Different R2R DACs

I’d buy a new Gustard R26 DAC through Amazon and see if that does it for you on the relative cheap and just return it if it doesn’t bowl you over.  I’d also recommend a used Acoustic Zen MC2 digital cable as it can transform your digital experience unless you already have a very accomplished digital cable.  Last, I recently added a used Denafrips Iris DDC so I could take advantage of my Musician Pegasus i2S input and it was not a small improvement.  FWIW.

Been listening to a used Musician Aquarius since yesterday morning. 1st time I’ve ever heard an R2R dac. Waaaay mo Betta than my Burson Composer which will be going up for sale shortly. 

@jjss49 +1

It is the some of the parts. 

Have a LessLoss Echo's End DAC I have been auditioning and I am keeping it!

Wood chassis R2R  and it sounds perfect in my system.  No LED's or buttons just great sound.

i repeat - you CANNOT and should not conclude what a dac will sound like by just the technology employed for the d/a conversion...

Sorry, but you got the wrong end of R2R DAC, The terminator is much better than the May, based on your taste. The May DAC is more diffused, and the Terminator is more incisive. Even amongst R2R DAC, there will be some SQ differences.

late to the thread, but I have a Freya + and it's my first pre-amp, so I have no comparison. what should I be hearing that I'm not now? Thanks

@ghasley Merason DAC 1 is a bargain, even after the price hike.

It’s really good.

In my previous post I forgot to mention that the Ares 2 Has ambience, and instrument decay the likes I never heard before.

Thanks @gillsysb. Enjoy the music!  ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ ♭ ♮ ♯ 

@sleeeepguy 

I have an Innuos Zenith MkIII

In my previous post I forgot to mention that the Ares 2 Has ambience, and instrument decay the likes I never heard before.

I'm on day 10 with my continuously on Denafrips Ares 2. Cold, sterile, and brittle right out of then box. Started to warm up a bit after seven hours. I am very pleased with it. Background vocals are real nice, holographic at times (material dependent). The bass is the most realistic I've heard with weight, and impact. Dynamics are very good. I don't feel the desire to look any further. I'll mention my system, as synergy matters. Ifi Zen Stream, Ares 2 dac, Mac MA5300 (internal dac does not compare), Cary CDP-1, and B&W 705 S2 speakers. The Ares 2 replaced a Topping D70S dac. It is a pretty good dac, but I was drawn to a ladder dac.

Great point.  What are you using as a streamer?  Don’t know if I will hear a marketable improvement if my weakest link shutters any improvement.

@sleeeepguy 

I'm not experienced with the Bluesound but a general rule of thumb might be to buy the Merason and know that it will not be the weak link in your system. It will continue to scale ever higher as you upgrade your streaming in the future. I don't see how you can go wrong if you liked the sound you heard.

@ghasley 

I was fortunate to have come across Performance Hifi in Copenhagen on holiday this week who had the Merason DAC1 in their store and it sounded phenomenal there. I have been on a journey to finding a DAC w these qualities but don’t understand enough about what hardware I need to Source/Stream to the Merason. I currently use a Bluesound Node as I use this ecosystem in my home.  What will be missing using the Node to Stream? What other streamers should I look at?  This DAC is at the TOP of my range and there isn’t much room for adding a new Streamer, but LOVED the musicality of this DAC in the setup I saw,

metaldetektor    Back to the topic at hand -- reasonably priced R2R dacs -- I've put the Sonnet through its paces and it's great. Accurate and nuanced timbre, balanced from top to bottom, no digital edge. Is it as good as my reference DAC that costs three times as much? It is not. I could go on at length as to why, but what's the point -- they're in very different price brackets. I have yet to find this mythical thing called a giant killer. If you think you've found one, you're looking at the wrong giant. But if I was searching for a DAC in the $3-4k range, it's a wonderful DAC I could happily settle down with.

Thanks for this followup it's much appreciated.

