I am using a sub for the very first time and lots of usefull info here. I run Vandersteen 5a and Von Schweikert VR4 HSC in my main system, both have great bass. I got a chance to get a pair of CLSII panels and a Depth i sub, both are a first for me. Integrating the sub has been a slow process of experimentation. This may sound like a dumb question but since the sub has three drivers firing in different directions does this create the effect of multiple subs ?
Eh hem!...Subwoofers... What do ya know?
Subwoofers are a thing. A thing to love. A thing to avoid. A misunderstood thing.
What are your opinions on subwoofers? What did you learn and how did you learn it?
What are your opinions on subwoofers? What did you learn and how did you learn it?
125 responses Add your response
it puzzles me why individuals buy speakers with poor bass response Let’s convert the word "poor" and say "deep." The smaller the speaker, the less likely you are to run into room mode problems, not to mention matching the decor (yes, this is important) and finding the ideal place for them. Pretend physical size is not an issue. Say you have a 6" cube speaker that is flat 16Hz to 30kHz in a test chamber, with infinite dynamic range. That could be a terrible sounding speaker in a lot of rooms. Speakers that measure anechoically to a -3dB point at around 40-60 Hz may end up being a lot better balanced in a room. So the purist, who eschews equalization, if having to choose the best balanced speakers in his room, may end up with a speaker with limited bass. I’m going to argue, again, that a lot of issues people attribute to subwoofers and ported speakers have less to do with speed and distortion and a lot more to do with how many dragons they wake in the depths. If money is no object, build an acoustically ideal listening room with giant speakers. If you don’t really care about boutique DAC’s and preamps, then a pre or integrated with DSP room correction is going to be your drug of choice. In the middle of this are a variety of interesting opportunities:
So, to answer the question, it makes perfect sense to me why audiophiles would choose speakers with limited bass response. Getting deep high output bass is complicated, and expensive, and for a lot of music lovers not in their field of expertise. A high quality two way is often their sweet spot. |
So I took the mains off their stands and put them on top of some weights. They are about 1 foot off the ground now. Sound is warmer but still not getting that low bass “bump”. If I stand up and put my head right above my head sitting there it is. what I can’t get my head around is what the couch is doing to make this happen. I pushed the couch out of the way and there it is. Seems like it should be the other way around. The couch is against a flimsy metal frame table that’s 12” deep which then is sandwiched against the rear wall. Could that cavity somehow be adding to things? Edit; moved the now lower stand speakers back 8” or so and now im gettijg better bass. The imaging isn’t as good so that sucks. My speakers are -6db at 50hz but are really -6 for everything below 110hz and front ported. Now I’m more curious about a 40hz rear ported speaker would do. Hmmmm. i now better understand the subwoofer’s role in things. Being able to bring my mains out 25” from the back wall (rear of speaker) and have the sub make up the bass I lose allowing the imaging that comes with being out into the room is cool. |
@millercarbon 4 subs is a no go for me. I live in an apartment after all. I did try to move the sub next to the couch and I feel like I have it so it integrates well and isn't apparent thats its next to the sitting position. All in all it remedies most of the problem at the sitting position. I would really rather NOT have subs at all so I don't know. I haven't had time to sub crawl AND I'm also going to play with the height of the mains. These came with 24" tall stands but have a 3"+ front port that puts the tweeters way over my ears (bass is better standing also). I'm going to try putting them on 18" tall solid objects to see what happens. |
Subjectivity and personal taste aside, clearly there are those who simply haven't experienced the advancements of current Extra Low Frequency implementation and/or software design. Even if your speakers are equipped with built in self powered subwoofers, in all likelihood those subs are not optimally placed within their environment to take full advantage of their integrational and presentation potential. Which is why their manufactures often demonstrate them in conjunction with outboard subwoofers. Wilson, Magico, Focal, etc. all produce subwoofers. Its not the novelty of loud bass. Its advanced adjustability of multiple ELF parameters and thier programable control. |
The sound is much less localized in my large room. Using just my mains when I’m alone is fine . You can sense the depth of bass all the way down its roll off (below 30hz ) but large room = more people . More people needs more bass . The subtly of the deep bass is no longer existent over people talking after 3-4 drinks. And you want the ability to flex your audio muscles in this case. You can be an audio snob when youre alone or else people will quit coming over. Most people dont care or have a clue to what their listening to . I’ve explained my system to out of town family and they looked at me like i was effed in the head. Anyways , Read why the swarm got a golden ear award then shut off the computer . |
