Good Used Speakers ($8K-10K) For A Little Listening Room

Moto Man,

Here is how we would recommend that you handle the project.

1: Go to visit as many audio dealers and or shows you can

2: Make a list of products that intrigue you.

3: Evaulate in your room if possible.

4: Purchase and set up

5: Then once the speaker is in your room then consider room treatment if necessary.

Ask yourself how does the system sound now.

If your room has slap echo you can deal with that by using panels, rugs, pillows, furniture, wall hangings depending on budget.

Bass boom is best hadled by electronic room correction and if necessary tube traps.

You should look for monitor speakers with bass down to the 40hz level but nothing which goes way deeper than that.

We would urge you to consider the Legacy Calibre/Wavlet combo because the speakers sound amazing, they have good but not crazy deep bass, you can get the powered bass version and with a wavelet and be able to tune out some issues with a small room, and you are getting a very good preamp, dac, and room correction processor as part of the package. 

We heard them for the first time at the New York audio show and they were amazing  also with the Wavelet you can adjust the final sound and can equilize the sound to match your ear as well by modifying even the corrected response. 

I would look at: Focal Sopra 1,  ATC SCM 40, obviously the Joseph Audio Pulsar, KEF Ref 1, Harbeth 30.1. Paradigm Person B, and see which of these compact Reference speakers will work for you,. just remember a passive speaker means  you will be more at the mercy of the room, with an active room correction system you have a start to work with the room.

Axpona is comming up maybe you should see if you can go.

If not do you ever get to the New York City area for business?

If so you can visit this part of the country and hear almost every major speaker system out there as a possiblity.

Good luck and enjoy the ride.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Thanks so much for everyone's input.  So many recommendations and choices, that, other than room treatment of some sort, its difficult to really know what to do.  First, I don't really have a clue as to how to figure out what room treatment is even necessary, other than to, presumably, hang a shag rug on the rear wall to absorb sound.  I'm looking into that issue.  Second, though and more difficult, is how to parse through everyone's suggestions without actually hearing any of the interesting speaker recommendations.  I'd hate to blow 8K on speakers and find out that to my ears, I didn't like them.  How does everyone deal with that issue . . . Go to an audio show where you will likely hear as many different speakers as you want, subject to the other equipment used and the room setup there?

Hey moto_man,

Are you learning anything from all this swashbuckling that has adorned your post?

Used Focal Sophia #2's..
XTZ sound Divine Alpha..

Any thoughts on pairing a Audio Research 75SE amp with the Persona 9h's?..Good potential match, or not?..Other suggestions welcome..

If I’d listened to the "big speakers don’t work in small rooms" mantra I’d have deprived myself of a lot of great sound.

+1 @prof 

The Raidho xt series plays great in small rooms with abvriety of gear. Definitely worth some consideration - they are high resolution but still forgiving

for that room size I'd definitely go for bookshelves, rather big and high performing ones, with relatively small drivers that are fast so they dont pollute, and that can be adapted, tuned to your room and/or liking using back switch and bass plugs. No need to go second hand at that price, just get the XTZ Divine Delta brand new and prepare to learn that real high end performance is available at more reasonable prices. I own several speakers, some costing $35,000, and I also own several XTZ speakers.... My other choice would be Tannoy Legacy Cheviot for an extemely energetic, lively, musical sound. All these will pair perfectly with your Plinius.

How about the latest version of Totem signature one’s? I owned a pair years ago in a 12x12x8 ft room and they sounded great with Mac and classe separates. I added a rel subwoofer but the new model 1’s have a bigger woofer than the older versions.

I would love to have your problem.8k to 10k to spend .

I would go with a stand mount 2 way if it were me.  I have a big system in a big room and also have had many systems in my smaller bedroom.  I am always amazed at how much bass a small speaker can pump out in the bedroom compared to my giant speakers in a huge room. I've had floor standers in the bedroom and they've always been a little boomy sounding.  With a space that small I wouldn't bother with a bigger speaker they aren't made for that kind of space.  Lots of exciting choices for 10K!

Headphonedreams,

So far we haven't been super impressed by the KII,s they sounded like a good monitor, they didn't sound really big, soundstage was good, but not blown away.

We can easily get them, Sound Org is their distributor, and we get Rega from them.

Unless we hear them sound better so far heard them at two Audio Shows and each time not blown away I doubt we will venture down that path.

I would take an Active set of ACT SCM 40 or the Calibre with the Wavlet.

Actually we were not interested in flooring the Calibres, at $5,500 plus stands you are in spitting territory of the full range Legacy Signture at $7k.

We just heard this combo at the last New York Audio show and the Cailbres were amazing. Perfect high performance monitor. Just add an Amp for the midrange woofer and tweeter and off you go.

Legacy was showing Active Calibres, active was in the bass, the rest of the speaker was passive.  They sounded freaking huge. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

@audiotroy have you tried the Kii Three? It has some built-in DSP, probably not as good as a separate system but if you like to use/sell that kind of solution it might interest you.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker

willemj
No you changed your post to cover that you had misquoted me.

