon does, and have all of my cabling be as revealing as possible.  Rather than the cable adding it’s own character or masking things over. 

Understand @lordmelton. I suppose we each have differing sensitivities and I get it. By the way, I checked out your system and you have some great gear! I owned several of Steve’s pieces, Empirical Audio, over the years. Also, the VRE-1 preamp is spectacular!

@grannyring With all due respect to yourself, he's not happy because Aurender doesn't publish their proprietary means of USB isolation.

Therefore he believes they don't have one. Been going one about this since forever.

Whatever.................had enough of it!

@sns 

I appreciate your posts and know this subject is important if one wants the best sound quality possible from streaming.  

@sns 

I continue to be curious about this ongoing lack of optimal usb utilization in so many high end streamers, obviously Innuous and some others know how to do it, to not include it these high priced streamers is a crime in my book.

Yeah, it's a crime but they still keep flying out the door.

Maybe you should try listening to one sometime instead of scrawling your vast diatribes of shite....

USB cable length posts are interesting. I designed and built many USB cables  over the years. I made lengths from 13 inches to 2 meters. I listen extensively to all my cable builds and frankly heard no issues, no sonic differences, with USB cables under 1.5 meters. None.

I do not think the 1.5 meter minimum length for best sound theory applies universally to all USB cables based on my building and listening experience. I have not tested other USB cables in this way so the theory may be true from some.

My builds varied conductor types, levels and types of shielding, build geometry and connectors.

@sns I can only come to conclusion they find totally optimized usb inferior to top flight SPDIF. The question is have they indeed done this?

That could very well be it. Perhaps these manufacturers have done their own testing and comparing and find AES/EBU-SPDIF BNC/RCA better sounding than USB. It is certainty plausible.

Charles

I'm betting on Phoenix usb vs N20, the only statement Aurender makes in relation to usb port is that it's isolated, doesn't say anything about power supply and clock. The preferred output on it looks to be all the SPDIF,  most of their efforts went here, clocks and power supplies.

This lack of optimal implementation of usb in vast majority of plug n play streamers has been my major issue with them since usb is optimal input on my dac. None of the Aurenders provide for the most optimal usb,  W20SE seems to max out here, still not best available.  Still, in the end it may not matter if using SPDIF with your dac, or with any dac provides better sound than usb.

I continue to be curious about this ongoing lack of optimal usb utilization in so many high end streamers, obviously Innuous and some others know how to do it, to not include it these high priced streamers is a crime in my book. And this is why I became much more interested in custom builds based on Windows platform. I can utilize great variety of optimized, top flight rendering via Pink Faun and JCAT usb, AES/EBU, I2S, coax, net cards. All have superior filtering/power supplies which can be powered via external lps vs motherboard, also have OXCO/Femto clocks, this is superior rendering, anything less is less.

Assuming  these top brand streamer manufacturers actually know how to build and implement top flight usb , and have tested and voiced them with dacs implementing top flight usb boards, I can only come to conclusion they find totally optimized usb inferior to top flight SPDIF. The question is have they indeed done this?

@nyev 

Most everything we’ve learned about ideal USB cable length is applicable to…USB cable length. USB cables do a very different job in a very different way than AES/EBU cables. For instance, USB cables are also called upon to carry an electrical current since many dacs (and printers and other computer peripherals compliant with the universal serial bus standard) require it for their USB ports/handshake to operate. Many USB cable makers for Hifi offer their USB cables with/without the power option. Curious and Final Touch Audio quickly come to mind.

Many of your posts talk about your desire for detail and warmth. While they aren’t mutually exclusive, there are some cable “flavors” that do head down one road or the other. I wince ever so slightly when you mention Valhalla and AQ Diamond as they don’t typically bring warmth to the table, but everyone has their own preferences. I have found there are a wide array of differences between USB cables, AES/EBU cables are far less variable.

@nyev Congratulations on your purchase. I've found a solid silver USB cable is best, so an AQ Diamond is ideal.

1.8m for USB

1.0m+ for ICs

1.0m is ok for PCs

Nordost are bright and revealing

Get some SR Purple fuses

Wow, seems the used uber-premium AES cables are mostly 1.25m or less. After my experience with short (sub 1.5m)USB cables sounding far worse than their > 1.5m counterparts, I’d think many are unknowingly undoing the benefits of premium cables by getting shorter cables so they can afford them. Or they simply expect shorter runs are better as that would seem to be logical. I found the the vast performance benefits of longer USB cables over shorter versions BEFORE I read the vendor recommendations on the matter (1.8m or longer according to the Nordost FAQ).

I’ve not done the same comparison with power cables but others say 2m is best. And, Nordost has earned some credibility with their cable length recommendations as what they say matches what I discovered first hand (for USB at least), before being informed of this.

Thinking I should just buy a used Audioquest Diamond AES cable so it will be a fair comparison to the USB Diamond I have. There is a used one 50% off of retail that appears to be in good condition so thinking I may go with that.  Will hang on to it for my eventual test of the Pulsar/K50/MU1, all of which will be a ways off.  Will also see if I can get a demo Sigma and Omega just to compare.