@davekayc I'm fighting a bass null at the sitting position so I wondered about, having the mains spread further apart but toed in at a steeper angle to limit low frequency waves going straight at the wall and being reflected back. Basically having the very toed on speakers sending low frequency waves at the rear wall at a steep angle vs nearly head on to negate the null. Right. Same here. Same everywhere. Exact same situation in my room. The solution is, first move the main pair and seating position around listening for smooth but not necessarily deep bass. Just try and avoid the worst spot, basically. The bass we will fix later. Then at this point get very precise in tweaking placement for imaging. It is essential at this step to get the speakers exactly equidistant and toed in perfectly symmetrically. Finally, add four subs, one on each wall, wherever they can go but preferably no two the same distance from a corner. What you will find, any single sub or speaker does exactly what you heard- lumpy uneven bass. Moving around only moves the lumps around. Adding more however creates lots of lumps that all together average out to really smooth. The wavelengths are so long and we hear bass so much differently that it hardly matters where they are, but it does matter a lot how many there are. So use more and the problem solves itself. |
Regardless of your main speaker capability in the bass, there will be instances where you will need bass re-enforcement in the room. This is going to be dependent on the room size and acoustics. The alternative is also true ( but far less often). For example, I know of a fellow a'phile who uses large Wilson Alex 2 speakers in a relatively small room. The Alex 2's have large bass drivers and can drop down into the lower 20Hz range. This fellow tried to integrate subs into his room, with little success. The reason...simple! Because the main speakers were large enough to fill his room with accurate ( this is the key point here) bass! In this particular case, it was obvious ( well to most experienced a'philes who listened to this system) that adding additional bass that essentially overloaded the room was actually undesirable! OTOH, in most other cases with speakers that can go into the low to mid 20Hz's with some ease, adding a subwoofer of commensurate quality ( Yes, that is also a very very important factor) will allow for a more defined stage and more accurate ambience retrieval. I recently attended a demo of the new ( and superb) YG subwoofer. In the VERY large room that this was demoed, it was quite obvious that the subwoofer was a major addition to the overall SQ. The main speakers were well equipped to drop down to 25-30Hz...YG Sonja's...but add the subwoofer and the whole became a lot more than the parts. Something that is quite obvious once you experience it...and perhaps less so if you are just theorizing! |
Bah ! Subwoofers ! You kids and your rock and roll music . My mains have all the bass response I’m sure some would like to have . But i also want six subs . And since i do what i want .. seriously though i think people do not use them properly to get a hifi effect out of them . I guarantee the majority could turn them down a notch to achieve proper reinforcement. Turn it down to the point where you actually have to feel the woofer to see its on . Then leave it there chances are if its in the right location as explained ten times on here it will sound perfect . |
Subwoofers are a poor attempt in 2 channel listening. If your speakers do not put out a decent bass response then it is what it is. Subwoofer integration should be left for Home Theatre enthusiasts looking for bombs going off in their listening spaces. I have tried sub integration and as a Bass player it does no justice. Buy a speaker that produces a proper bass responce there are enough out there. |
gochurchgo, here are some starting point guidlines for a speaker placement and a youtube for the Crawl Test subwoofer placement. Since not every room has four corners, mapping out your rooms bass modes (where bass is louder) can be very usefull. http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3oLLMgS-M Not every speaker system was designed to be toed in. |
toe in helps keep reflections off the side walls . Improves clairity and stage. Dont toe in so far that they aim in front of you . Most you want is at you . my mains i set up with a building lazer. Centered , same angle and 40” from tweeter to rear wall . My focus point 20ft behind me . I dont have side reflection because my side walls are also 20ft away . My small living room is normal and my speakers aim directly at me. No sub required. |