You’re wrong. I only changed my post to reflect your actual statement. It’s because I didn’t want to misquote you. Are you intentionally being obtuse with all this cover up talk? Besides anybody can edit his post for any reason. I certainly don’t have to consult you. Furthermore you’re wrong about small rooms anyway, so who cares?

willemj,

Response not measured. No need so long as my ears are pleased.  Certainly my ears aren't going to be as precise as measurement tools,  but I’m very familiar (like many here) with the sound of poor bass response (boat, room nodes, lack of control, bulges/blurring etc) vs tight, tonal bass response. I’ve had a long list of floor standing speakers, some like the old VR 4 Gen 2 which were rated to 20hz, and they have all worked really well in my room. (I’ve had speaker designers visit and say so).

I’ve also owned many stand mounted speakers. The bigger speakers have always been more satisfying.

If I’d listened to the "big speakers don’t work in small rooms" mantra I’d have deprived myself of a lot of great sound.

The obvious question is how the RM25XLs sound in your room now?  Hard to believe they work well in there without at least some room treatments and/or some sort of EQ.  They are rated at down 2dB at 32Hz while the Pulsar and Perspective measure 42dB and 35dB also down 2dB, respectively.  So at least on paper if the 25s work in your room there's a chance the others might too. 

That said, I can't really imagine stuffing the Perspectives in a 10x10 room, and given the wider spacing of the drivers versus the 25s I'd be a little concerned about their ability to fully integrate at such a small distance (assuming you'll have to pull them out from the wall a foot or two).  I'd go with the Pulsars and augment with a sub (or better, 2 good smaller subs) with some sort of bass management (DSpeaker, etc.) so you can better integrate the bass with your room -- if you even feel the need to add a sub at all.

I'm also a big JA fan, and the only other speaker I've heard in person that does a lot of the same things and affects me in the same way is ProAc and maybe Verity, although I remember them being just a tad softer up top (at a show so the usual caveats apply here), which could be good or bad depending.  The Vandy Treo would also be on my list though I haven't heard it yet.  Personally I'd just stick with JA, but in case you want to explore others just thought I'd mention these other fine speakers.  Hope this helps, and best of luck in your search. 

13x15 is already quite a bit larger, of course, although still not very large. Did you measure the response?

Depends on the small room.

My room is 13' X 13', though more like 13' X 15' at it's greatest depth as there is a deeper bay window area behind the listening sofa.  The room was renovated with the input of an acoustician.  There is a 5 1/2' wide room opening to the hallway.

With my big Thiel 3.7s I have the best bass - in terms of being utterly in control to the very bottom, holographic, super tight - that I've ever heard.

And for those of you want to read up on room modes in smallish rooms: https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/history-of-multi-sub-sfm

No you changed your post to cover that you had misquoted me. And what I said is true: the smaller the room the higher the Schroeder frequency and the frequencies of the room modes. Try equalizing those, and the listening spot gets smaller the higher the frequency.

I think it was John Atkinson who said "Ahhh...big room, small problems".

Have to agree with Geof.

We are not saying not to use acoustical passive tuning 3 out of our 4 soundrooms do use some kinds of treatment however, our last 2 rooms at the New York audio show sounded fantastic and used 0 bass traps.

The active room correcton employed today by Anthem was designed to deliver flat bass reponse regardless of the room

We had thunderous deep tight bass in a ordinary hotel room 16 by 14 and the Persona 9H are rated flat to 17hz.

We looked at room plots before and after rooom correction and it was not subtle.

In the Legacy room Aeris produced clean tight bass in the same size room.

The Boehmer room correction is extremely advanced 0 bass traps in that room as well.

The Calibre with Wavlet provides a complete solution and would make an excellent starting point you can allways add bass traps and the amount of bass is tuneable.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Give me a break. What are you talking about? I edited my post to quote exactly what you said. And what you said is patently untrue.

Ah, now you changed your post: you added the 'good' that you did not include before. That is dishonest and misleading. But now you reinstated the word 'good' your comment is no longer relevant because it does not address the quality of the bass. And that precisely was my point.

This is what I wrote (and for everybody to see): "Good deep bass in a small room is quite simply impossible." That is simply true for the reasons I gave.

wiilemj, you stated,

”Good deep bass in a small room is quite simply impossible.”

That’s simply untrue for the reasons I gave.

Your comment is irrelevant. I did not say you cannot pump deep bass into a room. What I said was that it will not sound right, and for two connected reasons. The first is that the smaller the room, the higher the Schroeder frequency (about 280 Hz in this room) and hence the frequencies of the room modes (not to mention their upper harmonics). The second is that the higher the frequency that you try to equalize, the narrower the listening spot. If you want good deep bass you need a large room with a low Schroeder frequency. And avoid square rooms.

The wavelength of 20Hz is 17 meters. So by your logic almost no listening room can produce 20 Hz. I propose that most rooms, even small rooms, can support 20 Hz simply because acoustic waves can bend around the boundaries of the room. It’s the same reason why the acoustic Schumann Frequency of 7 Hz - the wavelength of which is obviously much longer than 17 meters - can be produced in any size room. An more extreme example is the electromagnetic Schumann frequency that has a wavelength equal to the circumference of the Earth, 25,000 miles. Yet the Schumann frequency generator produces the electromagnetic 7.8 Hz frequency in any size room. Hel-loo!

