DAC Shootout Starts This Weekend

Okay....new DACs have arrived.  The first unit I am going to write up is the AGD Adante.  Coming soon will be the Modwright UDP 205 and Soul Note D-2.  I know the modwright isn't available new anymore but it deserves a mention given how engaging it is.  

The AGD Adante is, in fact, a full preamp with DAC and Phono Stage built in.  The DAC is a 24bit R2R and there is an on-board player function.  The on-board player was Roon Ready but with Roon Ready certification (in 2021), Roon's new rules are incompatible with the hardware in the Adante.  You can stream hi-res via Mconnect or any other UPnP/DLNA software.  

Talking to Alberto, the owner of AGD, he strongly suggested that the unit is far better than its price point of $12.5K as a DAC.  I doubted this and expected that it would be a $5-$7K DAC in a very good preamp and it would fall short of the excellence one expects from the Bricasti M1, Weiss 501, Chord Dave, etc....  I was wrong.  This unit would be at the top end of performance in that price range and is really more comfortable paired against the Playback Designs MPD-6 or the Rockna Wavedream Signature.  

Detail performance vs. the Weiss is similar.  The Weis is an incredibly detailed DAC that delivers a surprising levels of nuance and detail with solid staging.  It is brighter than neutral and can be a hair cold in the wrong system.  It's preamp stage is good but a hair limited in terms of volume control.  The biggest advantage is the ability to attenuate output to ensure good matching to a power amp.  

The Adante is not even a hair bright.  It is what one expects from an R2R and is neutral to a hair warm.  The unit shocked me by delivering as much detail as the Weiss.  But it is also not terribly laid back.  There is a good balance tonally.  

Staging is large.  It lacks the raw scale in terms of height and width of the Rockna Wavedream Signature but delivers a very large image and has great depth.  It may lack the depth and stability of the Chord Dave in terms of image between the speakers but has excellent depth.   

Taken as a whole, this is an extremely well balanced DAC that is maybe not the very best in any one way, is better in some ways than most of the other units.  In terms of tonality and raw performance, it is probably closest to the Playback MPD-6.  In terms of actual performance on individua songs, the MPD-6 is better in some ways and Adante in others but it is probably its closest competitor.  If you read some recent reviews of the Adante, a reviewer said it even compared favorably vs. the ever so popular Mola Mola.  My hunch is that this excellence is being driven by the true preamp stage.  

Regarding performance on our test songs, the drum rolls on In a Sentimental mood are crisp with good separation but natural.  Bass is plucky and clean and there is good air around the cymbals.  Piano has sparkle.  Overall sound is slightly less forward than the Playback.  

Be Still My Beating Heart sounds massive.  It didn't occur to me to even think about sibilance in Stings voice till nearly the end of the track.  Just not relevant with this DAC.  Noise floor is very low.  Bells are very real sounding.  Images were coming from behind me at certain points.

Liberty has incredible detail.  The FX are detailed and coming from space, not the speakers.  Her voice is forward without sibilance.  There is energy in the highs while the sax sounds sweet and engaging.  

Duende is perfect.  The opening bass solo has amazing detail without drifting into distortion.  There is a wonderful level of energy and dynamism without it drifting to fatiguing. 

In the Berg piece, separation of instruments is great and the image is well sized.  It may be a bit large and lose a touch of the intimacy but that is an expected compromise.  

The units lacks the energy and dynamism of the Jadis JS1 MKV and even the Rockna Wavedream Signature but it delivers a certain truth and sweetness that cuts through in a very positive way.  

This unit basically exceeded my expectations in almost every way.  If you are in this price range, this is a must listen.  

@verdantaudio 

Playback Designs MPD-6 Edelweiss DAC – Verdant Audio

Playback Designs MPD-8 Dream DAC – Verdant Audio

PLINK I/O Compatible with Classic, Sonoma, Edelweiss and Dream Series products for native digital audio transmission. Connection to Edelweiss and Dream series products via fiber optical PLINK for optimal separation between digital source and analog output stage of DAC.

Can the PLINK input take a fibre optic stream directly like the Lumin X1?

How is the volume control on the DAC? Improved with a preamp?

How good is the preamp part of the MPD-8 ?

Could this drive Audionet Heisenberg Monoblocks without any frustration ?

@yyzsantabarbara i know they will accept a direct fiber input from native Playback devices.  They have their own sources.  I will ask Andreas if it is possible for the DACs to receive a fiber signal from another source.  
 

@thieliste preamp stage and volume control in both units are very good.  I have found that it has worked well with both pairs of my monos (CANOR and Art Audio) along with the stereo amps (AGD, Rogue and Carver) I have lying around.  
 

That said, I have never heard a DAC output stage that compares to my Art Audio or CANOR preamps.  They just sound better.  It will do the job without frustration, yes.  Will it be the absolute be all, end all in terms of match, unlikely. 

Wow what no responses since 11/14/2022?

Anyways I have received my playback mpd-6 and it is an absolute joy. Truly an endorphin pumping machine.