M 

@charles1dad its a fun hobby with wonderful people (mostly LOL). There has never been a better time to be in the hobby. There has never been more amazing products available than today and I can't wait to see what's over the horizon. I utilize some seriously old tech and some seriously new tech and never has high end gear been better built, better sounding or more reliable. All the best charles.

@ghasley ,

I appreciate your contribution to this thread and mentioning/introducing  the Merason DAC1. I hadn't heard of this Swiss made component.  It certainly seems to be a first rate product. This forum can be very useful in bringing awareness of smaller companies that produce excellent audio components. @in_shore brought to my attention recently  the Musician Aquarius DAC. There's  much good product available in High End audio. 

Charles 

to @ghasley and other interested readers of this thread

We are talking minor differences to major differences but these differences are the discovery that most dacs these days commit sins of omission rather than 20 years ago when a dac would exhibit sins of commission. In short almost any of the dacs I had and sold on I could have lived happily ever after with....some do some things better but none are bad, just different.

i believe these are the most important words in his post... we need to not lose perspective, among well reputed and well established dacs into mid and high 4 figures, none are bad and the differences, even on a resolving system, are not huge, all are able to deliver wonderful, very analog listening experiences

@ghasley, It just gets the job done in a way that makes you forget about the gear and lose yourself in the music.

Thanks for the great info, the above quote is exactly what I was after and carries more weight than a mainstream review.

The Merason was on my short list and now it's on an even shorter list together with the new Mojo Mystique X

Decisions, decisions 🤔

@lemonhaze I arrived at the Merason and the Meitner by reading and listening. I've left out many others I've tried and enjoyed to varying degrees: Nagra Classic Dac, Berkely, Border Patrol, MHDT, Audiomirror, Playback Designs, ARC, McIntosh and the list goes on. Full disclaimer: with VERY few exceptions, each of the dacs Ive had are wonderful and each do a fine job. We are talking minor differences to major differences but these differences are the discovery that most dacs these days commit sins of omission rather than 20 years ago when a dac would exhibit sins of commission. Inshort almost any of the dacs I had and sold on I could have lived happily ever after with....some do some things better but none are bad, just different.

Since its a hobby, I enjoy gear. Alot of it LOL. I appreciate the art, the craft and intellligent thinking that goes into the development of an idea into a product. When I read about a new piece of gear, or my dealer friends tell me about a new piece of gear, Im open to trying it. These are long term demos with my own money so to speak. I have five or six setups at any given moment with a main room system, a listening room and an office system as the three primary. They change and evolve and its fun. I happened upon the Merason, quite skeptically, on the advice of a great dealer (Atelier 13) and I tried it. Great out of the box, got better in a week and settled in after several more weeks. It was a retail purchase, no industry affiliations.

The Merason dac 1 is an absolutely exceptional dac. It reminds me of the Totaldac but with more dynamic snap, tonal color, decay and pace. Its a $10,000 dac that sells for $5500. Its a no nonsense box and while extremely well built and finished, it isnt a piece of audio jewelry that begs to placed on a pedestal and admired. It just gets the job done in a way that makes you forget about the gear and lose yourself in the music. I cant fault any part of the presentation. For reference it is in a system consisting of Shindo pre/amp, shindo and A23 cables driving Audio Note K spx speakers.

Is it a synergy thing? Yes. Do I believe it could be that it has a great output stage on the single ended outputs? Yes. Could that be why I prefer it to the MSB discrete? Yes, given that the MSB only had xlr outputs that I had the run using Cardas adapters that might have played a part in my preference. As I posted earlier in this thread, the Merason is exceptional. The Meitner MA3 is better still but its just  a matter of degrees in this hobby. If I were on a strict budget and could only have one sub $10,000 dac I would purchase a Merason Dac 1. Its a no-brainer at its price point and performance. If I were comparing the MA3 vs the DAC 1 and I could only have one and my budget was $10,000, the MA3 is a no-brainer easy recommendation.

You can't go wrong with either dac....heck, there are so many great dacs out there at every price point that we in the hobby have never been better served. Good luck in your search and let us know where you settle.