I love equalization, but in a small room it is not that effective. The reason is that room modes in small rooms occur at higher frequencies. Since such sound waves are shorter, the listening spot where equalization is effective also becomes smaller. Good deep bass in a small room is quite simply impossible.

@erik_squires Are you sure you’re disagreeing with the right person?

Um, sorry @Contuzzi - EQ is OK, but not as good as bass traps AND EQ. 

At the very least, EQ can cut out the severe peaks (20 dB is not exaggerating), allowing you to raise the overall level of the subwoofer to better match the main speakers. It's not ideal, since the overall problem of energy lingering too long remains, and it's impossible to fix nulls this way alone. 

Still, EQ alone offers major benefits, without necessarily achieving reference quality. 

Best,

E

AudioTroy you just lost your final bit of credibility.  Room correction WILL not fix what bass trapping can fix.

Two completely different things.

Hysterical.

Totem Elements or Fire might work Call David Lewis Audio

Room correction helps but it will not solve the problem.  It won't stop the room from having resonant frequencies.  If you eq the peaks flat it will sound weird because you have to make huge cuts.  Bass traps will actually reduce the peaks/valleys of the room.  Room correction can't do that.

Audiotroy, my dedicated room is small and square (14x14) with some alcoves that do allow for less bass boom. My main problem was not bass, but 1st order reflections. I did not blow a lot of funds to treat with panels. Less than $1000 spent to cover all 1st reflection points and no bass traps needed. Best money I've ever spent in audio.

I am a great fan of active room correction. However, the problem is that it does not really work well in small rooms: the correction frequencies are just too high, and as a result the perfect listening position becomes very small. Room eq is great in a large room, but in a small one there is only one realistic option: avoid low frequencies. There is no way you can avoid physics.
If you ever decide room eq is your thing, have a look athe DPSpeaker Antimode X4. It is probably the most sophisticated room eq pre amp on the market today.

Tomcarr, by the time you are finished with room treatment and bass traps you are going to blow a lot of funds.

The biggest issue with a small room is not first order reflections but bass boom. as the room being a perfect square will cause serious loading in the bass the OP may have furniture in the room which removes reflections naturally or perhpas not. 

If the room has slap echo that will have to addressed, belive it or not large throw pillows pilled up can work wonders with this for very low cost.

Not saying that acoustic treaments are not warranted but bass traps take up a lot of space and are expensive, hence our idea of using active room correction to remove the peaks in the bass without having to resort to taking up space with passive bass traps.

Active room correction is the answer. 

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Like others have said, get your setup dialed-in to play the room best, then do room treatment on all first reflection points, then bass traps in the corners if needed. Spend your money where it gives the most benefit.

Moto man, I was giving this some thouught. You have a difficult situation.

Too much bass and you get boom, not enough and the sound is thin.

You have an excellent amp,  so how about this idea:

A set of Legacy Audio Calibres with active bass and a Wavelet processor.

The speakers would cost $6,200.00 with the built in bass amp and the Wavelet is $5,000.00 for a combined price of $11,200.00 brand new.

Now you get a superb small monitor with active bass,  and you get a new preamp, dac, and room correcton processor as part of the package.

With this combination the processor can remove boomy bass and you can adjust the sound to deliver the sonic flavor you wish. 

So unless you move into something like this you will always be at the mercy of the room, with room correction you can acoustically take the room's limitions out of the equation and the Calibres offer outstanding sonics with deep enough bass to be satisfying without having to use some kind of woofer/sat combo. 

Just a thought.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Did the character in the Peanuts comic strip get his name from the Schroeder frequency? He played the piano and was cuckoo for Cocoa Pops about classical music. 😳

Get Fritz speakers, new, for half that. Anything with a ScanSpeak mid-woofer is going to be a pheonomenal 2-way. He makes several. 

Best,

Erik 

The Schroeder frequency if this room will be about 280 Hz. Below that you will suffer pretty bad room modes, and more so if your speaker goes lower.

Another vote for active pro monitor in a small space. I use ATCs at work and the immediacy is exceptional. 

I've read some Good tings about the Kii Three, and they seem to fit small rooms too. The bass is almost dipolar and they are very small. Some even use them as recording monitors which means they should also work well on short distances. They are active so you could sell you amp to afford them.

Pick up a pair of Von Schweikert VR4 JR s used. I have heard them sound terrific in a room your size

jwm acoustics Alyson. $8200 

You'll look long and hard to find a better set of stand mount speakers than the JWM Alyson AML.  I've heard them a few times, and they are incredible.  Just google the reviews from Secrets of High Fidelity and HIFIZINE.

http://www.jwmacoustics.com/new-products/alyson-aml-ph

I'd definitely look into active pro monitors that are intended for nearfield use.  Not only do they sound their best up close but they have active woofers that create inherently tighter bass.  Focal SM9, ATC SCM25 and a bunch of others in the range.

https://vintageking.com/recording/studio-monitors/active-studio-monitors-and-speakers?dir=asc&or...