I think if a tube is on, it's wearing out…I'd like to see what at atmasphere says about this.
For tube sound, which is more important: preamp or power amp?
I have always loved the “tube sound” - warmth, midrange, soundstage. Through the years (since about 1975), I have owned many tube and solid state amps and preamps, in various combinations. Presently, I have a tube amp and a solid state preamp. But like most of you, I am thinking of making changes, again. Not to cloud the discussion, the specific brands are not important. I also listen to acoustic music, females vocals, love mini monitors, EL34s, NOS tubes, and don’t care that much about bass. So you can see that my taste fits the tube sound very well. But I have had systems that are too warm, not enough dynamics or details, and fat in the low end, too.
okay, now to the discussion. To produce the tube sound, which is more important: the preamp or the power amp? Let’s talk in general, and (if possible? May not be) not tied to one specific piece/brand/model of equipment. I know there are exceptions to any general rule. Not sure if it makes a difference to your comments, but I have no phono and am running line stage only.
As an attempt to prevent the conversation as going in a big tangent, let’s assume equality of price/quality. i.e. not comparing a $10k power amps contribution to a system to that of a $1k preamp. Let’s also assume that the amp (tube or solid state) can drive the speakers just fine, such that compatibility does not limit the decision. And ignore mono blocks versus stereo amp differences.
two follow ons: I have the perception that preamps give you more bang for the buck - meaning that it takes less money to get a great tube preamp compared to a great tube amp. Agree/disagree? And second, I have never owned a tube dac or CD player, and will assume that tubes in either of these is less critical than in a preamp or power amp. Agree/disagree?
i am interested in your thoughts.
Bill
okay, now to the discussion. To produce the tube sound, which is more important: the preamp or the power amp? Let’s talk in general, and (if possible? May not be) not tied to one specific piece/brand/model of equipment. I know there are exceptions to any general rule. Not sure if it makes a difference to your comments, but I have no phono and am running line stage only.
As an attempt to prevent the conversation as going in a big tangent, let’s assume equality of price/quality. i.e. not comparing a $10k power amps contribution to a system to that of a $1k preamp. Let’s also assume that the amp (tube or solid state) can drive the speakers just fine, such that compatibility does not limit the decision. And ignore mono blocks versus stereo amp differences.
two follow ons: I have the perception that preamps give you more bang for the buck - meaning that it takes less money to get a great tube preamp compared to a great tube amp. Agree/disagree? And second, I have never owned a tube dac or CD player, and will assume that tubes in either of these is less critical than in a preamp or power amp. Agree/disagree?
i am interested in your thoughts.
Bill
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For $9500 list you can buy a pair of Carver 350 watt amps with a 10 year warranty and Bob claims the tubes will last 50 years: http://www.bobcarvercorp.com/350wattsamps " The DC restorer circuit, an exclusive to Bob Carver designs, keeps the output tubes running cool, prolonging their life to beyond 50 years! Prior to the advent of this feature in Bob’s amplifiers, other amplifiers operated their vacuum tubes at a very high idle power in order to keep the distortion low, frequency response extended, as well as for a host of other reasons, related to amplifier performance. And they still do. The downside of doing so is that the tube life is drastically shortened, about three to six years at the most. Worse yet, tube performance begins to deteriorate as soon as the amp is turned on, gradually (and insidiously) robbing the listener of sonic pleasure. In addition to extended tube life, thanks to this invention, there is also no need to purchase expensive matched tubes for the Raven 350." Now I know there are Bob Carver haters out there, but let’s try to keep to the facts. From those who should know, are these claims realistic? |
I like the Mojo around the Tube Amps and Heads.I have an old 1964 or 65 Kalamazoo Model 1 that sounds really kool for harp and I bought a Green Bullet mic last year to mess around with. The amps I got rid of to finance my foray into better Stereo and HT stuff were pretty kool. Marshall JCM600 & 4X10 Cab Half Stack, Mesa Boogie 50 Cal Plus Combo and an Ampeg Jet2 Reissue Combo that was the personal Amp of the Owner of St Louis Music. I have flipped a few Amps and Guitars in the last several Years.Heck,I mostly play acoustic.I am more of a Bonfire Troubadour..a 'G','C' & 'D' Blackbelt |