@ghasley, that is an impressive line up of DACs you mention and it is noteworthy to see you now have the Merason. Could you please elaborate on how you arrived at that choice. The only one in your list that I've heard is the Dave via headphones. It's not sensible for me to try and relate that to how it would sound in my system through speakers.  

Yes

Agree with Charles and Big Kid

@jjss49

"there are r2r dacs that are forward, there are delta sigma dacs that are absolutely pure and musical sounding, there are dacs using both/either methods that sound dull and lifeless"

Wise and truthful counsel from you and @bigkidz. In my opinion, power supply quality, analogue output stage and even I/V conversion are critical and essential factors that determine the overall sonic signature of a DAC.

There’s overblown emphasis on the R2R versus delta sigma issue.

Charles

@metaldetektor

My main points were simply not to make too much of a reviewer's purchase or of the A+ rating.  Nice that you found this reviewer compatable even though IIUC he has not been reviewing for them all that long.  Enjoy the DAC.  Seems like a nice long-term investment.

@melm The right review -- to the right reader -- means something. A reviewer with gear and taste that overlap with mine...their take means something to me. The trick is finding the right reviewers for you. That Stereophile reviewer spent time with another piece of gear I own. We both loved it. Evidently that reviewer's take means more to me than it does to you. So be it.

I chatted with the gentleman you mention below. He moved onto a more expensive DAC which personally isn't to my taste. But live and let live. This hobby is about musical enjoyment. System-matching and taste-matching is the entire game.

Back to the topic at hand -- reasonably priced R2R dacs -- I've put the Sonnet through its paces and it's great. Accurate and nuanced timbre, balanced from top to bottom, no digital edge. Is it as good as my reference DAC that costs three times as much? It is not. I could go on at length as to why, but what's the point -- they're in very different price brackets. I have yet to find this mythical thing called a giant killer. If you think you've found one, you're looking at the wrong giant. But if I was searching for a DAC in the $3-4k range, it's a wonderful DAC I could happily settle down with.

Auditioned the MHDT Orchid and was not too impressed. Although it didn’t have any flaws either. Returned it and took the 10% penalty.

Right now I’m content with RME ADI2 followed by a tube buffer(Ifi itube2).

Equipment: AtmaM60, Zu DruidV

@metaldetektor

Interesting that you write about the accommodation pricing available to reviewers, especially of the more important journals. That he bought the review DAC means nothing, really. Most of these reviews mean nothing. He writes glowingly about a DAC. It slots into the A+ class. It has to or no one will ever buy one. Consider that there is $1450 DAC in that class. The A+ class which was introduced as the better-than-the-best class. Then a post here that he and a friend bought and soon sold the units having been very disappointed. What a surprise!

The accommodation DAC will soon be sold for profit (due to a great review) and the reviewer will go on to another accommodation unit.

These reviews are not woth the paper they’re printed on. I give much more credence to the consensus of acual buyers here. The only thing I take seriously in Stereophile are the loudspeaker measurements. These can correlate with what you might actually hear.

just a word to the wise on getting too caught up in dac architectures as a proxy for what a unit sounds like - it is 100% a fool's game

there are r2r dacs that are forward, there are delta sigma dacs that are absolutely pure and musical sounding, there are dacs using both/either methods that sound dull and lifeless

there are so many elements to the design of a lovely sounding dac BEYOND the actual d/a conversion tech within... sooo many

i have 4 wonderful dacs currently, they all present music absolutely beautifully, if somewhat differently - chord m-scaler/hugo tt2 (fpga/solid state), weiss 501 (delta sigma/solid state), audio note kit 4.1 (r2r/tube), mojo mystique v3 (r2r/solid state) --- each handily outperform others with d/s, r2r, fpga engines that i have owned and moved on from

i repeat - you CANNOT and should not conclude what a dac will sound like by just the technology employed for the d/a conversion...

I stream Qobuz with Magna Mano via I2S to Denafrips Venus. Very nice clean and detailed sound.

First whomever said R2R DACs are the flavor of the month is completely wrong.  We build both types of DACs  Sorekris R2R modelue and Sabre 32 Bit.  THey are differnt sounding but the R2R are not soft sounding in comparison.  They are definately more musical and less forward sounding.

