Dedicated CD Transport vs DAC

Hi aolmrd1241,

You are so awesome, looking out for me 

That looks like it would certainly fit the bill, but I really want it to be in the black finish to go with the rest of my gear.

Probably sounds fickle, but spending this kind of money... I want what I want, lol.

Thanks again for the tip, though!

Best wishes,

Don

Hi Don…maybe this will work for you! Nice price…😁

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650151236-jays-audio-cdt3-mk3-transport/

Hi Mark,

Thank you for the heads-up.  I actually did notice that one a couple of days ago, but I truly appreciate you sharing the link with me as I don't check every day.

I'm going to be passing on that one.  As I look closely at the pictures in the ad, it just doesn't seem to be in as nice of condition as I would like it to be.  

Thanks again and best wishes to you,

Don

Hi Don…this might be of interest to you…

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650148749-jays-audio/

@kennyc Yes, I agree 100% in that there seems to be a great selection of affordable dacs that have excellent sonics at the moment.  The key is trying to audition them in your system to see which one will be synergistic with your system and sonic goals.

Thankfully, if willing to buy new, there are some companies that will allow you an in home trial for a period of time and if you are not in love with it, you can return for a partial refund.

I am currently in the process on trying to find the best dac that will suit my needs at a price that I can afford and then will purchase a new cd transport that I believe will mate best with the dac.

I appreciate you mentioning the Teac.  That has been one that has been mentioned to me on a couple of occasions, which tells me that it certainly would be worthy of consideration.

Thank you for taking the time to post on this thread.

Best wishes,

Don

@no_regrets - You’re fortunate, over the last ~5yrs there have been great strides in DAC sonics at more affordable prices.  If you like to spin CDs, best to get a better transport if within budget.

TEAC VRDS-701T CD transport Is another option.  

1) Which accounts for the most sonic improvement? A quality dedicated CD Transport or a Quality DAC?

 

2) If a person could assign a percentage... by what % did your cd transport improve your sound? By what % did your new dac improve your sound?

A manufacturer of a high caliber who knows how to make a top notch sacd/cd transport will also know how to produce a top quality dac. It is their integration of the two and optimization of signal paths, etc that makes it sound immaculate.

You may think that you can do a better job than the high caliber manufacturers... mixing/matching the different transports, dacs and wires made of magicdustium. You may think a lot of things and imagine yourself to be some type of audio master chef/sound master....but, you may not succeed. The regular guy sitting at home just doesn’t have knowledge/expertise on the nitty gritty like the manufacturers do. Nevertheless, some will need to spend tens of thousands before they admit defeat (such failed adventures begin to show up on the marketplace).

The dac in my Denon DCD-1700NE sacd player is pretty good. I had tried running it through my Gustard R26 dac via a coaxial digital connection. I tended to prefer the dac in the Denon. I have several digital cables (XLO Ultra, Harmonic Technology, Morrow). On a whim, I bought an Acoustic Zen mc2 coaxial cable.  I didn't expect much, but I found a used cable for a good price.  With this cable, the sq is very close to streaming. I had considered buying a dedicated transport, but I don't think I'll bother now. If I do, it would be something like the Shanling with a USB digital output. I can rip cds with my Innuos Zen Mk3, so having the ultimate cd player is not a huge priority. 

Both are critical. For ~ 3 years I had a Audiolab 6000CDT (MSRP $599) which I THOUGHT I WAS HAPPY WITH- except for missing bass, but I only paid $300 used. It was connected to my Audio Alchemy DDP-1+ PS 5. Eventually I thought about either upgrading the DCA/Pre or replacing the CDT. Thankfully, I opted to replace the transport with a Shanling ET3 ($729): it exposed great sound hiding in my DAC/Pre. In a word THRILLED

31,100 LPs and 16,100 CDs. Like both formats. Upgraded from a $500 Topping D70s DAC to a $25,000 Lampizator Poseidon at 70X the price. About 20%+ better in openness, separation, dynamics, etc.). Sonically, not that far apart.

Jay’s Audio $5K CDt3 Mk3 transport Best friend is using his Topping above with a Schitt Urg at $1,200. Very impressive.