I have had in my past:

1. chord dave

2. holo may

3. benchmark dac

4. sagra

I like the mpd6 the most and the previous dacs I owned are listed above in order of my preference. I generally prefer the detailed but still very enjoyable type of sound which as well all know it is usually trading one for the other in either direction.

As of now, though it costed a partial arm and leg, no regrets and smiling ear to ear on a daily basis.

Scott can you chime in if you ever come across this the differences between Weiss 501 and MPD6? My second choice behind the MPD6 would have been the Weiss based on what was read.

Thank you.

@f208frank Congrats on the DAC. How are you streaming to it? I have a PLink streamer but no Playback Desings DAC 😀 so I have no clue how the PLink sounds.

I use a K50 from antipodes, I was considering the plink streamer but also felt in a way I am boxing myself to this combination where as the K50 can be a little more versatile. I should mention that already having the K50 prior to mpd6 played a big role in the decision as well.

It is a wonderful dac.

I may be able to listen to a Playback Designs Merlot DAC.  Has anyone compared the older Merlot DAC to the latest designs from Playback Designs, the Edelweiss or Dream?

Yes.  Not in the same league.  It drifts a hair brighter.  The image is smaller and the level of detail is not quite in the same league.  Very simply, the output stage can’t deliver the way the MPD-6 or MPD-8 can.  That being said, you know it is from the same company.  

So...I have been in the process of re-basing our DAC knowledge base as the system has finally been forced to change.  Very simply, the Vivid Kaya 45s are sold and with that departure, I figured I ought to move to my new reference system for purposes of testing.  

Basically, I am relistening to DACs in the new system.  I did some of this before the departure of the Vivids and moved the DAC to the new system.  I am no longer an official Vivid dealer.  Vivid moved to a new distributor and they have rules within their distribution agreement I am 100% sure I am going to want to break.  Rather than violate the dealer agreement, I figured we would part ways and be friends.  If they change their rules, I would be happy to pick the line up again

So....the new system consists of Wilson Benesch Discovery 3Zeros, a Canor Hyperion P1 Preamp, Virtus M1 Mono-Blocks and the source is the Antipodes Oladra server.  This is a bit more esoteric but tonally it is VERY similar to AVM and Vivid which was set up side-by-side as a comparison. It is just radically superior in terms of staging, detail and holography.  ICs and SCs are Inakustic 2404 and all power cables are Puritan Ultimate XX and it is routed through a Puritan 1512. The room is treated with Vicoustic diffusers, wall panels and bass traps.  

This is a system and room that have been optimized together so I should be able to extract every drop of performance from each DAC. The re-basing process is done and I look forward to writing up new Units.  Two will follow shortly for the Soulnote D-2 and the Lumin X1.

So the Lumin X1 came in to me from a friendly dealer who has one and allowed me to spend some time with it.  

The X1 is a hefty unit with an outboard power supply, has a built-in volume control and is a full-fledged streamer with Lumin producing its own software.  It retails at $14K. Given this unit is a full streamer with volume control, my feeling is that it is more appropriate to compare to the ~$10K DACs rather than the price point above.  

I swapped the unit in place of my everyday DAC (the Playback Designs MPD-6) and let it run.  The DAC has been used and is burnt in so just a matter of warm-up and letting things get settled.  

Opening track of In a Sentimental Mood - piano has good sparkle.  Drum rolls lack absolute definition of Weiss or Rockna Edition but detail is very good. 

On Be Still My Beating Heart, it is obvious that the X1 is a bit brighter/more forward than the Playback meaning it is probably a touch forward overall.  That said (based on notes) it is MUCH less bright than the Lumin T2.  The forwardness is present in staging but does not come through in terms of sibilance.  The sound stage is big and deep.  It extended well beyond the outside of the speakers.  Noise floor is very low.  When there should not be noise, there is no noise.  

Liberty is the same.  Forward but not sibilant. effects come from where they should, well beyond the boundaries of the speakers.  

Duende is superb.  Opening bass notes are clear and undistorted.  Dynamics are big.  String separation is fabulous on the berg piece.  There is nothing not to like.

This unit is extremely competitive in the $10K price range.  Compared to the MPD-6, the image is just smaller, has less depth and a hair less detailed.  Given the Playback, comparably equipped with on-board streamer is $18K, this should be the case.  

What surprised me most is how similar this unit sounds to another DAC I have on hand - the Soulnote.  But more on that in the write up of the Soulnote

@verdantaudio You should try the X1 USB stream out to the MPD-6 to compare the streaming abilities of the X1 to the PLink (which I assume you use on the MPD-6). The streamer on the X1 is really good, especially using Fibre Optic as an input. I still have not heard my PLink which is sitting under my desk.

I use my X1 as a SPDIF streamer to the Peachtree GAN1 (that you tested) and also as a XLR analog output to my RAAL VM-1a headphone amp. In both cases, it is a great result with a very advanced forward-looking user interface.

My GAN1 is not the stock version you heard; it is a modded version that I think is as good as my X1 going into a my 2-channel amps.

