Eh hem!...Subwoofers... What do ya know?

I just went through all this since the golden ear accolades for the swarm set up .I have  spent every waking moment working on it for a couple weeks until it is so perfect its real. Running 2 18” ,2 15” and 2 10” placed with help from tim. The idea of spending thousands on one killer sub seems idiotic to me now . Any one of them is barely percievable that they are even on when you walk up to them . But the entire room is alive. (2000sqft) no boomy voices or having to reach for the remote because things seem suddenly ridiculous. The hardest part was just properly running the wires. All mono . Using a bx63a crossover. The main subs are under the floor suspended from the ceiling . Aiming each other 20” apart. The rest are placed in the standing waves of the room. I feel like the subs are part of the room now and i can audition any main speakers i want .  Room treatment seems less and less necessary the more dialed it gets.  

As per the instructions i received . I put a powered sub on my listening seat and then played a 30hz tone . While it and only it was playing i went around the room with a measurement app on my iphone . I looked for hotspots reaching high and low everywhere . The locations were oddly NOT symmetrical to the room . One 10” is 13ft to the right of my right main against the wall . The other 10” is up high in the far left back corner almost 30ft away , the 15” subs are downstairs to my left fore and aft to me and the 18” subs are opposing each other between the sweet spot and the mains under the floor . But when all the subs were placed in those locations and wires ran and tweaked for output it is incredible . I used to have my 18” jbls under my mains . They are no longer there as there was a hot spot in front of ONE main and not the other . Due to the size of these subs (12cuft) i removed them both for aesthetic reasons .  The mid and high detail as well as the 3d image is very engaging . The placement went against everything i thought i knew about sound. Completely makes sense now. 

I think everyone is on the right track relating to their own likes . I agree having lots of power to mains is important. My mains are 3 way bi amped . 150w solid state to the 15” woofer and 100wch tube to the horns, tweets. Asking the woofers to reach down to the basement takes away from their clarity . Subs reinforce those very low notes and in this way gives an omnipresent feel to the sound . With my remote on my c46 preamp i can cut the outputs i used to engage the subs . Sound is still beautiful but having that ability from your chair to turn them on and off sure trains you to set them modestly as to only give the full picture nothing more.  Think of the 20th century fox orchestra intro where the last sound is made by a very large drum kind of a whomp powerful yet subtle . Can you hear a sub? Or the room that drum was recorded. The silence between notes is the most beautiful sound. 

Theres no magic to placing your mains . Rule of thumb is placing at eye height and the distance between them is how far either is from your head . 60 degree triangle . I’m not quite sure what you are asking but the soundstage is the biggest part . Make sure the set up is in the center of a wall . Its all about YOUR ears . Everyones ears are different. All anyone can recommend is better math.  Other wise ear buds wouldnt have adapters for different shape ears. Poor symmetry   makes premium equipment sound midfi . We were only talking about subs and the various methods of use. 

No, its the physical position of the sub that dictates where the standing waves end up . Put the sub on your listening chair , now go around the room and find where the bass is loudest. Now put your sub there. The end. Leave your mains off during this. Makes it easier. And less violently loud while you figure it out.

Turn the crossover all the way down . To 50 or 63 depending what you have. Then try as i suggested which i learned from duke and tim. Put the sub in your chair. Now listen all over your room . You may have to crawl on the floor to find the hot spot . I used a phone app with the spectrum on it. And listen . There are spots all over in your room and they may not be where you think. Now put you sub at one of these spots preferrably the loudest spot . And turn your sub down. It will be far more efficient now. 

toe in helps keep reflections off the side walls . Improves clairity and stage. Dont toe in so far that they aim in front of you . Most you want is at you .
my mains i set up with a building lazer. Centered , same angle and 40” from tweeter to rear wall . My focus point 20ft behind me . I dont have side reflection because my side walls are also 20ft away . My small living room is normal and my speakers aim directly at me. No sub required. 

Bah ! Subwoofers ! You kids and your rock and roll music . 
My mains have all the bass response I’m sure some would like to have . But i also want six subs . And since i do what i want ..
seriously though i think people do not use them properly to get a hifi effect out of them . I guarantee the majority could turn them down a notch to achieve proper reinforcement. Turn it down to the point where you actually have to feel the woofer to see its on . Then leave it there chances are if its in the right location as explained ten times on here it will sound perfect . 

The sound is much less localized in my large room. Using just my mains when I’m alone is fine . You can sense the depth of bass all the way down its roll off (below 30hz ) but large room = more people . More people needs more bass . The subtly of the deep bass is no longer existent over people talking after 3-4 drinks. And you want the ability to flex your audio muscles in this case. You can be an audio snob when youre alone or else people will quit coming over. Most people dont care or have a clue to what their listening to . I’ve explained my system to out of town family and they looked at me like i was effed in the head. Anyways , 


Read why the swarm got a golden ear award then shut off the computer . 

They dont have to be the same. So long as you have some sort of control over them. 

Dont sacrifice any imaging . Your bass response is what it is. If its not good enough to your liking , go to the store. Dial your imaging the best it can be. 

I agree 

Cerber79

No, it wouldnt work like that. I dont know the sub but perhaps two of them are passive ?  Being bass is omnidirectional would still have the same effect as one sub . 

I’ve always been able to hear where they are . And thats not good . Its the room and the placement  and its the equalization. I am happiest I’ve ever been after duke and tim shed some light on dukes swarm . Its incredible. What it did to my mains and the whole room is beautiful. Unfortunately not everyone  is going to have room for 4+ subs.   A single high dollar sub would cost as much but not be able to compete sound wise. 

Don c55 
 
have you exhaustively set up , tweeked then disliked 4 subwoofers ? It makes your sound stage that much bigger. The beauty part is that you dont make your bass any louder. each device runs a bit lower . And if set up properly , puts the bass focused where you want it. If there was content would you not want to hear it ? Especially considering its at the portion of the audible spectrum that doesnt require bat ears . Your sound stage is freed of the mud that is made with poorly set up system .  

That would for sure get you kicked out of an apartment . Way overpriced for what it is , an electric motor , a woofer motor and a fan. A proper price point would be 800 bucks not 13,000 . Very curious though.  

Yes , if there is ideal placement and no distortion , timing on and on , the below 80 applies. Then its good . 

I would try everything. Even keeping that position and aiming at each other . You may find only one is needed there and another in the back corner . Take one of them place it on your chair and check the room for standing waves as noted before . Then place the sub where the bass was the loudest. And keep them turned down . Or the bass will sound loose . 

Does anyone technically know what happens when you aim two subs at each other?  Say a foot or 2 feet apart . Is there an ideal distance apart to do with frequency? Does it have an affect on the opposing woofer itself such as improving the rearward movement of each other? Would have to be a specific distance i assume . A possible equation ?

Reason i ask is i have 2 x18” jbl 2245 aiming at about 20” apart and hung from the underside of floor . And they sound incredible . Not  boomy sound but accurate and on cue. They have a very black background. And only reveal themselves when there is very low program material. 

I would think that within a certain distance . One opposing driver would either assist or hinder the other at a given frequency. Taking all walls and reflective surfaces out of the equation . Dead of space. Think about a truly tuned exhaust. It reflects a sound wave within to increase power . At some point i would assume the area of an 18” speaker would be affected by the other . In phase. Question is how. 

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/technical/1983-subs.htm
This is the design used to build the subs . I built them exactly to design , 12cuft version