I tried many CD players under $5K. Not comparable. Maybe there are equally good CD players but at higher prices as well.

Unfortunately, I found out 25+ years later that digital reproduction at my analog level costs about the same or more.

I sense the future for Digital, as the new holy grail to be discovered, is the consistent accuracy of the Master Clock being used.

This is an area where a commercial entity has already made an impact with add on devices to be used in the Signal Path of a Digital Source. As a surmise, the ass on device in the digital signal path, is possibly becoming a similar supporting device as a Phonostage is to a Cartridge.

A Master Clock is pretty much a design to produce a Crystal Oscillation for a Chip at 10MHz, where there is a need for an optimised environment to operate the Chip to  be able to consistently function at the 10MHz Frequency.

This lends itself to both commercial designs such as OXCO (Most Common used in the Models being discussed) or DOXCO ( Not too sure if this is used in a Branded Audio Device at present) Not many Brands are making a point of showing which method is used to control the Environment the Chip is working in.

The next area for creating the ideal environment is DIY, there are some interesting methods being adopted, to produce an improved OXCO or even a DOXCO equivalent. As well as treat unwanted energy transferral from the Ambient Environment within the listening room, that can be detrimental to the Crystal Oscillation. 

I can easily see myself becoming a proponent of methods being used and happily adopt the ideas being used by the DIY designs.    

What I would think is if you already have a high quality external Dac, why pay for another Dac that is probably has some restrictions or at least design/ cost considerations built in with a new CD player.

Transports are very basic to me. Once you get a decent one in the $3000 range you should be all set. The rest of your sound is all in the DAC.

Hi Mark,

A big thank you again for your very detailed response!

Clearly, you have experienced a great many of digital’s finest gear. 
It’s great to hear you speak so highly the CDT3mk3 and it helps me feel that it would provide a solid foundation for whichever dac I would end up with now or in the future.  

I agree 100% in not spending more than what you’re comfortable with…hence the reason I’m not looking at $10k transports.  Very sage advice!

Thanks again, very much appreciated!

Best wishes,

Don

Since you like vynil onother options is get new SACD player that you can afford. Marantz Ruby SACd player for the price it very good. Only problem they don’t have good tech support after warranty.

Don,

I bought from Alvin because he helped me along the way with all of my inquiry’s... and besides... I prefer going straight to the source. I’m sure Todd would be fine too.

I have used EAD and PS Audio transports in the past and my Luxman D10x as a transport just prior to purchasing the Jays.

Along the way I have owned Denon,Electrocompaniet,Wadia and the Luxman cd player as well. I think I have a good feel for transports and their contributions as a whole and the Jays is top notch in my book!

I really can’t assume what you may or may not like in your own system... so your choice can be yours only! But if I had to bet the farm on it... the Jays would be a much better transport than the Rotel without question.

I would also not advise you to spend any amount of money if you are not comfortable doing so.

Mark

I would have thought dac in the past. My vinyl rig limited to a rega rp8 so I guess an alright medium quality rig going into vertere stage.

a few years back I bought a project rs2 transport which suddenly took CD to a level on par with my vinyl. I swapped my chord dac for matching rs2 dac connected by IS2 (hdmi) which allows dac to reclock the transport. 
 

straight away it was a no need to mess anymore. The dac also has ability to have valves in the chain but my Luxman class an amp and tannoy speakers bring enough lushness to the game not to bother. I think the cd player top end from marantz/luxman might be simpler but efficient alternatives.

@aolmrd1241 

Hi Mark... no worries, I completely understand.

I just wanted to take a quick moment to say "thank you" for sharing your experiences with me about your new cd transport!

You had mentioned that you ended up buying it new directly from Alvin Chee. Do you think that there are any pros or cons buying directly from Alvin vs the US dealer Todd at Tek Audio in Texas? 

Todd said that he doesn't keep these in stock at his location in Texas, but simply has the unit dropped shipped directly to the customer. It appears the price is the same either way. Just curious if I am missing anything?

It sounds like the CDT3mk3 is an absolutely fantastic transport! I'm curious what other transports you've had the pleasure of having, just for comparison sake?

