Effect of Internet Service Quality on Streaming?

Was looking forward to comparing my streamed song against the local file tonight during the “bad” period, but unfortunately for the test, it’s really not sounding bad at all tonight.  Not at all like last night which was unlistenable.  And, one kid is playing games online and the other is FaceTiming friends in a marathon call.  And there’s a kitchen fan in the background that is on, plus there is a loud computer fan that is on as well.  Doesn’t sound as great as really late or earlier in the day, but not terrible like it was yesterday!

Your digital can and does pick up packet noise from home to home 

this is why I installed a good LPS  power supply and bought my own upgraded router modem combo motorola 8702 which has docsis 3.1 many are older 3.0 

the new ones much better wifi picture even tv streaming Roku.

I hard wire my streaming the LPS which I use Linear Tube Audio Excellent !

nothing even close under $1200 , it’s on sale$700  Audiogon  and the DC cableto the router is excellent ,most others charge $150  for the cable , youcan buy a LPS for $3-400 but no where is good and crappy Dc cable , use decent aftermarket power cords.and a decent Ethernet switch for $600 the best  LHY , SW-8 

eastern electric no not as good just look at the parts quality compared. And decent Ethernet cables . The most important cable for sure is at the end point. Look for  Telegartner make topEthernet connectors on your cables. 

@lalitk yes I’m really looking forward to trying the Network Acoustics products.  It was Christiaan’s review on HiFi Advice that really motivated me to order those goodies.  He’s a great and very descriptive reviewer who is not afraid to compare products in a descriptive way.  And everything he said about the Tempus are the qualities I’m always seeking.  The big question is, how it compares to the PhoenixNET, which of course is highly regarded.  From Christiaan’s review I am expecting the Tempus to possibly be airier with the PhoenixNET being more dense and organic, but we’ll see.

I think it’s probably 85% power related and 15% ambient noise or something to that effect. Who knows…gremlins everywhere 😂

@nyev 

I can’t wait to hear your impressions after Network Acoustics goodies are in place. I’ve read nothing high praises for Tempus switch and Muon Pro. I had ENO in my system many moons ago before switching to Telegartner Gold 12 Switch + JCAT LPS and JCAT Sig Gold LAN cabling. 

@audphile1 

I must be in minority here to report that my system is immune to high’s or low’s as some of you experiencing. Granted, I have paid ‘special’ attention to passive grounding, separate power distributors for analog and digital, pair of dedicated power lines. 

OP:

I prefer Furman power conditioners, and if I have concerns about he power stability I use a Furman with the VR (Voltage Regulator) feature.  IMHO it is a good trade-off to the power regenerators.

@erik_squires , sigh, yeah I think you are likely right.  I was hoping.

Regarding regenerators, I’ve been curious about them but after digging into them, it seems that they don’t actually help with noise but helps with other things?  Phrased as a question as I’m not totally sure about that.  I have an idea in my mind that they help by removing DC and also stabilizing voltage but again I’m not sure…  

High ping times are fine, it’s error rates and high jitter (> 300mSeconds) that can cause issues.  Large ping times may make a stream slower to START but once started don't add up over time. 

500 Mbps is more than enough to stream just about anything.

IMHO, only really poor streamers should have a problem with Internet conditions you’ve described. They usually have several seconds of buffering built in, which can sometimes be configured, which should eliminate all but the worst kind of connections.

IMHO, again, it’s much more likely to be a power issue.

@audphile1, I think you are probably right.  I was hoping that just maybe, it was an issue was something I could address, if it was related to my network/internet.

I don’t think my issue is ambient noise; my system sounds almost as good most of the day, it’s just the 3-5 hours around dinner time that is an issue.

@nyev my system is plugged into two dedicated circuits. The sound is better after 11pm. Everything is quieter, my family members including my dog are not running around. Sound is fantastic. I tried Ethernet filters (N A Eno streaming system) and it changes the sound yes, but does it filter anything? May be. But it didn’t mitigate the lower performance of my system until that quiet moment after 11pm comes. 
So in my opinion it’s a mix of everything that uses electricity in your house plus people who quit disrupting our listening before midnight. Doubt it’s Ethernet/internet quality. 

@lalitk , I have a Muon Pro, two Network Acoustics ethernet cables, and a Tempus switch on order, to replace my Innuos PhoenixNET and two Audioquest Diamond network cables - assuming I don't return it all in 30 days that is....

That said I still don't know at this point if my issues are due to network degradation (which I DO see on measurements during periods of bad quality), or AC power noise, or both.

I've downloaded from HDTracks a 16/44 version of a test track I use a lot and put it on my server.  Right now, both the Tidal streamed version and the local file sound fantastic.  Different, but both great.  A bit better image specificity on the local file but really I enjoy them both.  I will wait until I get crap quality again, and do another comparison.  If they are both bad, I suppose it means AC power noise is the limiting factor.  If the local file is much better, then I will 1) see if the Network Acoustics gear changes things when it arrives, and 2) follow up with my ISP as @hgeifman suggested.

@nyev

I would try Muon Pro filter between your Innuous switch and Streamer. Comes with 30days money back guarantee.

Based on your comments above, and the fact that your SQ is great sometimes and poor other times, as I stated above, I suggest you ask your Internet service provider for an in house audit of your Internet signal coming into your home. In addition, please check your router to ensure its software is up to date and working okay.

Your Internet Service Provider needs to check the signal both outside your home and inside In other words, is the signal strong and solid outside your home at the junction box and still strong inside your home at the point of entry and at the cable modem. Please confirm the cable modem is their current model.

