Effect of Internet Service Quality on Streaming?

Was looking forward to comparing my streamed song against the local file tonight during the “bad” period, but unfortunately for the test, it’s really not sounding bad at all tonight.  Not at all like last night which was unlistenable.  And, one kid is playing games online and the other is FaceTiming friends in a marathon call.  And there’s a kitchen fan in the background that is on, plus there is a loud computer fan that is on as well.  Doesn’t sound as great as really late or earlier in the day, but not terrible like it was yesterday!

@lalitk yes I’m really looking forward to trying the Network Acoustics products.  It was Christiaan’s review on HiFi Advice that really motivated me to order those goodies.  He’s a great and very descriptive reviewer who is not afraid to compare products in a descriptive way.  And everything he said about the Tempus are the qualities I’m always seeking.  The big question is, how it compares to the PhoenixNET, which of course is highly regarded.  From Christiaan’s review I am expecting the Tempus to possibly be airier with the PhoenixNET being more dense and organic, but we’ll see.

Forgot to mention, I’ve tried several conditioners (Torus RM20, Audioquest Niagara 5000, Puritan PSM156, others). I also have a PhoenixNET Innuos switch with Audioquest Diamond Ethernet cables.  And I have dedicated 20A AC lines, Shunyata outlets in my wall, etc.  All of which makes things better but the delta between good and bad periods remains.  It’s just the bad periods are less bad and the good periods are even better.

@audphile1, I think you are probably right.  I was hoping that just maybe, it was an issue was something I could address, if it was related to my network/internet.

I don’t think my issue is ambient noise; my system sounds almost as good most of the day, it’s just the 3-5 hours around dinner time that is an issue.

Thanks all. @ghdprentice i wish it were my streamer. My streamer/server is actually an Innuos Zenith Mk3, feeding a PhoenixUSB reclocker (went back from the Grimm in the end). I had the same swings in sound quality with both products - no difference whatsoever on that front.  I also briefly owned an Aurender N20 and the problem also remained.

I will try comparing local files vs streamed when the SQ goes south next (it is great right now).

I live in a quiet, treed area with space between houses and very limited traffic, and even when there are no household ambient sounds I still get poor sound that peaks around dinner time.

I actually do have fibre service, at 500Mbps (worth getting faster service?).

Yesterday I did test latency and jitter, using the online fusion network speed test tool. Latency and jitter readings were absolutely higher during the period my system was sounding worse. But, I’d assume that maybe AC was also noisier during this “peak demand” time.

@hgeifman Thanks I will look into “signal frequency response”. Haven’t heard of that before..

System is back to sounding incredible right now. But after dinner last night was about the worst I’ve ever heard it! Muffled, compressed, no higher frequencies coming through, loss of dynamics, overall dull.

Related question - does anyone know if Class D amplifiers are supposed to be more immune to AC noise?  I’m considering some changes to my system and a possibility is that I could move to the Mola Mola amplifiers.  I am aware of the general pros and cons of Class D but not sure if they are more immune to environmental noise.  Guessing not but it crossed my mind as a possible solution.

@lalitk , I have a Muon Pro, two Network Acoustics ethernet cables, and a Tempus switch on order, to replace my Innuos PhoenixNET and two Audioquest Diamond network cables - assuming I don't return it all in 30 days that is....

That said I still don't know at this point if my issues are due to network degradation (which I DO see on measurements during periods of bad quality), or AC power noise, or both.

I've downloaded from HDTracks a 16/44 version of a test track I use a lot and put it on my server.  Right now, both the Tidal streamed version and the local file sound fantastic.  Different, but both great.  A bit better image specificity on the local file but really I enjoy them both.  I will wait until I get crap quality again, and do another comparison.  If they are both bad, I suppose it means AC power noise is the limiting factor.  If the local file is much better, then I will 1) see if the Network Acoustics gear changes things when it arrives, and 2) follow up with my ISP as @hgeifman suggested.

@erik_squires , sigh, yeah I think you are likely right.  I was hoping.

Regarding regenerators, I’ve been curious about them but after digging into them, it seems that they don’t actually help with noise but helps with other things?  Phrased as a question as I’m not totally sure about that.  I have an idea in my mind that they help by removing DC and also stabilizing voltage but again I’m not sure…  

@jkevinoc , I believe you are correct in the way that modern playback software works. But I don’t believe the “captured” and cached stream would be a bit-perfect copy of an equivalent purchased local file at the same bit rate. Possibly due to differences in the streaming company’s source file, and possibly due to errors introduced in the stream that the cached copy came from originally (due to noise or jitter). And yes, I am aware that the Ethernet protocol has error correction built in, but I still believe noise and jitter are still factors.

@jeffseight , I am based in western Canada. Never heard of the device you are referring to but I’ll look into it - thanks for the suggestion.

I’ve not been able to measure the quality of my power as I don’t have a meter that reads THD. I mentioned above that I had measured my internet service quality using Fusion network tests (a website you go to and click to start the test). Measures jitter, latency, download and upload speed. And as I mentioned, when the sound is bad, jitter and latency go from their normal 3ms and 12ms to spikes of 40ms or so and 70ms, respectively.  I’m simply guessing that AC quality is also poorer during those times.

@jeffseight just read up on the Add Power devices and they sure look interesting.  Would definitely like to try one if I could but at the same time, it doesn’t look designed to deal with the specific issues that I’m having.

@wsrrsw I’ve tried cutting power to the TV, and yeah, I did think of that.  No devices or appliances are near my system. LED household pot lights are near by. No cell towers or anything nearby that I know of.  It’s generally (but not always) the same time windows when quality tanks so pretty sure it’s related to AC and possibly internet service quality blips.