Either way, I would have to believe that the Jay's would be a monumental improvement over me using my old vintage Rotel 955AX cd player as a transport. Do you think I would I be wrong in that assumption?

I just got done paying $4000 for my new LTA Aero Dac and now considering spending another $5000 right out of the gate is giving me a little bit of pause, especially if it won't net a significant gain in sonics. I'm not the wealthiest man... it takes me time to save up the cash for these purchases, lol.

In any case, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with me! 
Best wishes to you, 

Don

Hey Don… I can’t reply to your PM because I refuse to register my financial details just to message members here!

Thank you Mark. It's great to know that you didn't have to worry about import duty taxes or the like!

Best wishes,

Don

Don… After exchanging a few emails with Alvin Chee of Beatechnik I purchased direct from him. The price listed on his site is what the total cost is…

Hi Mark,

Wowza, that is certainly some very high praise for the CDT3mk3🤩

I truly appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts with me about this!

You certainly have me very excited for this transport.  

Did you buy it directly thru China, or thru the USA rep in Texas?

Did you have to pay shipping or taxes or import duty taxes?

Thank you so much!

Best wishes,

Don

Judging by the quality of Jays subsidiary LHY  Network switch and OCK 2 clock I would say the Jays is a safe bet.   Those two products are built like a tank.  Fully CNC billet case.   Really high quality connectors.  Definitely changed my mind about what some of these Chinese brands are capable of.  

@aolmrd1241 

Hello!  
Congratulation's on the new CDT3Mk3. 

How do you think it sounds compared to other transports you may have had?

Which dac are you using with it?

Which digital output are you using?

Im excited for you and hoping to hear more from you about it!

Best wishes to you,

Don

I recently purchased the CDT3 MKIII you speak of…it has been burning in…and worth every penny!!! 

@oddiofyl 
Thank you for your reply!

I think I have read that using an external clock can really step up the sound of the Teac; not that the Teac is bad sounding on its own.  In fact, I have been given the impression that most transports will benefit from using an external clock. 
 

The only transport that I have read about, so far, that hasn’t shown an improvement by using an external clock, is the Jay’s CDT3Mk3. It appears that the internal clock is of reference quality already.  But, that transport costs $5000.  
 

Thank you for sharing your experiences with me!

Best wishes,

Don

Don,

I had a Mutec MC3+USB reclocker / master clock that I bought for my Aurender's USB out.   That device can accept and distribute 10m and word clock .   The Mutec 10m ref clock is $$$ so I thought for now I would try the LHY OCK-2  by Jay's Audio.  It's really well built and can output sine or square wave at 50 or 75 Ohms so it's pretty flexible.   

The Teac clock is 50 Ohm sine wave but the 701t can accept either.   I've been super busy so I haven't done as much listening as I hoped but so far I think I prefer the square wave, there is a difference.    

@soix  It would seem that we may have similar tastes with us both having AZ cabling and LTA products 

I appreciate you bringing up the DDC as an option and sharing the link for the Denafrips Hermes with me as well.  I'll have to try and learn more about that as a possible option.

Thanks again and best wishes,

Don

Strange the LTA has balanced out but no balanced in. That would be a more optimal choice if it did!

Thanks for your thoughts on the LTA and not surprised it sounds great. I’ve also got a full loom of AZ cables so we’re definitely on the same page there. I also have an LTA MZ2 pre (with upgraded LPS) and know what you mean about their stuff not sounding overly “tubey.” The positive traits are there but just doesn’t scream tubes, which is what I really like about it and exactly why I bought it.

Anyway, I forgot to mention another cheaper option that would be to get DDC to improve the performance of your Rotel rather than buying a whole new transport. I bought a used DDC to try it out and kept it because it produced very significant improvements. Here’s a Denafrips Hermes that I believe you can return if it doesn’t transform the performance of your Rotel — my guess is it would with its excellent OCXO clock. Just another option again FWIW.

https://tmraudio.com/components/d-a-converters/denafrips-hermes-ddc-d-d-converter-4/

@facten My apologies! I think I may have miss understood what you were saying about the optimization of one output vs the others. Totally my bad.