Part of the problem like most is that you are swapping out DACs they are similiar in design.  To design a componnet that either is tube versus non-tube is the first question.  The most important design feature is the power supply.  We build DACs that have 30lb power supplys for our tube designs.  That is where you get the main differnce in sound.  That is where you begin to get reference sound from.

Stop looking at one feature of any component and begin learning what makes them sound different.  How do you get a beautiful soudning mid-range, how do you get layering, who do you get a big soundstage, dimension, tone, bass definition,etc.

Happy Listening.

I had the Terminator w latest dsp board in my system for a year.  IMHO it was a very good.  Leaned sligtly on the warmer side, but detail and clarity was spot on.  

I have since gone back to an ANK 2.1 dac.....still one of the best.

Another R2R dac line that i have listened to, that is clean, detailed and neutral is Merason, both the Frerot and the DAC1 models are quite good.  They may fit the bill for your preferences.  

Ive owned alot of great dacs: chord Dave, Totaldac D1tube mkii, Lampi golden atlantic, Aqua La Scala, msb discrete with dual power supplies/prousb to name but a few. I presently have a Merason dac1 in one system and a Meitner ma3 in another. They are both exceptional performers. Amazing actually. 
 

The Merason dac1 is a flat out bargain. The ma3 at almost twice the price is better than but different from the merason. Find a place to listen. I could be happy wiith any of the aforementioned dacs but the merason and the meitner should be heard if you are in the market. Merason no mqa, meitner yes mqa however i couldnt tell you how it sounds with mqa. Peace.

This may be  out of your $5000 price range, but I would highly recommend the MSB Analog DAC and Power Base if you can find one used.  It is a fantastic R2R DAC that throws a great soundstage and a nice detailed but not harsh sound.  I was very happy with mine, and upgraded to the MSB Discrete with Premier Power Base, which is even better at a significant cost.  However, the Analog will give you a lot of that for a fraction of the cost of a new Discrete.

In true reality just look up on line 20 bits is the Actual true bits you can get ,

 anything else are guesstimates higher bit rates ,  mojo audio for-example 

explaines this well. R2R are a bit softer and good for a lot of music but not all

i use the older mastering standard the Multibit chipset which were are laser trimmed resistors on one big dac chip, like the Bricasti M3 I use 

they use the Analog devises 1955 dac chips , all linear power supplies ,and filtering, power regulation ,very well thought out.That being said which I may buy 

is their upper M1, and M1SE ,and higher stil M21,which has the Multibit, and R2R  setup as  well as differential DSD which is in all their dacs , please dedicated streamer board  option which is excellent ,and 2 less wires.

I had the Sonnet Morpheus. I ended up selling it. A friend came to the same conclusion with his. Plenty of better sounding DACs for the same or less.

Just seen this thread. I am condidreing the MOJO Audio DAC but also SW1X,  Merason and Rockna Wavelight. Not  heard any of these but extensve reading has lead me there. 

What is important though is to ignore the R2R/Delta-Sigma superiority war. It's all about the sound, right?  Also don't be mislead by units that claim to do it all. By that I mean MQA, DSD, remote volume control, a dozen different filters etc. I suggest looking for a DAC that prioritize the importance of a super power supply and short signal paths with attention paid to noise ingress. DACs that do everything are not able to meet these IMO most important conditions.

I'm quite happy with Musician Pegasus. I prefer this over a more costly upgraded mhdt orchid in my primary system. Strengths are neutrality while still retaining some warmth and much brtter bass. On the flip side there is less of that holographic space around each instrument. Both are great DACs. 

I've got a Holo May KTE DAC - didn't quite wet myself, but did replace it in my system where a DAVE + M Scaler used to be. That May into my Auris Nirvana tube amp IS nirvana! But not if you like more analytical sound....

@worldwidewholesales  have you had the chance to compare the Rockna wavelight preamp function to a good quality dedicated preamp?

