Curiosity got the better of me recently and I tried a pretty cheap tweak where I used two Fiber Optic converters between the eero access point and my Lumin U1 Mini streamer. Converted from copper Ethernet to fiber optic then back to copper and then into streamer using my Supra Cat8.
I was pleasantly surprised with the improvements this change had brought into my system and now I am wondering if I can do better. One other aspect of the current configuration that I don’t like is the clutter - each unit comes with it’s own power supply and add to that a fiber optic cable. I already have a spider web of wires and am not looking to add to that.
Objective is to have as much noise, RFI and EMI removed before it reaches the streamer.
Seeking opinions on the following units from those who had tried them in their systems:
English Electric Network Switch 8 (Silent Angel is pretty much the same thing)
i use the etherregen, along with, and stand alone, without a fiber optic clean-up module - they are both very important to having a pure feed from network into streamer/renderer
the ether regen is very similar to the n-a eno - in fact the maker of the regen tells customers if they have an eno they don’t need a regen, they do the same thing
the silent angel network switch is different
look up hans beekhuysen on youtube, he has informative videos there on all three, you will be well versed in these after viewing them
In addition to answers you receive here, you may want to run a search for your topics as you will find additional discussions in threads such as this one and this one.
Back to your questions, I use fiber optic cable as you described but my run is 45 feet from my router to my main system. I use LPS at both ends in place of the small wall warts that come with the converters. After conversion, a short CAT 8 Ethernet cable run from the fiber converter to:
Bonn Silent Angel N8 switch (made by the same people who make the English Electric Network Switch 8), then short Ethernet cable to
GigaFOILv4-INLINE Ethernet Filter (with LPS), then Network Acoustics Streaming Cable to
Network Acoustics ENO filter, then the captive streaming cable to
music server
The set-up works fine and sounds great but I would caution that to me, no one of these things made what I would consider a significant difference in sound quality, especially to the transitional levels sometimes posted about in these forums. Whether that is my components, my overall system and room, or my hearing, I hear nothing more than subtle differences with these tweaks/digital cables.
I am about one week into the set up you are using. Soon I will plug the ethernet cable from router to streamer for a sonic comparison. I did not hear a night and day difference with the ethernet converter boxes and fiber optic cable. However, it’s a very inexpensive experiment
cat8->DXE filter->Lhyaudio ocxo switch->etherregen on Antelope audio 10m clock->DXE filter->Emo EN70HD->InnuOs Zenith Mk3->USb->Holo Audio Titanis->Intona Isolator 2.0 Industrial->Antelope Audio Zodiac Platinum on 10m clock. The clock, USB connection and Dac are all powered by Sean Jacobs DC3/4 Lps, the Etherregen by Zerozone 2020 LPS.
Admittedly this is a ridiculous amount of boxes, yet: it took me 3 years to not only figure out the right components but also the sequence.
My principal lessons are as follows: avoid any noise from EMI/RFI/Ground level through galvanic isolation, use shielded cables on digital connections and get the best clock you can afford to control the DAC, ethernet and USB connections. Use digital filters on any clock or ethernet connections. I have not played with optical but worked hard in finding good ethernet and USB cables (0nto cat8 and Intona Reference USB)
@tuberistmake sure you use your best Ethernet cable into the streamer. I have already done the comparison you’re about to do.
If possible plug the converters into power conditioner. Difference is not night and day but significant enough at least in my system to keep this set up. I tested this with several songs and consistently heard more natural tone, better imaging and soundstage than what I get with eero direct into Lumin. Depends on your streamer, system, room, etc. YMMV.
These cheap fiber optic modules create a bunch of noise on their end , try’s UptoneAudio etherregen at both end with a fiber optic much cleaner blacker back ground fiber optic electrically don’t bring noise But if the signal is jittered full of noise to start it delivered a flawed signal to start ,I compared these head to head ,
land in my system fiber sounds a bit thinner , the key is a great hum Sonore is the best but $$ , 2 uptone Audio Ether regen are a good 2 nd choice .