Turn the crossover all the way down . To 50 or 63 depending what you have. Then try as i suggested which i learned from duke and tim. Put the sub in your chair. Now listen all over your room . You may have to crawl on the floor to find the hot spot . I used a phone app with the spectrum on it. And listen . There are spots all over in your room and they may not be where you think. Now put you sub at one of these spots preferrably the loudest spot . And turn your sub down. It will be far more efficient now. |
@davekayc I'm fighting a bass null at the sitting position so I wondered about, having the mains spread further apart but toed in at a steeper angle to limit low frequency waves going straight at the wall and being reflected back. Basically having the very toed on speakers sending low frequency waves at the rear wall at a steep angle vs nearly head on to negate the null. Unless I move at least 38% of the way into the room (better at 50%) I sit in a mid bass null. I always thought the speakers were bass shy but the sub I've been messing with has the same issue so its clearly the room and not speakers. If I mive 3ft to the right of the couch/sitting position which puts me in front of the hallway entrance the sub is delivering THUNDER. Move back to the sitting position and its a little warmer at best. |
Theres no magic to placing your mains . Rule of thumb is placing at eye height and the distance between them is how far either is from your head . 60 degree triangle . I’m not quite sure what you are asking but the soundstage is the biggest part . Make sure the set up is in the center of a wall . Its all about YOUR ears . Everyones ears are different. All anyone can recommend is better math. Other wise ear buds wouldnt have adapters for different shape ears. Poor symmetry makes premium equipment sound midfi . We were only talking about subs and the various methods of use. |
No, its the physical position of the sub that dictates where the standing waves end up . Put the sub on your listening chair , now go around the room and find where the bass is loudest. Now put your sub there. The end. Leave your mains off during this. Makes it easier. And less violently loud while you figure it out. |
@erik_squires, In my own situation, I really really don’t want to be moving a sub 6" 12 times to compare and measure. I have about 2 locations where this 100lb beast can go, and I’m going to put it there and EQ it and call it done. :) I love my 2 PSA 1801 subs but am really tired of moving the equivalent of 2 fully stocked refrigerators every time I want to try different placements for ’sound checks’ when I have to do the ’sub crawl’. And for some reason, I’ve tired of having to look at those beasts all the time. Not to mention sub placement is very limited - and I’ve made my mind up to upgrade/downgrade to 4 of the smallest active/powered PSA subs for - better sound and much more choices of placement. And PSA will, take PSA trade ins/upgrades and or downgrades. @millercarbon Morel 10", which are a nominal 8 ohms each. With four subs and two amps you can get a total 4, 8 or 16 ohms simply by changing the way they are connected to the amp(s). Will a Y cable with 1 male/2 female RCA jacks in both the left and right sub outs (pre outs) give me 16 ohms? I assume probably not cause it sounds to simple and easy to do! Maybe 8 ohms might work for me? Anyway thanks for posting, as last time I was privy to your knowledge on this very issue it got a little ’Eh hem!’ heated but your sharing of this information to me - is the reason for the season... And I did take your advice and read the papers by Geddes. By the way I’m in metro Atlanta, you still in the ATL? |
@luisma31 -- apologies in advance as you were addressing someone else, I understand the bass augmentation can be achieved easily with the distributed array, there is such a thing as too much bass, in my array (4x10 inches not morels) I have to tune down the amps to 50 percent and sometimes plug one or two ports, I also understand that if you add more 5 6 even 8 small enclosures which are easy to hide the effect increases even more. I had 2 powered subs with dual 18 inch drivers before and it didn’t sound natural (to me), also from the amps you can change phase for two subs etc. which blends the bass even more. No apologies needed, and I like a difference of opinion - oftentimes it makes a conversation more interesting. To "diagnose" a difference of opinion though and where it really rests some effort must be made as to the context and more precise nature of each of our viewpoints; sometimes what we initially deem ’different opinions’ is muddled by factors like lack of context and insufficient information rather than actually being in disagreement on a subject - were we to have a more "level ground" of understanding (which, for obvious reasons, we usually don’t have from the get-go). That being said there certainly are preferences, and I find them inspiring as it can lead myself to change or modify a direction, or simply appreciate and ponder other choices (just as well as it can reassure my own direction). "Too much bass" as you write to me is simply about level adjustment rather than the capacity at hand. Practically I don’t find one can have an over-abundancy of bass capacity (as is similarly the case with dynamics), for as they say: headroom is your friend, so embrace all there is and even wish for more (to a certain point at least, but