Yes, I’ve tried three different streamers (Innuos, Grimm, N20).

@lordrootman, I’ve had this problem for a couple of years in my system, prior to my 20A dedicated lines and prior to my conditioners.  In fact, the dedicated 20A lines and conditioners was my first attempt to address the issue.  I even engaged @kingrex of King Rex Electric to help draft a specification for my dedicated lines. These upgrades really helped improve things, but the massive shift in quality depending on time was still there.  I know this issue is not unique, but I feel like the degree of the variance I get may be extreme and unusual.  Ranges from an unlistenable stuffy mess to absolutely sublime.

Just had a thought. People in this thread have mentioned that a component could be to blame. But the only gear that has not been swapped in or out while the issue has persisted, besides cabling, is my Diablo 300 integrated. Everything else has been added removed or changed while this problem has existed.

BUT…. The first time I noticed this issue ever was when I upgraded from Clarus Crimson Biwire speaker cables (fantastic speaker cables these…) to Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables. A couple of years ago I did ask Nordost if they’d could be picking up RF energy or something and I think they said something to the effect of yes, but the amount would be negligible and couldn’t have any effect. So I had attributed it to the increased transparency of the Nordost cables exposing the issues. But now, I’m wondering if just maybe it IS a component issue, and the component with the issue is my Valhalla 2 cables.

To be clear I think this is almost certainly not the issue. BUT, because I first noticed the issue when adding these cables to my system, maybe I should try to rule it out. Am thinking I might need to get my hands on a demo pair premium speaker cables to try, at a Valhalla 2 or better level.

Was researching whether the issue could be my Valhalla 2 speaker cables (since I first noticed the issue after upgrading to these cables) and I came across a thread on that topic on this forum, that I had started years ago. Didn’t recall it but that’s probably because there was nothing conclusive. As above maybe I just need to get a premium demo pair of speaker cables from another vendor to compare during the bad quality period, if only to rule out the outside chance the issue would be addressed with a different set of cables and to rule out the possibility that my Valhalla 2’s are not enabling the problem.

Thanks for the ideas All. My sound has not experienced a SIGNIFICANT dip in quality since Friday evening so I’ve not yet had the chance to test streamed vs local file during a “bad” period.

To answer a few questions that have come up:

• No I don’t have a dedicated network line to my Innuos Zenith Mk3 streamer. I do have the Innuos PhoenixNET switch in front of my streamer/server.
• During the bad periods before I’ve had family members stop their internet usage in the house and it didn’t improve things noticeably
• I’ve upgraded power cables a number of times (have Audioquest Dragons now) and the major quality swings remain
• I’ve tried several conditioners including the AQ Niagara 5000, a Shunyata Hydra, a Puritan PSM156, and also a Torus RM 20 isolation transformer and they all had equal swings in quality. None were any better than the other in this front so I highly doubt a different conditioner is the answer. Also sceptical that a PS Audio regenerator would produce better results, but I’d be open to that possibility. Not my first place to look to fix but something in the back of my mind.
• Ahead of my Innuos PhoenixNET switch I just have the fiber modem from my ISP, feeding a the wifi router from my ISP which feeds an inexpensive D-Link switch in a smart panel (should I upgrade this???), with 60ft of generic new network cable going through my wall that eventually feeds my Innuos network switch. Maybe there is a problem here???
• I need to update my system listed on Audiogon - I now have a Tambaqui DAC, the Innuos Zenith Mk3 and PhoenixUSB reclocker (no Grimm MU1 anymore), I have a Puritan PSM156 now, and I’ve upgraded my my speakers to Audiovector R6 Arrete’s. Also have upgraded all power cords to Audioquest Dragons.

Thanks All, lots of ideas and as I mentioned I’ve been dealing with this issue for a few years now, with numerous changes to my system during that period.

Lots of great ideas to improve my upstream network to consider. That said, while these ideas may improve my system, I am doubtful they will resolve my occasional extreme quality dips. Because, like others have said in this thread, I think it must be a power issue as opposed to network. I started this thread hoping maybe I did have a network issue as I think that sort of issue would have a better shot at being solvable.

I’ve experienced a few dips since starting this thread, but not as extreme as last Friday evening. During the recent dips, I did try to see if the gap between the local and streamed file widened, but it did not - they both seemed slightly degraded which again points to power - or possibly RF noise - being the culprit…

Maybe grounding boxes will help, but that would be an expensive shot in the dark to hope it’s the solution! I’ll keep trying things.

@tonnesen that is a very interesting option (running off of batteries).  Are there any downsides to the SQ vs other more traditional alternatives?  

I did read a report from a fellow Audiogoner who had much experience with conditioners before going to a Stromtank - which is a very, very expensive solution.  But even that he mentioned in a post that he felt there was some loss of dynamics.

@audphile1 , I used to have the amp plugged into the PSM156 but have been running it into the wall directly for some time now, in a dedicated 20A line.  While I prefer it plugged into the wall, I didn’t actually experience any loss of dynamics, end like now, the sound quality would occasionally dip very low.  As I mentioned I’ve tried a number of conditioners none of which helped with this issue.

Thanks All - New Router, CAT-8 Cables, Grounding Boxes, and THC - Got It!

These are all great ideas that will likely improve sound quality (esp THC - what is that, “Total Harmonic Control” or something?  Sounds promising.

But none of these will fix the dips in quality, which in case you haven’t read my post above, I agree with everyone that has said it’s not my network.  Because, playing an equivalent local file is also bad when quality is bad.

That leaves noisy AC power and RF as likely culprits, but probably AC.  And as above I’ve tried many conditioners and isolation transformers.  It may be that my only solution is a Stromtank, one day down the road.