Ethernet switches the good and bad

Is there a downside to cleaning up the signal right before entering your streamer?  I have an inexpensive dumb switch from Amazon and cheap commercial CAT 5 in the walls of my new house.  I couldn’t get the builders to upgrade the Ethernet cable.  I added a Shunyata Sigma Ethernet cable from the wall to my streamer and it made a substantial improvement to the sound.  Am I to expect that a $2000 switch will substantial improve the sound?

@vonhelmholtz “It can”, but it doesn’t mean it will. It will depend on the amount of noise coming in as the Ethernet Switch UEF will do an incredible job reclocking and filtering the signal. For me, I had the EtherRegen a few years ago and it made minor to negligible difference. But then someone suggested for me to add a $600 Farad Super3 LPS, which then I added a $1K cable to. Noticeable jump in improvement. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I tried to use the Farad in another application and fried it. This drove me to sell the EtherRegen and upgrade to the SR Ethernet Switch UEF about 16 months ago. It was a substantial improvement for me. I’m now at a point where I cannot at all tell the difference between my streaming files and the ones stored locally on the Aurender N30SA.

I just became a Synergistic Research dealer as of last week, btw, so take this input with a grain of salt. But most of my loom and accessories for the last five years have used their products, so while I deal for them, I was already advocating for them before I went into the hifi business.

IMHO, the benefits of high end switch gear is not from the switches but from:

1. Minimizing the total power supply count (avoid using converters which add more)
2. Using high quality wall warts like iFi
3. Keeping the power for those devices out of your conditioned power envelope.
4. Using shielded Ethernet and shielded power cords to minimize transmission/reception of EMI/RFI
5. Using an Ethernet isolator for both noise and surge damage reduction

I'll be dead of laughter before I spend more than $50 on an Ethernet switch itself though.

@blisshifi

I did notice that for some time you have had lots of Synergistic Research on your virtual system. I’m game for upgrading my Ethernet, or maybe adding a new power supply, but just added $13K of gear to my gym without wife’s approval and the dog house is not air conditioned. I’ve got the same purchasing issues with all my buying in that I don’t buy the best, but I go for 80% of the best before the really steep buying curve.

@vonhelmholtz

You are using Sigma Ethernet cable which uses a pair of CMode filters. In theory, you don’t need any additional switches between the wall and your streamer. Sigma is doing its job of filtering noise. As an alternative, you could bring Network Acoustics Muon Pro kit which comes with their excellent Muon Ethernet cable on both ends. The cost is similar to Sigma Ethernet cable but you may hear an improvement with Muon Pro passive filter over the Sigma. As you know, Muon comes with 30 days money back guarantee and Rich at N.A. is a straight shooter. Give it a try! 

Worth a read by Hans on YiuTube  and judge for yourself 

https://youtu.be/BbRF8z8dQFU
https://youtu.be/Io4SDi5hLxs

https://youtu.be/Io4SDi5hLxs

Best $100 I ever spent was 2 Media converters and using fibre between router to rack, then a short shielded cat6 cable to streamer.  All noise from ethernet gear “went away”.

@nevada_matt 

I second that, replaced a 50 ft. run of cat 6 cable, night and day.

You can have your cable company move your incoming  coaxial cable to your router. ,

then you can upgrade your Ethernet cable  close to your sourse.

that is what I would do for the best start to your router, 

the Synergistic Ethernet hub will be a sizable increase ,

but if you you remove the incoming weak link ,,your audio rewards will be that much better.

@audioman58 

That’s what I did! My Xfinity router is fed by good ole Coax cable. And this allowed me to bypass cheap cat5 internal wiring in the house. 

That’s good most modern systems have a Modem-router combo 

this still means 2 respectable Ethernet cables the most important is at the end point 

these cables can get pricy I spent $750,and $1k 

and that is mid grade by Audiophile standards , thsts why the Ethernet quality hub is that much more important , I also a DDC before the dac that cleans up the usb signal , top dacs don’t need it , the T+A 200 dac is on my Xmas gift to myself which is around $7k  has galvanic isolation and a bunch of cutting edge technologie.

it’s a Best Buy dac even vs dacs over $12k it’s that good  ,Thst being said 

the Synergistic Research Ethernet hub will change your mind about streaming .

I use EERO mesh network and a Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System (Ethernet cable and passive filter) from EERO into my Bricasti M3 DAC. Tried a D-Link switch between the EERO and Eno, didn’t like it. 

Thanks for sharing 

I agree 100% with you findings and to go further down the rabbit hole I am saving for the muon pro streaming system 

Thank you for the sharing!

I agree with you, too. Like @martin-andersen .