usually more than many would deem necessary). So long the enclosures themselves do not obstruct the acoustics too severely I’d have no problem adding their size or numbers as space and/or spouse permits. Let me be clear that I only have few reservations with the multiple sub approach, the only real one being the potential lack of symmetrical placement of the subs in relation to the mains. This is controversial, it seems - i.e. mono vs. stereo bass and the supposed lack of directionality in the lower frequencies. To my sensory abilities spatiality in particular is aided more effectively via symmetrically placed subs (usually a pair, coupled in stereo) relative to and in close conjunction to the mains, and while we may not be able to distinctly assess, via our ears, where bass is coming from (depending on the chosen lower cut-off), I’d wager we can feel it via our bodies. On whether actual stereo information is available in the source material (digital), also a controversial matter, it is hardly debunked from testing a few hundred titles (a very obvious case of the problem of induction - if one were to side with named, limited testing). On your less than favorable experience with the twin dual 18" subs, I find it hard to comment other than asking for more specifics (context) and what in particular you found less satisfying about their sound. A friend of mine is using a pair of cinema subs fitted with twin 18" drivers as well to augment his mains, and while I find they’re very capable, tuneful and rather successfully integrated, I’ve never warmed to them fully. My main gripe mainly has to do with some acoustic challenges here (generated by the floor), but also the fact that they’re direct radiators. I favor bass cabs with hidden drivers, preferably loaded via horns, but that’s another subject entirely. Implementation is paramount. I’m using a Xilica digital cross-over that provides ample adjustment possibilities, while tentatively using DRC Designer for digital correction in both amplitude and time domain from the outset of a measured performance, choosing a target curve, specific filter types used, etc. |
How do we feel about the statements and claims made here? https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/10-nonsense-myths |
@phusis apologies in advance as you were addressing someone else, I understand the bass augmentation can be achieved easily with the distributed array, there is such a thing as too much bass, in my array (4x10 inches not morels) I have to tune down the amps to 50 percent and sometimes plug one or two ports, I also understand that if you add more 5 6 even 8 small enclosures which are easy to hide the effect increases even more. I had 2 powered subs with dual 18 inch drivers before and it didn't sound natural (to me), also from the amps you can change phase for two subs etc. which blends the bass even more. I'm not trying to be argumentative with you but I respectfully differ from your opinion Luis |
... @millercarbon -- Something to consider: if the 10" Morel units of yours are anything to go by two "big expensive drivers" from the pro sector, like 21" B&C’s, in a given enclosure design (like the "Skram") would be no more expensive or probably even cheaper than four Morel’s. Add in the need for two extra amp channels for the quad-approach while factoring in that a pair of 21" drivers are ~10dB’s more sensitive and sports more than twice the radiation area. "Overriding the need" as you point out in this context dismisses the importance of headroom, although to some a quad array of 10" subs would seem more than enough (and it well may be in a specific context). And yet, a dual 21" set-up like the one suggested would excite more air (even with less cone movement) and have lower distortion at a given SPL, all of which translates into an even more relaxed and effortless presentation of the lower octaves. You’d miss out on the advantage of going quads in regards to response smoothness sans digital correction, but a great result is still attainable via duals without excessive use of DSP and maintaining a fairly even coverage for more than one listener. You could even go with smaller and (all things being equal) cheaper drivers, like a 15" driver in a horn variant and end up with a bigger effective air radiation area, force multiplied by the horn, than a 21" direct radiating driver (the 21" in the "Skram" isn’t DR, I might add, but rather hidden inside the cab and loaded on both sides of the cone), in providing a better coupling of the cone to the air and a different (to my ears ’better’) bass presentation (my preferred choice of dual-sub approach, actually). The downside: a need for a bigger cab and thereby wood. A 4-sub approach with, say, 10" drivers like you propose in all likelihood will find more wide-spread use in hifi-systems than what I’m advocating, and they would have excellent augmentation in the bottom octaves. That being said and to reiterate: there are other excellent sub-solutions, and adhering to physics I’d say my dual-sub propositions will fit the bill quite nicely as something that can’t be overridden as an essential in bass augmentation, but that are nonetheless typically overlooked. |