You can try putting a liner supply on the FMC on the clean end. That will redice the noise a bit.
Another good device is the Sonore opticalModule. You need the opticalModule and the Linear supply for it so two boxes but the upgrade in sound is well worth it.
Or you could get a Lumin X1. It has fiber networking built in!
Basically says you have ground noise and should be using isolators and a dedicated low noise power supply on the clean side that’s kind of Kluge the way you’ve done it but it’ll Help I guess
I can only post extensive information so many times but I have explained basically where some of this comes from and what I have found works to eliminate it. you can search and find a lot of it but fundamentally you need to terminate the digital signal, provide isolation, and clean power. this is not about the digital signal this is about blocking power supply and ground noise
For Ethernet cable I’m using Supra Cat8 which was a really nice upgrade from a generic cat 5.
My Lumin streamer and Benchmark DAC3 HGC are connected using Audience AU24se+ USB cable (upgraded by Audience to StudioOne). I agree I can do better than Supra Cat8 but the USB cable I’m using is very good.
The power supply induced noise with the fiber optic converters makes sense and is a candidate to be eliminated. However even despite that noise the converters brought a nice improvement.
That’s why I think the Network Acoustics Eno passive filter makes sense and that’s what I’m going to try. Possibly with a decent network switch between it and the EERO.
Trying to get the streaming as close to physical media as possible is a challenge but there’s no way around it, it has to be done to get the most out of streaming that much is clear now.
Ethernet isolators designed for medical use are just to stop DC currents flowing from one device to another, for safety reasons. They have no components inside to filter out RFI or other high frequency electrical noise. They consist of an input RJ45 socket with transformer coupling (the same device as in an Ethernet switch) which is then directly wired to an output RJ45 socket.
This is the same with the DXE device. There’s no components in there to remove electrical noise.
I was very sceptical about all these pre-streamer connections until my friend bought me a cheap £15 Netgear switch. Guess what ... it made a difference. I have since bought the English Electric 8 switch and this made a bigger difference. Then I added Sablon Audio (£325) Etherlnet cable between EE8 and Streamer. Again a slight improvement. Research tells me that multiple switches can help but expensive cable up to the switch isn't necessary.
So, router via chord cable to net gear via 10m cheap cable to EE8 via Sablon to streamer.
@audphile1I'll mention this for umpteenth time, when using usb dac,optimization is absolute key!. Vast majority of servers have rather poor usb rendering, reason for all these usb filters, renderers, other thingies. Right off, I'd say this is your weakest link, even beyond needing lps for the FMC's.
Very difficult to get beyond clutter when optimizing streaming networks. The only means to get beyond this is with the very top tier servers with optimized INTERNAL usb, network ports, or whatever output port one prefers, these also have built in top tier lps so no need for external lps. Another means to simplified system is slightly lesser server with top tier streamer/dac, server still must provide top tier network out port to retain simplicity. With all the streamer functions built into dac, one can bypass all the usb or any other preferred port issues. Get rid of all port issues, half the battle of clutter has been taken care of, only ethernet optimization remains.
I've got an Etherregen it feeds my lyngdorf TDAI3400 amp / streamer and it's fed by SFP from a Cisco2960. makes a significant uptick over just going straight into the AMP from a router.
I also have a Chinese 10mhz clock on the Etherregen and both have shielded power cables, LPS and everything 'floats' on black ravioli pads. All makes a difference.
sadly getting certain parts for the Etherregen means it may no longer be produced.
the passive network acoustics ENO filters get a lot of love too.
The passive ENO filter from Network Acoustics is very effective in reducing noise and for clutter free application. All other solutions while maybe effective adds substantial clutter. As @sns pointed out, streaming DAC is one way to avoid multiple connection points thus limiting exposure to potential noise entering connecting devices in your signal chain. In any case, Ethernet optimization is now a necessary evil if you’re interested in exploring full potential of streaming.