However, I don't think it's a rabbit hole. I think it depends on your system and your situation.

May be for you, the network is the weakest point. But for someone else, it's NOT. We trying our best to improve the weakness parts, to make the system tonal balance. Spending a lot of money on one thing helps less IMO.

 I personally enjoy the ideas and experience shared in the forum. It helped a lot and some times I just them in another way. And it did make my system better and better, at least for me and some friends came a lot. 

Keep trying. It's a good thing.

Thank you for your Sharing again!

@nevada_matt 

@upshift 

😂😂😂 I need to line up here. Same way. 

🤣🤣🤣 I maybe go a little bit further. I add a $10 linear power PCB to the the PSU side. 

They already made me happy. 

Somebody try this? DX Engineering ISO-PLUS Ethernet RF Filters DXE-ISO-PLUS-2.

I run my Etherregen on a Ferrum Hypsos hybrid power supply, purple SR fuse and an external clock on a long dog audio LPS with an orange fuse. Upgraded power cords an word clock cable.  it's fed by fibre and exits via short AQ vodka directly into my digital streaming amp.

I used to run Ethernet through power line at the start. 

My system sounds totally different now to then.

I think the switch is key because I use the Lyngdorf TDAI3400 built in streamer. If I ran a separate high quality streamer I think the switch would be far less critical. 

Here we go again. A switch will not do anything, at all, ever, for sound quality.

and as for synergistic research, the owner, Ted Denney, has posted online how he makes money of fools buying his products that doesn’t do anything. So there is that.

and, John Swenson of UpTone, Etherregen producer, has been ridiculed for making up terms which he admitted was to fool laymen. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMFQ3YvR3Eo&t=1012s

@audioman58 "a simple switch is very noisy "

What is the nature of the noise?   Can you describe it and it's effect on the data stream?  Are you seeing re-transmits or lost packets? 

I have the DX Engineering filters between every network component and definitely hear a positive difference.

The "rabbit hole" reference above made me think of the Down The Rabbit Hole: Network Tweaks & Streamer DIY blog at TMR which has become my go-to reference for network enhancements. The featured contributor who goes by "Nenon" in other forums describes modding and stacking several Buffalo BS-GS2016 switches with good results. I am cost conscious so now only have two Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-S switches for $30 each stacked before my EtherRegen, short cabling (Supra Cat 8), stand alone modem near the rig, linear power supplies, fiber isolating the wifi as Nenon suggests - I'm one of the few it seems who don't like fiber as much as copper right in the audio path, maybe because of the converter noises people have mentioned.

Anyway, I've been pleased with the results by following the guidance in the article. When most every network tweak can be heard, I have little doubt the various switches mentioned here make a difference. Worth considering optimizing each component and connection along the way as an alternative to a single magic-bullet box. I just swapped out the last crappy ethernet cable near the modem to Supra and that really was a massive improvement. 

Im looking into the LHY SW-8 switch. Can be found here:

https://www.beatechnik.com/product-page/lhy-sw-8

Well reviewed here:

https://youtu.be/NTqmCfq8TP8

Seems to be a great value for its construction and quality.

Using a Fiio LPS for my streamer that cost only (about) $130. This was another marked improvement to the sound quality over a switching supply, even if only by virtue of removing potential noise from my Chang Lightspeed power bar.

Im currently using these filters on either side of my Ethernet cable:

https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-iso-plus-2?seid=dxese1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyLGjBhDKARIsAFRNgW-PpVwkOi05zrZM5ltu18CWQIQgb5N7ix7BWFlbekEl6ujCtdTxU48aAmoIEALw_wcB

They definitely made an improvement!

I feel that we are doing with streaming the same as we did some years ago: to add and add and add tweaks, small devices, big devices, LPS  everywhere.

I think that as happened with DACs this have to be solved and provided by the streamer manufacturer. Probably the state of the art for streaming is not mature what leave us several options: to wait till technology matures, keeping a not very good streamer, to add all these devices and to spend hundreds if not thousands of $, to use this money to buy now a better streamer.

I prefer the first option and save for the future despite of losing the pleasure of testing new and strange devices.

I had my ISP route the cable signal to the coax in my listening room.  Bought my own Modem and separate router.  I run optical from the router to a LHY SW-8 network switch (fiber media converters with 5 Volt LPS’s) and out of the SW-8 to my music server.  The fiber optic link was the biggest bang for the buck for me.  The SW-8 and Pangea Ethernet cables in between improved the sound even further.  

Added benefit:  I ran an Ethernet cable from the SW-8 to my TV.  Large improvement in picture quality when streaming.