I sold my active subs and got Duke's (audio kinesis) swarm with 4 subs and 2 amps, you locate the subs 2 in the front of the room the other 2 wherever just not together, these are very small units (wife loves to put things on top which are constantly falling as you could imagine), I just don't care about improving bass anymore it is so perfect, I will never use anything different than a distributed array ever again.@millercarbon I have mine on 8 ohms but I will be trying the 16 ohm series config, not sure with my listener skills I could hear it but willing to try, thanks for the tip |
Do you have any experience using the Crawl Test for anybody locating less than four subwoofers? This is the one where you put a sub in the listening spot and walk or crawl around looking for where the bass is best, and that's where you put the first sub. So there's your answer. Because the first step is simply repeated again and again until you run out of subs. I did try this and unsurprisingly all the best bass was in the corners. Which anything else would have been a surprise. Bass is always stronger near the walls than out in the middle of the room. No wonder when Tim did this he wound up with speakers in the corners. But that's not hardly even the point. The real point is Tim has great, awesome, impressive, bass that continues to please after many years, and with both movies and music. He does move his chair for music but that only goes further to emphasize the point that having a DBA means having great smooth bass that is not fussy when it comes to speaker or listening locations. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. How would you determine crossover frequency and gain with less than four subwoofers? Same as always- by listening! Oh, you can use meters too. But there's a problem with that. A really big problem. One that far as I'm concerned kills the whole idea of EQ. That being, meters measure sound all nice and flat and without regard to volume. But people don't hear like that. Really low frequencies we don't even hear at all until they get fairly loud. That's why they made the Loudness switch! Don't believe me? Look up Fletcher Munson Loudness Curves. Got it? All those lines on the left pointed up and converging? What this says is, if you set your bass to measure flat, you will indeed be able to get it to measure flat, but you will NOT be able to get it to SOUND flat except at one volume level. Then even if you get it to sound flat, it will only ever sound really flat at that one volume level. Turn it up, it will sound like more bass. Turn it down it will sound like less. The only real solution is to listen. Listen a long time, and to a lot of music. Listen at or close to whatever volume level you use when you really want it to sound good. Tweak tiny amounts until you're happy. You'll wind up with a little more bass at higher volume, a little less at lower, but there's quite a range recording to recording anyway. Doing it this way takes a little longer and if you're one of those needs validation types sorry, but its the best we got. |
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How would you determine crossover frequency and gain with less than four subwoofers?" Buying a sound meter is a good idea, sub woofer(s) or not. You can determine when the bass starts to drop off from your mains, IN YOUR ROOM (not factory data sheet, that is 'roomless'.) Use meter to find the best trouble free location of your mains first, then, get the answer when they start to lose bass, use a bit below that as a starting point for the sub crossover, then use your ears. It's like an old carbureator, you have to adjust two factors (air/fuel mixture and idle speed) with each other, not separately. |
Subs for music vs Subs for HT. Big difference in what you trying to accomplish sound wise, IMHO. I use a large woofer that is not that accurate for HT set up...and two REL T5i's for my big rig. The T5i's are very fast ( therefore they do NOT interfere with my main speakers..which is the goal) and are invisible SQ wise in the blend. What two subs do is exactly what REL states they do, which is to smooth out the response in your room. Unfortunately, setting up two subs is IME a ton more time consuming than setting up just one....but worth it in the long run. |
millercarbon2,139 posts12-06-2019 9:01pmAlmost everything people "know" about bass is wrong.Do you have any experience using the Crawl Test for anybody locating less than four subwoofers? I could go on and on. Which I tend to do, both because this is so important as well as its really hard to understand. Took me a few weeks of research to really be sure myself.Thanks for sharing your knowledge. How would you determine crossover frequency and gain with less than four subwoofers? |
My main system is Apogee Duetta Sigs. They don't go down much below 40-50 Hz, so I added a Paradigm 15 Ref Servo sub - sounded good. Then I added a 2nd 15 Ref Servo sub and it sound great!. I have them wired in stereo and positioned as if they were part of the Apogees - in other words - right next to them. Works for me. |
