I prefer an amp that adds 5% 2nd order harmonics over one which adds 0.01% 5th order harmonics.I prefer amplifier that does not add any distortion. My Benchmark AHB2 has THD=0.00011% (-119dB, inaudible). Any distortion is coloring sound (reducing clarity). One might prefer to look at the paintings thru yellow glasses. There is nothing wrong with it, but he doesn't see what artist painted. |
@cleeds No no no, fidelity is my spouse being faithful to me, not me to her! Jeez dude. 😂🤣 Seriously though, I have no problem with the accepted definition of fidelity; it’s more a case of how that definition is applied in audio. I don’t consider high fidelity in audio as the ability of an amplifier to reproduce a sine wave accurately on a scope. Rather i see high fidelity of an amplifier to reproduce music in a way that I find it to be natural and accurate. The two are not the same, and most often some amplifiers will do the one well, the other not much. |
Anything added is distortion. Piano, for instance, has overtones stretched over harmonics. … best we agree to disagree on that one. Technically you are correct of course, however in music reproduction I prefer an amp that adds 5% 2nd order harmonics over one which adds 0.01% 5th order harmonics. The vast majority of posters here will make the same choice in a listening test. I’m looking at distortion in the context of how we experience music vs. what a scope will show. |
Perhaps we can find a way to kill off all acts, concepts, and aspects of individualism within the scope of humanity and all these disagreement thingies will finally go away. To put all these overly animated meat objects a nice neat simple (and quiet) box. I demand the right to stay outside of that box, of course, and do my own thing. But the box awaits you, all you problem children. Commoditization is your future. It would make my life a lot easier if you would just get in the dang box and stay there. |
pauly Everybody will have their own definition of what fidelity is ...What’s wrong with the commonly accepted definition? fi·del·i·ty noun: fidelityfaithfulness to a person, cause, or belief ...sexual faithfulness to a spouse or partner ...the degree of exactness with which something is copied or reproduced ... There’s no reason to make this more complicated than it is. Conversation is impossible if we can’t agree on simple terms. 2nd order harmonics is not distortion, 5th order harmonics is.Anything not present in the original is distortion, by commonly accepted definition. |
2nd order harmonics is not distortion, 5th order harmonics is.Anything added is distortion. Piano, for instance, has overtones stretched over harmonics. Octave higher key is not tuned to double frequency but to overtone of the lower octave key (otherwise keys would beat). Tuning person is winding strings up until beat stops. Because of that piano has accumulated error of about 30 cents at both ends of the keyboard. Playing piano thru amplifier that adds second harmonic, is creating beats - exactly against tuning to avoid it . With overly warm gear piano can sound even like out of tune. |
One can put together a system that measures really well but in the end, it’s not an oscilloscope that’s going to listen to the system-- it’s individual human beings, whose perception of sound and aesthetic preferences can vary considerably, to say the least. Agreed Everybody will have their own definition of what fidelity is, but to me fidelity does not equal measuring well on a scope. 2nd order harmonics is not distortion, 5th order harmonics is. Fidelity in audio is faithfulness to the reproduction of music, not faithfulness to reproducing a sine wave on a scope. Measurements that give the average deaf engineer wood is of no consequence to anyone with an interest in audio. |
Define what is "musicality" and what is "fidelity." Be very specific and use objective terms, not subjective terms. Once that is finished and resolved, then we can discuss why some equipment fails to reproduce musical performances and other equipment comes very close to "you are there" reproduction. |
@noske: "@stuartk perhaps you speak of musicianship? I'm not even sure that's a word. I am inclined to mostly agree with you" Musicianship is mastery of expressive means. That is half the equation. The other half is having something valuable to express. There exist musicians who display dazzling technique yet who's playing communicates little-- there is an emptiness at the heart of it, Likewise, there are musicians with limited technique who manage to convey something profound. |
@mijostyn: "The best systems make everything sound better, everything. When confronted with a system capable of the absolute sound everyone will think it sounds great. Everyone knows what "right" is when they hear it." I'm curious: what percentage of audiophiles would you suspect are able to afford one of the "best systems"? |
@audition............... As my system continues to improve, compression on recordings my be the single thing that bothers me the most. Thats where I am going with this if you notice increased compression when fidelity increases.......the system is less musical. There is some spectacular mid fi systems out there... |
@mijostyn I sometimes actually prefer to listen to less than optimally recorded music (like an old photograph) on an "ordinary" system like in the car. Focus blurred. Mistakes are forgiven. Bit of road noise. Judging by the volume of traffic in other places from people finding a previously favourite recording to be found wanting or difficult when played on an uber expensive high fidelity and high musical system coupled with high sensitivity speakers in a treated listening room, I’m not alone. |