I didn’t see anyone addressing yet another source of noise in the internet collection of devices. The internet source itself. Especially if you are getting TV over your cable also, like with Xfinity. I put an inexpensive PS Audio, ’HUMZERO’ on the input line to my modem and that eliminates all but the internet itself by way of creating an airgapped situation for your modem and router. it. Simple problem, simple solution. Now that Xfinity has installed Fiberoptic into my neighborhood even that has been reduced to only a slight concern now.

OMG did I just say something nice about XFINITY? I'm' sorry.

@princeliebe 

wouldn’t the better power supply be more effective on the streamer (clean) side?

I own an Aurender N200 and they claim they have Double Isolated LAN ports that provide two layers of transformer-based isolation to filter noise out of Ethernet connection. How exactly would a Audiophile switch improve on this and would the improvement even be noticeable or worth the money, To me it's similar to these power conditioning devices. Some people notice HUGE improvements, and some notice no improvements. The degree of dirty power everyone has is different and the degree of how well it will improve their audio equipment will depend on the quality of the built in power supplies and the quality of their existing equipment. In my opinion this is a YMMV to the extreme. My Opinion is completely based on what others have said and tried and I have no practical experience with this myself. With this being said I've never tried Audiophile grade switches or any devices claiming to reduce noise on my ethernet, so I continue to read posts like this and POSSIBLY try something someday.

Hello @audioman58 ,  I have done many things to maximize the sound of my streaming.  I have no fibre.

All network cables upgraded to Supra Cat8.  not expensive.  There are other options discussed by @lalitk for upgrading ethernet cables at reasonable cost.

Network Acoustics Muon Pro System.  noticeable improvement.

JCAT M12 Gold Switch with JCAT Optimo 3 power supply.  Big improvement,  I needed a switch anyway, and this one sounds fantastic.  I tried Bonn 8 but it was not impressive.  I first had only the M12, and I easily heard the upgrade.  Then I added the power supply and it was even a bigger difference.  Both are up for sale on US Audiomart from someone.

I formerly had EtherRegen, but the switch and the Muon easily made this obsolete.

Also the addition of the M12, with it's included cables replaced the short Supra cables.  I

Anyone who has said the switch makes no difference has likely not heard the impact of the M12 with good Power Supply in a resolving system.

fredrik222

Here we go again. A switch will not do anything, at all, ever, for sound quality.

Yes, and you repeating your claim over and over won't make it true.

...as for synergistic research, the owner, Ted Denney, has posted online how he makes money of fools buying his products that doesn’t do anything. So there is that.

That's just fiction. Why not just stick to the facts?

Hey Fred,

While I have no experience with SR, I’d be really interested in seeing where Ted Denny said the he makes money off fools buying his products.

Thanks.

Maybe I’m just lucky, but I haven’t had any noise problems with my last two homes. And as some of you may know, I purchased a couple of those TP Eithernet to Optical boxes a ten dollar cable to see if I could hear a difference and I did not.  I’ve been using Spectrum internet to their modem to a Netgear Blackhawk router.

Maybe I’m just lucky.

I never heard 'noise' in my streaming system.  I just heard better sound with the upgraded switch.  Was it 'blacker' or 'quieter'?  Perhaps, but it sure sounded better to my ears.

A lot but not all of the noise people refer to in digital systems is of frequencies beyond the audible range. Both this noise and noise that’s within the audible range has a distorting effect on the purity of the signal, and the audible effects of this distortion is what people can identify by ear, not necessarily the noise itself. Tube hiss, ground loop hum, crackling, buzzing, or rattling are usually a different type of noise than is referred to.

+1 @gladmo !

My experience with improving my digital signal feeding my dCS Vivaldi upsampler and DAC with incremental hardware improvements includes: Etherregen, 4 different CAT  cables, Farad LPS with SR fuse and their best cables, AfterDark mid tier ($1300) 10 Mhz clock and premium cables, a second full Farad LPS set up like the first, installed fiber to the Etherregen so I could go back and forth between copper and glass. I had created a $4000 house of cards that did in fact produce better sounding music out of my Vivaldi digital system. I then replaced the dCS upsampler with a Grimm MU1 streamer/server. I tested each piece of kit with the Grimm and none of it made better music than the cheap builder grade CAT 6 feeding directly into the Grimm. I also had to get to a Sigma V2 to better the standard supplied cheapo power cord.

My point is that as streaming matures companies like Grimm are adding jitter and noise reducing technology inside their boxes. They also engineered their power supplies so you don't have to buy exotic cords to get great sound.  By my own ears I know the additive boxes and cables discussed in this forum do improve many systems, but in the longer run they will be built into more streamers in the future. And yes, I hope there will be tweaks for the next generation of streamers as well.