How does it stack up? Please let me know

Thanks

@m-db Yes, industry accomodation pricing must be nice! There’s not much money in reviewing, however, so when you consider the overall comp package (accomodation pricing included), I understand why many reviewers do it essentially part-time.

I’ll be getting the Sonnet Morpheus and Hermes today and putting it through its paces. Even at full retail, it’s a bargain proposition if it can do what it’s purported to do. Holo/Denafrips have been getting all the attention as the best bargain R2R DACs, but when you add in a good streamer and consider how hot the used market is for them (they trade at minimal discount)...the Sonnet starts to look like the better bargain. Proof will be in the pudding.

People seem to be weting themselves over the new Holo Audio R2R DAC's. The Spring 3 KTE and May L2 or KTE are getting rave reviews. Stereophile gave them Class A reference status. 

* Quite a discussion over on PS Audio's forum site: https://forum.psaudio.com/t/holo-audio-spring-3-dac-impressions/24921/99

* This UK based review was impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhf9GpGC55w

* Stereophile: https://forum.psaudio.com/t/holo-audio-one-of-the-best-dacs-ever-john-atkinson-seems-to-think-so/22913/545

@david_ten  i hope you get your send button unstuck!  😁

as for @worldwidewholesales - i just want to see the list of the 100 dacs a/b'd and also understand their process for doing this  😉

I bought a Denafrips Ares 2 after sampling the Chord Cutest ( as good but not better IMO), the Mytech Liberty (seemed slow and slightly muddy) and the Burston Conductor ( just not my cup of tea). I have generally found my other chip based dacs a little bright and harsh in comparison to the Denafrips that includes iFi iDSD BL, now used nicely with headphones, a Marantz dac in my NA7005, and a Project dac which sounded plain awful, didn't work correctly and failed to last a day?

If you read enough of these DAC posts you may come to find that one guy

sold his Pontus for the Pogada and the next guy did the opposite.

You may like the Ayre Codex or Benchmark if detail is your thing.

Another Swiss DAC Menapaws?? (forgot name-$5k)

metaldetektor, Alex Halberstadt's Sonnet Morpheus review along with his $3K Sonore, Denafrips Iris comparison to the $1K Sonnet Hermes Digital bridge was all timely for me too. I'm looking to upgrade a Squeezebox, Metrum Acoustics Mini NOS.

For what it's worth the Stereophile reviewer and owner of a Denafrips Terminator, Halberstadt closes his review with, "I ended up buying one" [Morpheus]. Accommodation pricing? Must be nice.

Thanks, everyone, for responding to my question, and offering good suggestions. I don't think it's the case that my request for assistance was futile because no one else hears precisely the way I do and no one else can know precisely what it is I'm after. I actually find it very helpful to have the advice and experiences others share. In this case, the information I found most valuable (I'm not suggesting everyone else should find it as valuable) are the comments suggesting that I should not look to affect sound quality by changing DACs (unless, I presume, my current DAC is obviously deficient, which it is not). I'm sure I could hear noticable improvements from other DACs that I have yet to hear). But, like most, I don't want to spend twice as much to get a few percent improvement. I might still spring for a new DAC down the road. If I do, as always, it will be an experiment.

I never buy by technology. It is always in the implementation.

Bingo.  As i point out i once desigend three circutis - one tube, one BJT one FET.  They all had the same baic sound (except of coruse whne the tube on had a challenging load).

Things like the type of chip/chipset are far less deterministic than you might think.

When they have a "sound" it is often becuse everyone copied the same datasheet, so the implementationis the same. Not kidding.

Please remember "it is easy to build a system that can play music but very difficult to build a system that is musical".

+2

Charles 

Finally:

- Don’t focus on the component...focus on the whole: the system, your room, and your own experience.

- Don’t worry about getting it wrong. You are learning. Learning is priceless. The payoff is waiting for you in your future.

We are not you. We do not have your experience. We do not have your system chain. We do not have your room. You get the picture...

My first cent, don't give up on R2R DACs because of your experience with one.

My second cent, be open to all DAC designs...by this I mean delta-sigma versions.