I was thinking that they optimize just one output; meaning the remaining output’s would not sound good. So, in other words, don’t bother with that transport if you can’t use the optimized output.

Im sorry I misunderstood, but appreciate you helping me understand better!

Yes, the Aero may indeed limit some people due to the relatively few inputs that it has. However, based on what I have heard from it so far, I’m enjoying what it’s doing with the RCA input 👍

Best wishes,

Don

@no_regrets - I can'y give you the whys and wherefores as to why transports may have optimized outputs but for instance my SimAudio 260DT is optimized for AES/EBU. I got that 1st hand from SimAudio. I also read that for instance the top of the line Project is as well; certainly there are others. I don't see how any transport that has multiple outputs limits their market by optimizing one; the rest aren't poor sounding just not optimal.

If anything the LTA Aero potentially doesn't allow users to match it with the best capabilities of a transport because of its limited inputs.

@soix

Hi,

I’ve only had it for a week so I only have very initial impressions at the moment.
Also keep in mind that I have only used my vintage Rotel 955AX as a transport.

I bought the Acoustic Zen Absolute “copper foil” true 75 ohm digital cable terminated in RCA. You can buy it at the Cable Company for $552. My whole system is loomed with AZ Absolute cables and to my ears do a great job.

My early impressions of the LTA is very positive!

It uses tubes, but the sound isn’t what I think most people would consider “tubey”.
I feel that many people might stereotype a tubed product to sound warm, with limited dynamics, slow or sluggish, thick or sryupy with mushy bass, etc. 

This dac is dynamic! Both in the micro and macro sense of the word.

It’s fast! It’s not slow or sluggish or mushy… not in the least!

The tonal qualities are outstanding! I’ve been a musician for 50 years playing tenor and bass trombone in jazz venues and my Montagnana cello in classical venues. Although I can no longer play at a professional level due to my strokes, I hear live acoustic music several nights a week. I feel that I know and understand the tone of instruments. I can easily discern the difference between Bach and King brass instruments; or between Steinway and Yamaha grand pianos, etc.

Listening to brass instruments, the sound is pure! It’s dynamic, it’s got density and weight to the sound without being thick.

Listening to Art Blakey playing the drums… my God! He can hit those toms and you can feel it! You sense the skin on the snare and the shimmer of the brass symbols is amazing!

Piano has great transient attacks but you hear the sound board beautifulness in the grand piano! Hearing all the fine details of the creaking of the piano bench.

Don’t even get me started on the sound of the acoustic bass! The fullness and resonance of the wooden body, but again, not sounding thick or muddy. Hearing the plucking of the strings or the bow gliding across the strings.

I am impressed with this dac. What surprised me is how good it sounds being driven by my lowly vintage Rotel cd player. Hence my sincere questions about, does a dedicated cd transport really make a significant difference in the sound?

I remember listening to a YouTube video where the reviewer had an $11,000 Ayon and couldn’t hear a significant difference from using a $40 Best Buy cd player as a transport. He was embarrassed and ashamed of his preconceived notions that the Ayon would wipe the floor, but it didn’t.

In any case , I trust the comments of my fellow forum members over a random YouTube video.

Best wishes,

Don

What are your impressions of the LTA DAC so far (I’m gonna guess it doesn’t suck)?  It’s clear a better transport can make a significant difference, and using a lesser one on a good DAC is like putting budget all-season tires on a Porsche.  Likewise, the digital cable also matters a lot, and at your level I wouldn’t spend less than $200 on one and up to $600 new.  Here’s a very good one (read reviews) at a nice discount if you’re in the market…

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649210067-acoustic-zen-mc2-digital-cable/

Jay’s and Teac are obvious choices, but if your wallet’s still hurting from the LTA I’d definitely see if you can get a Shanling ET3 with a return policy as it’s getting very positive reviews and is much less expensive.  Either way, I wouldn’t cheap out on the transport (or digital cable) with a good DAC.  Just my $0.02 FWIW.

I would also say DAC first, but transport also is very important...I also was not happy with my OPPO as a transport...agree digital cable also important as it's really a digital system you're putting together...and then there are power cords...some here always try to get others to stop playing CD's, which to me is very poor advise...and yes I enjoy streaming and have 3 streamers...