@cleeds how much ridicule can you take? Even after Qobuz 110% contradicted what you said about Qobuz, you continued. Laughs all around.

but, again, insane claims are made, but nothing to back it up. Post one thing that proves your point that isn’t 100% subjective.

It is sad that some only show up to throw mud. A different tack may be to give some of these items a try. If your system is fairly resolving, you'll be able to hear the improvement, and then you'll also be able to comment on what they do and if it is worth it to you.

It is sad that some only show up to throw mud.

Yup! Freddy here has a thing against Ethernet stuff. Must be some type of childhood trauma caused by… Ethernet.

Back when freddy and I danced, he admitted he had tried some ethernet stuff and couldn’t hear a difference. That says it all right there. Keep this up and he’ll write out all those ethernet protocols again.

All the best,
Nonoise

The desire to ridicule is revealing of the nature of mind.

Have found many network technicians to be of closed mind.

Related to Freddy in their passions and scorn.

I'll probably go with the Networks Acoustics filter, cable, switch solution.  The SR switch and the SR Ethernet cable look interesting also - reports are multiple switches bring incremental improvements.  

fredrik222

@cleeds how much ridicule can you take? Even after Qobuz 110% contradicted what you said about Qobuz, you continued. Laughs all around.

Logicial fallacy: ad hominem.

We’re talking about digital audio and ethernet here. Many users report hearing differences after installing an ethernet  switch or making other network improvements. Let’s please keep it on topic.

Currently I am auditioning a very well built Audiophile Ethernet switch under $600

with very good regulation and a very rare for the rice over controlled clock .

as usual I always max out it’s potential ,a inexpensive Pangea power cord $150

is a noticeable increase in fidelity and a synergistic Purple fuse discounted $160 

to gain a solid 7+% is a bargain in Audiophile terms .I give this unit 250:hours before stating the results .the competition requires a external power supply ,this has a LPS plus regulated power supplies . In the $600 range with Built in $600

Is within the reach of most everyone and the fuse and power cord can be added later and still reap most of the rewards.I just received it 2 days ago. 

@audioman58 : and this exceptional $600 switch is? Brand? Model? Thanks

LHY I will bet. https://www.ebay.com/itm/295232272870?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=295232272870&targetid=1262749491582&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9026816&poi=&campaignid=14859008593&mkgroupid=130497710760&rlsatarget=pla-1262749491582&abcId=9300678&merchantid=6296724&gclid=CjwKCAjw67ajBhAVEiwA2g_jEBPH-xLmsS6zBB8pOxpWRFeuvPfth6xwQOrROL71sT7gLoLHmVHn1BoCI-YQAvD_BwE

I promised the MFG that I would give it 250 + hours or so before stating my thoughts .these oven clocks take a solid 300 hours from my experience at minimum. the upgraded cable, and synergistic purple fuse is my choosing for 

most everyone knows a decent quality power cord makes improvements ,

as well as the many reviews on the Synergistic purple fuse ,which I feel well worth the extra $300 +595 on the switch  . To some 5-7% is not a big enough improvement ,if you have $500+  powercords to put on any Ethernet or LPS will be 

a noticeable improvement vs the 💩 crappy stock power cord.  And I own 

the Sonore ,and uptone audio Ethernet converters ,stay tuned .

Here up is one very good upgrade that many people overlook when streaming 

I bought a 12v up to 8 amp Linear Power Supply for my router from little green computer $295 , most have a modem-router combo this makes a noticeable upgrade ,I added a Pangea power cord and started with a Synergistic blue fuse,

pThe purple fuse through parts connecxion with 20% off sale Va very nice Sonic improvement if you stream it is essential for at bare minimum a 5% improvement 

I also bough5 a upgraded DC cable from LPS to the router, if you just run music from a hard drive ,then not worth it ,but for streaming a must.

I bought a Motorola 8702 which has the latest docsis 3.1 ,many still has 3.0 

3.1 has a 4 core processor 4x faster,bigger buffer and Wifi is even better for Roku on tv.

I would like to mention I had the  with Ethernet to fiber optic converter going to 

a Sonore deluxe yes it cleaned up the signal but bleached the integrity of the music

innuos $$ fantastic Ethernet hub even stated they tried everything Copper still the best if totally isolated ,uptone too all these need a respectable separate LPS to make them sound good which is over $1k+ a decent powercord, and remove the junk steel zinc Buzz fuse ,which I did all the above the Synergistic purple parts connecxion 20% off sale $160 vs $200 makes a very good upgrade with a inexpensive Pangea power cord  which together at least a 5-7% improvement