"You better come on in my kitchen Well its goin to be rainin outdoors." @stuartk, you will know it when (and if) you hear it. A great system makes everything sound better, like an antique photograph looks better in focus. Even if it is black and white it can express a thousand words. Music is more than sound. It captures a moment of history. It's a long way to Tipperary. |
@stuartk perhaps you speak of musicianship? I'm not even sure that's a word. I am inclined to mostly agree with you. Many recordings from many genres and cultures from years long past sound as if they were recorded in a less than optimal environment. It has not stopped them from having a profound influence. Many examples, but as a guitarist you may be acquainted with folk including Robert Johnson and others similar. Anyway, back to first world issues of great import... |
RE: not mutually exclusive, it seems to me that, with all due respect to those whom have much more knowledge and experience than I possess, terms such as musicality and resolution are frequently bandied about here as though we all define such terms the same way. Judging from posts on this thread, we clearly do not! One can put together a system that measures really well but in the end, it's not an oscilloscope that's going to listen to the system-- it's individual human beings, whose perception of sound and aesthetic preferences can vary considerably, to say the least. We are all wired differently and it's not uncommon for reviewers to profess they enjoy a particular component in spite of less-than-stellar measurements. It's my impression that many audiophiles are fundamentally uncomfortable with the idea of simply pleasing their own ears. They somehow feel they must utilize objective baselines to justify their gear choices. As a creative person, I find this distrust of aesthetic judgement both very alien and very puzzling. I've played guitar for many decades but I do not require that my system precisely replicates the sound of my Martin or PRS or any guitar for that matter. What I require is that when I hear a recording of a guitar, that it moves me, physically and emotionally and this has far more to do with what the guitarist is playing than SQ. However, this is clearly not the case for everyone. There does indeed appear to be a divide of sorts-- on one side, those whose enjoyment of music appears to be largely determined by SQ -- how the music is presented-- and on the other, those of us for whom music is a vital necessity and who'd still listen even if we could only hear music on a transistor radio. The bottom line is, we are all wired differently and there's little we can do about it, so it's not a case of one approach being superior to the other-- to suggest that would be as ridiculous as asserting that blonde hair is intrinsically superior to brown hair. Whether this divide can accurately be described as a tug of war between musicality and fidelity, I'll leave for others to decide. . . what does seem true to me is that, in the end, each of us has to please ourselves. |
@pauly "Fidelity and musicality are not mutually exclusive; rather there is a high positive correlation between the two." Quite so. Everything else is hand-waving bordering on a religious experience - read over how many times people "believe" or convey their feelings and memories of a variety of ephemeral experiences. Hence my initial one word post right at the start of all this. Its a trick question by the OP, @ishkabibil. |
For me it's like comparing cars. A Lotus will be an exciting ride, but you probably wouldn't want it as an everyday driver. A BMW gives you a more comfortable ride and is still very enjoyable. So the uber revealing system is the Lotus, it will thrill you when the conditions are right...and perhaps irritate you when they're not. The BMW is the "musical" system that always aims to please. The unicorn is a system that can do both. Me personally, I started off in pursuit of the Lotus, but after 30 years have comfortably settled on a more balanced system that I enjoy immensely....all the time. I think the problem for a lot of folks is that they believe a "better" system will always make the music sound better. When in reality it can actually be the opposite. So the car analogy may be stupid to some, but I think it's a very accurate way to look at this. Everyone loves that shiny sports car...but do you really want one. It's all about balance. Tim |
“Fidelity is Musicality”! Surely one can dissect the sound from an audiophile perspective. But I choose not to “tear apart the flower”. By doing so, the flower is no longer beautiful. Admittedly, I do take note of the imaging. But am very fortunate to have a system that is able to create a suspension of disbelief. And that term brings me to a central element of the difference of a live performance. Amplified or not, disbelieve is not at issue. THE central element of a live performance is that there are human beings. Not an electronic recreation. No matter how much fidelity/musicality of a system, it cannot recreate a live experience. |
"It was the pinnacle at one time now it's "musicality" whatever the crap that is." My belief is that the term "musicality" refers to the tonal correctness of voice and instruments. Once "musicality" is attained in one's system, then disbelief can be suspended, and one can be transported into the actual musical event. Or, in the case of mono recordings, the event can be transported to you. :-) Frank |
HiFi Very few here are interested in fidelity. It was the pinnacle at one time now it's "musicality" whatever the crap that is.