For example, my Internet signal was very poor at the outside junction box because of poor wire connections He replaced all connections at the junction box and all connections at the box on the side of my home. Unfortunately, these connections go bad after time and impact the signal. This is why I am suggesting your ISP audit your signal, connections, etc. He also replaced the cables and connections inside my home. Everything worked perfectly after these corrections were made.

Thanks all. @ghdprentice i wish it were my streamer. My streamer/server is actually an Innuos Zenith Mk3, feeding a PhoenixUSB reclocker (went back from the Grimm in the end). I had the same swings in sound quality with both products - no difference whatsoever on that front.  I also briefly owned an Aurender N20 and the problem also remained.

I will try comparing local files vs streamed when the SQ goes south next (it is great right now).

I live in a quiet, treed area with space between houses and very limited traffic, and even when there are no household ambient sounds I still get poor sound that peaks around dinner time.

I actually do have fibre service, at 500Mbps (worth getting faster service?).

Yesterday I did test latency and jitter, using the online fusion network speed test tool. Latency and jitter readings were absolutely higher during the period my system was sounding worse. But, I’d assume that maybe AC was also noisier during this “peak demand” time.

@hgeifman Thanks I will look into “signal frequency response”. Haven’t heard of that before..

System is back to sounding incredible right now. But after dinner last night was about the worst I’ve ever heard it! Muffled, compressed, no higher frequencies coming through, loss of dynamics, overall dull.

Related question - does anyone know if Class D amplifiers are supposed to be more immune to AC noise?  I’m considering some changes to my system and a possibility is that I could move to the Mola Mola amplifiers.  I am aware of the general pros and cons of Class D but not sure if they are more immune to environmental noise.  Guessing not but it crossed my mind as a possible solution.

My immediate reaction was, it’s your streamer. Then I looked at your streamer. I had a Grimm in my system for a while. It sounded very good, definitely worth the money. Sonically it was not quite as good as mine… but it was much less expensive.

But thinking about your problem. I put a very high probability that it is that your streamer cannot cope with either your power or internet connection. Aurender streamers get very heavy as the go up in performance. The Grimm is very light weight… indicating to me it is lacking massive electrical and vibration isolation. That would account for it sounding good in my system and yours when power and the internet is quiet. The Aurrender has massive electrical isolation from outside and cashing to make up for bad internet performance. My streamer sounds exactly the same at all times. While there is a very slight increase in system performance late at night… it is the whole system related to the power grid.

I recommend borrowing a Aurender W20SE. I bet the problem goes away. I would think even an Aurender N20 will significantly if not completely mitigate the problem.

I suggest you ask your Internet service provider to check the signal frequently response and all the cable connections in your home. My frequency response was too high and he replaced all my inside connections.  He also corrected and rewired the cables in my outside box.  

jwei said, Glad I had my vinyl and CDs.

Amen Brother!!!!!!

Sure.

I like to relax and listen to music on holidays.  Few years ago, my internet stopped working for a whole day on Labor Day.  Way to go Spectrum!

Glad I had my vinyl and CDs.

Regarding DSL: I am on DSL from Century link. There is a fiber trunc 2 blocks from my house from there its phone line to house. I pay for 50 Mbps and just tested it and I am getting around 60 Mbps down load. Only outage I have ever had is when squirrel nested in line pack. After some upgrades to my streaming stack i have near the same SQ as my Rega P6/AniaPro/decentphonostage. I occasionally get drops but its tolerable. I work from home on a Secure VPN , stream tv and music all the while. Occasionally I have to upload large software installations to remote servers albeit slow, taking hours , its consistently solid.

I’ve never bought the AC noise explanation. I have an oscilloscope and it doesn’t change much day to night and an good power regenerator cleans it up anyway.

You can check if it is your internet by just trying a CD in a transport using the same DAC.

I think often it is ambient noise. We often don’t realize how much ambient noise is coming from both inside and outside the home.

Jerry

As an experiment you can put some FLAC or HiRes files on a USB stick and play from that during the times when you are getting worse quality.  If that does not suffer from the quality issues you know it is likely not the power but is your connection instead.

First, @noromance covers it pretty much.  ADSL/DSL is like 30 year old technology with extremely limited bandwidth.  I'm not really concerned with the physical connections, but the back switches and routers on those circuits are probably just as old and will never be upgraded.  Consider cable, fiber or 5G based Internet as a much better options.

Generally speaking though, most streamers have enough buffers that they can ignore normal internet latencies, but not errors and reconnects.  Roon for instance has the ability to choose how much of a streaming buffer you use to try to eliminate this issue. 

Next, if possible, avoid Wifi streaming.  If it's not possible to avoid it, use a phone or laptop Wifi analyzer app to ensure your router is on an unused channel.

ADSL/DSL runs over copper pair phone lines. Ever see the connections in Krone boxes using blades? The diodic interface there alone can’t be good. Have you tried cable or fibre?

You’ve covered most of the bases, and I can’t answer your question about internet services. However, one suggestion is adding optical isolation on the network, it’s a cheap experiment. 

Forgot to mention, I’ve tried several conditioners (Torus RM20, Audioquest Niagara 5000, Puritan PSM156, others). I also have a PhoenixNET Innuos switch with Audioquest Diamond Ethernet cables.  And I have dedicated 20A AC lines, Shunyata outlets in my wall, etc.  All of which makes things better but the delta between good and bad periods remains.  It’s just the bad periods are less bad and the good periods are even better.