I quickly read up on the Bonn N8 etherswitch and it's jitter improvements. I am scratching my head a bit, most streamers have a buffer that is at least several hundred milliseconds , if not seconds or 10's of seconds.. When the ethernet frame hits the streamer, the music payload is extracted and placed in this buffer, where it sits around a bit. How exactly does reducing jitter from 700 to 400ps within the confines of a etherswitch provide a sonic improvement?
Can you really hear the difference if doing a blind test? I would think having people sit down and listen by not telling them they are listening to with and without would be the true test. Kind of like The Emperors New Cloths Syndrome. It would probably cost $4,000 to buy two power conditioners in my system to find out. What would I hear that is significantly better?
Much like Amirm, I have over 30 years networking experience. I installed my 1st Ethernet in 1987 , "thicknet" complete with vampire taps. The last 10 years or so I have focused on circuit emulation over packet based networks , primarily for the Power generation and distribution folks. Jitter & latency reduction does play a big role in certain circuit types such as teleprotection. But latency is not a factor in music streaming, and network jitter cannot be a factor , as the I mentioned above , the ethernet frames are long gone by the time the data content is buffered, uncompressed and sent to the DAC.. The DAC clock , has nothing to do with the ethernet network, and vice versa. Unless of course the streamer is doing some type clock recovery via synchronous ethernet , or RFC 1588. And I highly doubt that. Of course this does not even take into account that some streamers are TCP based , and packets are arriving in clumps and are acknowledged. But, if you like the idea, or feel you hear a $600 difference, who am I to argue.
@larry5729 Let’s not derail this conversation please as I feel it is beneficial for a lot of members of this community who stream and have systems/rooms/ears to not need a blind test to hear the difference. Also, power conditioners are not being discussed here.
@scottfraserfrom EE standpoint a lot of things in high end audio will not make sense to you. In this particular example I’m not qualified to provide any scientific answers or explanation, I’d be just speculating and thinking out loud.
I would encourage you do your research and do your own testing in your system to hear if there was any improvement and whether or not it’s worth the investment.
For me in my system the addition of fibre optic converters gave me a glimpse into what’s possible with the difference (positive) made to the overall sonic presentation.
I’d like to stay on topic guys, if we can please. I’m seeking opinions from people who had incorporated changes in their systems to overcome some of these challenges with streaming.
makes sense with the streaming DAC. Not excluding the possibility that I will give it try at some point. I’m just hearing for the first time now what my system is capable of and apparently I haven’t reached the ceiling yet.
@audphile1, I’m a huge fan of the ENO Streaming System Ag because it is a passive filter and it does exactly what Rob Osborne and Rich Trussell at Network Acoustics said it would do. I have one network switch between my router and the ENO, and I’m about to add another because as you mentioned two switches are better than one.
When I was putting together my streaming system Rob answered all of my emails and gave me practical solutions for improving the SQ of my listening chain without me having to empty my bank account.
I’m on the Uptone Audio email list for the new EtherREGEN whenever it comes out (no date, parts supply shortages).
I will be giving Eno a try hopefully in the next few weeks (placed an order). I also ordered a Network switch with upgraded power supply per Rob’s (Network Acoustics) recommendation to put between EERO and Eno. I’ll see if the fibre optic converters are still needed when all this is in place and broken in.
@audphile1, that sounds like you’re on the right path now. The switches that Rob suggested I use are pretty moderately priced as are the iFi xPower SMP supply units.
@audioman58+1 on the Sonore products you mentioned and I use them and the results have been outstanding and a true difference maker in SQ
For me personally, the pinnacle of any upgrade, allows me to hear the same tried and true music I've been listening to year after year, format after format, 100s of times over and the playback is evolved to the best version of said music I've heard on my specific system in my specific room. It's not like hearing the song for the first time but it does inspire me to get reacquainted with my entire music library, because I know I stand the chance to hear the new best version of each song
Adding the Sonore products to my streaming front end provided that level of SQ improvement on my system
I too like the Sonore products. If going optical route with usb dac, Sonore OpticalRendu is sublime. Powered by Uptone JS-2 easily one the best network and usb rendering upgrades I've made.