I had an early-ish Egnator for a while and it was really interesting in that you could pan between the 6v6s and EL84s…cool. I don't necessarily collect guitar amps but have owned, borrowed, and played through a lot of different tube amps over decades and have pretty much enjoyed 'em all. I started in the 60s with my cousins white Bandmaster (a friggin' great amp that I eventually owned) and a Magnatone which I didn't initially appreciate enough, and later used early 70s Twins with JBLs that were heavy and loud although the addition of the master volume knob made them work for me. Tubuler. |
On the lower end of a budget setup[still expensive to me lol]I have the Freya going into Emotiva XPA100’s and you can hear a difference between the "Hat Trick" of outputs.The tube output also imparts some gain increase.Where it really sounds good tho is the tube out of the Freya into the Primaluna Prologue 5 [has KT88’s in it now].So i would say the AMP makes the most difference for the Toobiness. Wolf, I also love the Tube Amp guitar heads and combos.My current fave is a DR Z RT 66 into a DR Z 1x12 Convertible cab loaded with a Scumback Speaker.I do not play out,just at home for fun,and I grab up low wattage Tube Amps when I can.BlackStar,BlackHearts[in the 1,5 and 15 watt sizes],Egnators[Rebel & Tweaker],Jet City,Epiphone,VHT Special 6 and a few others.Heck,they don’t take up much space.I actually have 3 of the Blackheart 1 watt ’Killer Ants’ with 2 of them having the Mojo Mod..ie Tone Control and Line Out.Solid State wise I recently picked up a Orange Micro Terror thats kinda neat |
What do you mean by "tube sound?" I think tube preamps are great because small signal tubes don't "age" much, so they're sound does not change. I think, done right, tube preamps provide a greater sense of "articulation" or "naturalness" (i.e. absence of glare) to the sound . . . and I'm not talking 12ax7 tube euphony. Tube power amps, with output transformers, inevitably interact with the speaker in ways that are not entirely predictable, changing the speaker's frequency response. The combination could be synergistic, or not . . . And, it's hard to get accurate bass from a tube amp, unless you're driving a fairly high efficiency loudspeaker. In any event, tube power amps that generate much over 75 watts per channel have lots of tubes, generate lots of heat and suck down lots of power. And, in my experience, even in a simple amp like a Dyna Stereo 70, the sound quality changes as the output tubes age. More elaborate and quality amps (Audio Research) have been known to self destruct in expensive ways when an output tube fails. Obviously, there are, at a price, tube power amps that do all things very well, but these tend to be both high maintenance and seriously expensive in the first instance. |
Either combination can give you a great dose of "tube sound". Of course power tubes need more maintenance, and the NOS flavors of large power tubes quickly approach $$$$/unobtanium territory. BUT there are really excellent Russian power tubes made today (KT120, KT150), and tube amps will often have at least a few crucial small-signal tube slots for you to get your NOS on. On the preamp side, higher gain tube preamps are more likely to cause noise issues your system (i.e. tube rush and/or microphonics excited during playback) than SS preamps or tube power amps. That bears consideration. Also, with a tube preamp feeding into a SS power amp it’s a bit more common to experience an impedance mismatch (i.e. high output impedance into a low input impedance, which throws away gain and caused significant FR aberrations), than with SS pre into tube power. Research potential pairings before proceeding, just as you have to research any power amp’s ability to drive your speakers. |
Also it’s another fact (!) that tubes are more fun…you can swap ’em out, hold them and look at them, collect them, watch and listen to them die (macabre, but part of the tube deal), bewilder friends. People ranging from my age group to my kid’s friends (mid 20’s) often have no idea what tubes are, which means I get to have fun trying to explain the damn things (guaranteed to bore the crap outta anybody). Interestingly, once explained to "normal" people, they still don’t care. At friend’s houses they’re often just yelling at Alexa to play something from a 1" speaker. I actually took a foam block and stuck some of my spare tubes in it just to look at them (that's called Art)…fun...stick a bunch of transistors in something so you can look at them…not so much fun. You can use a SS amp anywhere, preamp or amp, and although it may sound fabulous, I KNOW I’m having more fun. I rest my case. |