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Hjghly detailed systems for me lose out in musicality. It is less natural.It might be that at home we got used to certain sound, that is different from live performance and we follow it? Perhaps we also try to compensate for music compression by adding some noise or distortion (as distorted guitar is more dynamic than clean Jazz guitar at the same level). I'm trying to get clean reproduction (accuracy), but if sound even with added distortion, noise and harmonics sounds natural/musical then it has fidelity. Fidelity is not accuracy - cannot be measured, being subjective. |
wolf_garcia ... Who was responsible for all of the digital reverb on the original mastering? The audiophile reissue is much better. And by the way, that drum solo on, I believe side two is fantastic. Frank |
I mixed sound for Patricia Barber a couple of years ago...acoustic piano needs no tube amps (!), just 2 high quality condensers. She asked us to remove the top of the Steinway grand completely which was a pain, and she wanted her own monitor mixing board right next to her. Done...Trio (bass and drums) and man...she's astonishing, one of the greats. |
@boomerbillone Ishksbibil on Bass @ 18 in '79 https://youtu.be/VPx3qjwyVww Toronto Alberts Hall with Peter Appleyard. Is that a clarinet in the opening? Sounds like it on my Galaxy S7 (free phone) and 3 years old........ Need I spend $$$ for accuracy? |
Hello ishkabibil. If you can't an oboe from a clarinet, you need more fidelity. If you can't tell a balalaika from a mandolin (Russian music) you need more fidelity. If you can't tell the sopranos from the . . . Get the message. You can follow the tune on a transistor radio. We spend the $$ in pursuit of MUSICAL ACCURACY, don't we? Keep smiling! |
charles1dad ... Thanks for your kind comments. And, you are entirely welcome for the CDs. I wish you would post more on this site. As a fellow vibes lover, I miss your input. :-) As a teenager, I used to go to the Lighthouse Cafe in Hermosa Beach, California a lot to hear the Howard Rumsey Lighthouse All-Stars. Sometimes, I would take a front-row seat that looked up at the drum-set of Stan Levey, who in my opinion, was the greatest jazz drummer of all time. No matter how loud the band played, or how fast the pace was, there was no "cringe factor" to the sound. Stan just played music on those drums like no one else, while chewing gum with a relaxed look on his face. That experience was all about musicality and nothing about fidelity. Take a listen >>> https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=Awr9NVVRrFJhWGMAXkD7w8QF;_ylu=c2VjA3NlYXJjaAR2dGlkA... https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=Awr9NVVRrFJhWGMAXkD7w8QF;_ylu=c2VjA3NlYXJjaAR2dGlkA... https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=Awr9NVVRrFJhWGMAXkD7w8QF;_ylu=c2VjA3NlYXJjaAR2dGlkA... Frank |
"When you go to a live, unamplified performance, of a small jazz group, or even a symphony orchestra, do you sit there and say to yourself ... "Oh my God! ... listen to that detail?" Music first. Fidelity second." Frank (@oregonpapa), There are some really thoughtful responses posted on this thread but you nailed it beautifully! As we both understand that these two characteristics are not mutually exclusive. But given the context and framing of the OP’s question you hit the bullseye. BTW Frank a few years ago after an enjoyable discussion about our frequent attendance at live jazz venues you took the time to send me CDs of some of your favorite jazz musicians (T. Monk, Cal Tjader, Milt Jackson et al). I still listen to them on a very regular basis. Thanks again my friend 😊. Charles |