I think everyone is on the right track relating to their own likes . I agree having lots of power to mains is important. My mains are 3 way bi amped . 150w solid state to the 15” woofer and 100wch tube to the horns, tweets. Asking the woofers to reach down to the basement takes away from their clarity . Subs reinforce those very low notes and in this way gives an omnipresent feel to the sound . With my remote on my c46 preamp i can cut the outputs i used to engage the subs . Sound is still beautiful but having that ability from your chair to turn them on and off sure trains you to set them modestly as to only give the full picture nothing more. Think of the 20th century fox orchestra intro where the last sound is made by a very large drum kind of a whomp powerful yet subtle . Can you hear a sub? Or the room that drum was recorded. The silence between notes is the most beautiful sound. |
It really is easy, go big or go home! Just get a Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer and call it good. Kidding. Lot's and lot's of good info here. In the end though, one way or another, a compromise must be met. Budget constraints, testing capability, room realities etc. Not all can have the perfect acoustic room. Like Eric mentioned, get what you can, dial it in to what sounds good to your ears and call it good. OR, go all in, have the room tested, do all the treatment, demo locations/subs and take that route. I recently eliminated my sub for my two channel setup. My room constraints wound up creating more problems than I could/want to try to "fix" so I binned it. Being a drummer I like the low end, but at the end of the day, once my ears changed a bit and the low boomy bass I "thought" I liked, was actually a very real negative. Anyway... I compromised and now I'm happy. (for now) haha! |
Miller. I have just ordered another ML Dynamo to match existing one. If it does not play nice by wireless then I can wire it as the wireless transmitter also has RCA out. By my room I really have to have them diagonally opposite as I said especially to keep well away from my tables. I could possibly get to three subs but due to layout that would be it and third one would go left rear. I will try the new one to the rear right but not exactly in the corner and play around a bit and see what improvement I can realize. Not that I am unhappy right now but you usually do not know what you were missing until you find it! |
REL, REL , REL, oh did I mention REL, and the post that started this thread is correct, you must first understand what bass really is, how it is distributed, and how to properly integrate it i to (your system). Every system dynamics are different due to room size etc, and as mentioned before if you know where the bass is coming from you have set it up incorrectly, not only will a properly set up sub allow your main speakers sound like they are bigger then life ( not only bass but in mid range also), also learn what High level connections can do for you when it comes to a sub. I recently upgraded to a line array system for my 2 channel system (if I could post pics here I would) , and was simply blown away , granted They consist of 28 6.5" woofers and 38 3" Motorola ceramic piezo tweeters in each column , using one REL Britannia B1 sub (yes its older but works as it should), the sound is phenomenal , and breathe taking , speakers and sub are controlled through a Samson S3 crossover network, and of course bi amped . Subs rule , but IMHO buy from a manufacturer who only builds subs for the best quality and technological attributes towards your systems dynamics. |
Unless you really need the deepest room shaking notes found on that occasional track or action movie sound track- a full range (or near full range) speaker driven by plenty of power is a better solution for me. 100 watts driving the main speakers just won't compete with subwoofer amplifiers of 500 to 1000 watts or more. Drive your main speakers with 200 / 250 watts at 8-ohms and the need for a subwoofer greatly diminishes and becomes a better case set of compromises than even the best subwoofer setup. You have $ to invest in a subwoofer system? invest in a bigger amp instead IMHO. |
As per the instructions i received . I put a powered sub on my listening seat and then played a 30hz tone . While it and only it was playing i went around the room with a measurement app on my iphone . I looked for hotspots reaching high and low everywhere . The locations were oddly NOT symmetrical to the room . One 10” is 13ft to the right of my right main against the wall . The other 10” is up high in the far left back corner almost 30ft away , the 15” subs are downstairs to my left fore and aft to me and the 18” subs are opposing each other between the sweet spot and the mains under the floor . But when all the subs were placed in those locations and wires ran and tweaked for output it is incredible . I used to have my 18” jbls under my mains . They are no longer there as there was a hot spot in front of ONE main and not the other . Due to the size of these subs (12cuft) i removed them both for aesthetic reasons . The mid and high detail as well as the 3d image is very engaging . The placement went against everything i thought i knew about sound. Completely makes sense now. |