For me, in my system, it is tube pre into SS amp. However, upon listening to a friend's Martin Logan speakers with a SS pre and top notch Audio Research all tube amp, I realized that the other way around can be just as rewarding in the right set-up. Until hearing that I didn't think electrostatics could get past the somewhat plasticy sound of the mylar diaphragm. Didn't hear any of that with that tube amp. There was a harmonic completeness that my previous experiences with 'stats had never yielded. Beautiful music and a new healthy appreciation for the musical capabilities of electrostatic speakers. |
Inna, Yes Ralph is a respected tube equipment manufacturer and yes he offers an informed opinion ( something you’ve yet to demonstrate). He is not however an absolute or infallible source. There are other manufacturers of equal status who would provide different opinions, this seems blatantly evident. Nothing is etched in stone, certainly not matters of audio and sound. Inna you’ve yet to give a coherent answer. Al your bluntness is understood and appropriate, +2. Charles |
I have had the pleasure to own a fine intergrated SS unit which ran well by itself for many years. I then paired it with a tube pre-amp and a new dimension of appreciation began. Then I ran a tube pre-amp along with tube amp. Then tube pre-amp bi-amped with both tube and SS amp. My take away from all of this, to answer your question, is the pre-amp had the largest impact on my overall listening pleasure. |
Charlesldad and atmasphere among others provide good advice. My advice comes from a more pragmatic (and perhaps devious) point of view. Start with a tube pre-amp. The tubes are typically longer lasting and less expensive, for the most part. Once the mysteries of valves dissipate and their joys become obvious, then one will naturally migrate to a tube amp. Assuming of course, that your speakers are a good match for tubes. And then you'll never look back...Bwwahahaha!!!!! |
Ralph you of course make a compelling case for tube preamp and tube amplifier (which is my chosen route). The OP is asking which component would yield more of the tube character or effect on the audio system. Your argument for the tube preamp advantages I surely understand. However in the context proposed by the OP I would go SS Pre/tube amplifier rather than tube preamp/SS amplifier. Obviously as this interesting thread has demonstrated preferences are all over the proverbial map. This is as expected in this subjective realm. Charles |
Hmm. What is "tube" sound?Smoother and more detailed than transistor, more lower ordered harmonics which are harder for the ear to detect. Less higher orders that the ear easily detects as harshness. ************************ If you really really have to make a choice of which way to go, my money is on the tube preamp. The reason is simple: I don't care how good your amp or speakers are, if the preamp looses definition, there is nothing you can do to replace it downstream. Tubes simply make more detail than transistors (and also without brightness); they are easier to listen to for hours too, so send that to your amplifier. The problem here of course is if the amp isn't up to the task, you won't hear what the front end of the system is doing. I do regard the use of a tube preamp with solid state as a compromise. If you really want to hear all that is on that LP or CD, get a tube amp to go with the tube preamp. Some people think that they don't want the tube amp because of reliability or heat concerns. Tubes are easy to deal with (they are in sockets after all) and heat is a function more of what class of operation the amp employs rather than whether or not it has filaments. A solid state amp biased to the same level of class A operation will make 90% of the heat that a tube amp does. IOW, many tube amps run hotter because they are biased harder. Transistor amps tend to be biased at very low currents; that's the main reason they make less heat. |
Unless, of course, you need the power and control a high power SS amp can provide. Then a tube pre is the best bet. High power tube amps tend to be big, heavy, expensive and hot, not to mention they go through tubes much faster than a tube pre.. I'd personally love a small, near field listening tube rig with some sensitive speakers. But right now I love the power and control my tube pre/class D setup brings to the table.. I'd miss that if I switched. |
I've found that the "expense" of tube power amps based on tube replacement cost is assuaged by the fact (a fact to me anyway…which is as "facty" as I need) that often the tube amp is cheaper to buy relative to the sound quality of SS amps. Case in point: I compared some expensive SS amps here and there over the years to my faithful all tube (except the rectifier) Jolida 502P power amp and the Jolida, with nice sounding tubes, sounded simply better in every case, and was inexpensive…and now I own the best sounding amp I've ever heard, a Dennis Had "Inspire" SEP, which does require relatively efficient speakers but costs around 1200 (mine was slightly used) to 1500 bucks…an SS amp with this much mojo would be more money it seems. First Watt? 3 grand if you're lucky. And the Had amp has exactly 4 tubes. You don't like heat? I get that (sort of), but have never been bothered by tube heat unless I just burnt my fingers biasing or dusting or something…my mansion has AC anyway, and I can get my valet to dust if he hasn't been drinking. |