The better the DAC and transport usually the better.But not always. Dac and transport if you can match them with the right cabling and in your system, you will get 3D and good macro and micro dynamics.my Ares denafriifs and Yamaha s1000 with the wrong digital cable they won’t give me 3D , when I tried using my Audioquest diamond ic . It gave me 3D and dynamics.Gear can’t do it alone, you have to keep on trying different cables till you get what you want.By the way Iam using marigo apparition digital cable used.

@mesch 

Hello!

Yes, I did purchase a new LTA Aero Dac. 
I’m currently using and old Rotel 955AX cd player as a transport via it’s rca digital out. 
Im now trying to ascertain if spending another $2500 to $5000 on a dedicated cd transport will garner a “significant” improvement in sound and be worth the cash outlay.  
 

Best wishes,

Don

@oddiofyl Hello and thank you for your post!

It’s great to know that you are hearing a much better sound from your new Teac vs the Oppo as a transport… that there is no comparison!

That helps give me more faith in replacing my old Rotel 955ax with a dedicated cd transport.  

Im curious, are you using an external clock in addition to the Teac transport?

Thank you and best wishes,

Don

@facten  Hello and thank you for your post!

How does a manufacturer optimize one digital output over another?

Why wouldn’t they want all digital outputs to sound great?

I would think that by only optimizing one output you would be limiting your market base?

Best wishes,

Don

I completely sold out to digital in 1989 and as time progressed, so did the quality of the CD playback I bought.  Sometime in the late '90s I was listening to three pieces of digital separates  (Rega transport, Genesis Time Lens, Muse Model 2 DAC) and about three or four years ago I took another plunge and bought a Maranzt SA10.  This is the best CD playback I have owned yet, and depending upon the quality of the disc I am playing pack, I am highly satisfied.  

I’m using a Vecteur L.4 cd player as transport through a great coax cable into an Audio Note Kit 3.1 DAC that was prebuilt but retubed by me.

Recently I purchased an Arcam CD5 transport because of the terrific reviews ("great with vocals" "great sense of space" "great bass punch" et cetera). And I wanted to see how the new Arcam compared to the 20+ year-old Vecteur.

Wow, after doing an A/B, I was SHOCKED at how anemic and thin the Arcam sounded compared to the Vecteur. Putting it into automotive terms, the difference was as substantial as comparing an old Volkswagen Beetle (the new Arcam!) to a new BMW (the old Vecteur!). The naturally airy lushness and warm musicality of the Vecteur completely outperformed the Arcam.

So, I would agree with facten above that transports can make a HUGE difference. I would also encourage you to get high quality and well-reviewed after-market cables and vibration dampeners. I’ve found that each component I’ve upgraded has opened up the sound, making it more natural and "magical."

DAC is the heart of the modern system.

@glennewdick No question that the DAC is more important however if you have had a decent transport and then swapped in a better transport the impact is quite noticeable and shouldn’t be discounted 

In my experience, a better transport will simply extract more data from the disc. How much improvement YOU will hear, I can’t say. Consider the fact that the transport is first in the chain. 

With DACs, the sky’s the limit. The good news is that it’s not necessary to spend near as much on the transport. Buy something like a Jay’s CDT2MKIII and you’ll be set, no matter which DAC you end up with.

Assuming you mean a CD player and not "quality dedicated CD Transport " as Transports do not have much of a sound on their own as they do not have a DAC in them.  

From my experience if the Transport is decent enough not to put errors or other anomalies on the output then the DAC is the go-to place for sound quality.  

I f you have a good CD player or transport now, upgrading the DAC will be the largest improvement in sound quality. Do not skimp on a DAC cheap ones will not get you close to your vinyl rig. Good ones will get you there or beyond. 

I thought you purchased the LTA Areo DAC?  Aren't you also interested in the Jay's CD2MK3?

DAC , absolutely but I just added a Teac VRDS 701T and it is much better sounding as the OPPO 103 I was using.   No comparison.    The OPPO sounded small and closed in , the Teac sounds huge with tons of detail.    Not subtle.