Whether one chooses to go optical or ethernet, only optimization allows one to hear full potential of either. Some amount of clutter is necessary with streaming, plenty of positive experiences with add on devices attest to that.
I've owned the ER w/pls & the ENOag. Both provide slight but noticeable improvement to the SQ. Slightly more detail in top end, more natural & relaxed I guess you might say. I then purchased the SR UEF switch which bested both ER & ENO all by itself! Adding ER & ENO to the switch configuration provided a very slight improvement to my setup. Then I noticed the MUON ag filter pop up on the NA website so I decided to give that a try after switch & before Integrated/DAC. Slightly more relaxed without sacrificing detail. Have not tried MUON straight from router to the amp. Kept it in my chain. Waiting on Sonore Optical Module kit so I can compare.
@audphile1 I have been doing my own testing throughout the years. I started streaming music in the early 2000's and currently have approx. 7500 digital albums stored on a TrueNAS Server. I have several separate systems , with hardware from Bryston, PMC, PSB, Klipsch , Outlaw and Anthem. I own many different DAC's including DAC's from Bryston , Benchmark , HififBerry and most recently Focusrite. Each system has it's unique traits, pro's and cons, but from my testing, the delivery of the music content to the DAC has not yielded any distinct musical signature. But as they say" "your results may differ". Have a good weekend.
Through incremental purchases and listening for improvement, I have evolved to feeding an Etherregen via fiber from my main entrance point of Google Fiber. I have an Afterdark 10Mhz clock attached to the Etherregen. I have two Farad LPS feeding the clock and the Etherregen. All AC and DC cables are upgraded Farad cables. My Gimm MU1 doesn't seem to care much about the ethernet cable that runs from the Etherrgen to it, so I'm running a Viablue, although I tried a Sablon 2020. All of this equipment generates a very nice sound. There are a lot of resources tied up in my configuration. I assume that a vendor (Maybe SR has done this) will put all this into one box as a lower price in the future.
I hate to be a spoiler here. I use a Netgear AC 1200 (works on AC wire from node to node from the Comcast router.)Then I really wreck it using a netgear $35 1GB switch distributing to a Bluesound node 2i. I further wreck The system connecting my Innuos mini mk III to that cheapo switch which both go to a primaluna inegrated with Cheapo $65 RCA connector cables. Using a tripplight isolation regulator, RF filter getting its power from a furman RFI power strip. . My system sounds so terrible I cannot imagine trading it up or changing a thing! Voices are velvet, strings vibrate, bass shakes the place with majesty. Silent between notes, no hiss. I guess I did this all wrong! Eeeekkkk. It is interesting see how to try to Justify an upgrade of this magnitude for Ethernet with sound like I experience now.
The Network Acoustics Eno Streaming System is here! Running it in. I also have installed the D-Link DGS-105 powered by iFi 5v Silent Power SMPS.
I ran few tests already configured as follows:
1. eero->switch->Lumin U1 Mini
2. eero->switch->-Eno-> Lumin
3. eero->Eno->Lumin
4. eero->Lumin
I can hear the difference between the above set ups but I’ll reserve my thoughts for now until I have around 150-200hrs on the Eno Streaming System to eliminate break in as a factor. For those who care, I’ll post the updates when I feel the Eno had settled.
Bang for buck you really must try a legit SFP+ switch. There is a topic on Audiophile style that gets into why. I use Mikrotik CRS 305 which I configured as my router
Also, some streamers with wifi are extremely good at reducing noise from ethernet, that is far superior to wired ethernet.
Be careful with shielded cables, UTP may be better in some locations in your network.
In that time I have bought: a Dac, streamer, two modded switches, three fuses, three LPS, Add Powr products, Akiko Audio products, DC cables for LPS, USB/SPIDF converter with clock, Black Ravioli Big Pads, 2 x Lan isolators, recapped my amp, and had ethernet installed replacing wifi.
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