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Does not matter. What does matter is that the tube amp be matched with speakers that the tube amp is capable of driving properly. Also what matters is that if a tube preamp is used (higher output impedance) look for a power amp with higher input impedance as well to better mate with the tube pre-amp. Results will be better dynamics and lower distortion, always a good thing. Results may always sound "good". "good" is totally subjective. But by following these basic guidelines you can better cut to the chase and avoid discovering down the road that properly mated components work better together and hence almost always sound better as well. |
Al, Thanks for your kind words. I have the same thoughts regarding inna. It's perfectly fine if he doesn't want to go a particular route with certain components. However it's the dogmatic stance that this approach is BS, how so? What informs this conclusion?:That people have done SS preamps/tube amps very effectively is counter to a BS result. Charles |
Charles, thank you for your characteristically sage commentary. Inna 11-13-2017 Inna, obviously there are countless audiophiles who use tube power amps with fine results, and obviously there are countless audiophiles who use solid state preamps with fine results. And typically a solid state preamp will have no problems driving a tube power amp. So it seems to me that the question should not be what is the rationale for combining the two, it should be what is the rationale for describing such a pairing as "BS." Regards, -- Al |
@ everyone This thread has been a great read. Thanks to all for your contributions; good to be learning! Inna's point(s) have me thinking.... I realize expertise and business models and marketing and customer base all play into this, But are there major / well-thought-of players who: - build and pair pure solid state and tubed components, either order (I don't mean hybrids)? - show off their premium solid state component with another brand's tubed component, especially a solid state pre with a tubed amp? If so, what are your takes on the combos, if you have heard them? |
Are some of us becoming a little too "dogmatic"? And yes Inna, there really are many roads to Rome, so to speak. I am often astonished to hear about the combinations of components and wires and other set-up tweaks that yield great results for listeners. But there you are. We are human beings not machines. We all have unique hearing mechanisms and have diverse ways of listening and spaces in which we listen. Who are any of us to tell others what THEY are hearing? |
That is a loaded question .Having owned a Audiostore for years in the UK. universally a SS amplifier,Vacuum Tube preamp is by far the most popular for one heat , big tubes throw off a lot of heat ,and cost . Solid state has much more current capabilities,and vacuum tubes more voltage driven ,your speaker now has a say in what is required a maggi for instance is far better with a big SS amp having a tube preamp there are many choices and will still influence the signal . a tube amp ultimately being the last.stage before the speakers will dictate finally sonic flavor. That being said many great SS amps such as Vitus,Pass Labs Gryphon have a Tube l8ke character. I recently purchased the latest Son of Ampzilla which uses Bipolars on the outputs have a very detailed slightly warm Tube like nature but loads of control. a lot to think about to make a Synergistic match for your amp,or preamp together. |
The objective is to assemble a fine sounding audio system. My point is simply that there are numerous ways of doing this successfully. I went with one brand (Coincident) and their all tube components. This approach worked out very fine but so do other alternatives. I can appreciate you’d never combine SS preamp with a tube amplifier, that’s your call. I was providing examples of two very experienced and knowledgeable people (Al and Wolf) who’ve done this successfully. The Koda and Wavac is a hypothetical match that would be excellent sounding in my opinion. Many roads get you to Rome 😊. It may not make sense to you but it understandably makes sense to others. Charles |
I’ve been very stable with my current system, it’s a tube phono preamp driving a hybrid line stage (tube power supply, solid state stage) driving a single ended tube mono blocks. I’ve owned a tube dac and the tubes in the dac were just as important as any other tube in my system. It all adds up. I currently own a solid state battery dac. I have stayed with one brand, because there is very high synergy in the phono preamp, line stage, amp triad. |