@yyzsantabarbara - so, I can test the X1 output.  I am not using PLink.  Just USB vs Ethernet.  I did AB testing with the X1, the Soulnote and the MPD-6.  I had two of the three connected to my preamp at at time.  Both connected to my Oladra, X1 via Ethernet direct connect and the other DAC (Playback or Soulnote) via USB.  
 

the Soulnote and the X1 sounded VERY similar.  The MPD-6 is a clear step forward in virtually every way, even using an inferior connection.  It sounds bigger, more detailed and more holographic than the X1.  The soundstage had more depth and height/width.  The X1 is excellent.  The MPD-6 is just better.  
 

@verdantaudio Which Soulnote do you have and does it have an outboard clock? The website has a model 1, 2, and 3, and some require an outboard clock to function.

While you have the X1 in the house you should hear the Fibre Optic input instead of the Ethernet RJ45. I take a Fibre stream directly from my Ubiquiti network switch.

I had the Lumin D-2, U-1 mini, A-2 and X-1.  I thought the X-1 was the best DAC I had heard under $18k.  I purchased a Lampizator Pacific and at first there was very little difference between the two.  Tube Rolling does come into play here.  I now have the Lampizator Horizon and will be going to an Aries Cerat Kassandra 2 Reference.  

@willgolf 

”I now have the Lampizator Horizon and will be going to an Aries Cerat Kassandra 2 Reference.”

NICE! 

@willgolf 

” I thought the X-1 was the best DAC I had heard under $18k.  I purchased a Lampizator Pacific and at first there was very little difference between the two. “

Most interesting Will , I assume that you havn’t posted that consideration over on WBF where you would be burnt alive at the stake.

@klh007 I have the D-2.  You can add an external 10MHz Clock but it is not required.  The D-3 requires the clock but is $30k combined and in completely difference class of DACs. 
 

@yyzsantabarbara i will try but I don’t have gear here for the fiber setup and this unit is for sale at a sharp price and could go any minute. 
 

@willgolf I like the X-1 very much.  I think that says a lot since I am not a Lumin dealer.  That said, I think it is quite competitive in the $10k range (Bricasti, Weiss, Chord, Rockna Edition, Soulnote ) and preference for it is a matter of taste.  I would say it is a clear step down from the Rockna Signature, Playback, Jadis and Aries Cerat, three of the five units are under $18k.  That said, I hear wonderful things about the Horizon and I am planning to buy in and become an Aries Cerat dealer any day now so I get it. 

@verdantaudio,

Christiaan Punter at hifi-advice.com very recently did highly favorable reviews on Playback Designs MPS-X and then later on MPD-6.  I have been a fan of his review style.  The MPD-6 in his review had the Steam-X2 option installed.   I found it very interesting that as part of the MPD-6 review he additionally tested Antipodes K50 USB and AES/EBU as well as Grimm MU1 USB to MPS-X and then PLINK to MPD-6.  He is very enthusiastic on the results doing so with the K50 (original model).  If you have MPS-X, I would be interested in reading your impressions of the K50, MPS-X, MPD-6 combo.   

 @azwill   I haven’t purchased and tested an MPS-X yet.  I have been extremely happy with K50 before and now Oladra performance with my Playback.  I would be unsurprised if the MPS-X takes it up a level.  The only challenge is that you do need a server to feed the MPS-X if you are going to run Roon. 
 

I find USB vs AES conflicting with antipodes.  Most of the time I prefer AES and send DSD via DOP and it is fine.  With Playback, USB is preferred for DSD.  This DAC really excels at DSD so I find myself really liking USB more with this one unit.  

Okay, regarding the Soulnote D-2. I brought this unit in having never heard a Soulnote product but multiple people had said it is THE brand and in a year, it will be noteworthy.

So, it arrived quickly. It is heavy. The box is over 40 lbs. Unit looks nice with a brushed aluminum finish and wood (ash maybe) sides. The unit retails at $9000 and is fully, differentially balanced. So I dropped the unit into my system, plugged it in with AES and it was...okay. So, I took it out of the system and attached it to a secondary system and let it play for three weeks. I put it back into the system. It sounded much better.

There are several filters on the synchronous connections including a NOS filter which I thought sounded best. I typically hate NOS DACs so this was a surprise. After reading the manual, I decided to swap to USB and all of a sudden this unit came to life. I swapped this in for the Playback and got the X1 in while I was testing.

Opening track of In a Sentimental Mood - piano has good sparkle. Drum rolls lack absolute definition of Weiss or say the Chord Dave.

On Be Still My Beating Heart, it is obvious that the Soulnote is a bit brighter/more forward than the Playback meaning it is probably a touch forward overall. That said it is not close to as bright as say the Weiss. The forwardness is present in staging but does not come through in terms of sibilance. The sound stage is big and deep. It extended well beyond the outside of the speakers. Noise floor is very low. When there should not be noise, there is no noise.

Liberty is the same. Forward but not sibilant. effects come from where they should, well beyond the boundaries of the speakers.

Duende is superb. Opening bass notes are clear and undistorted. Dynamics are big. String separation is fabulous on the berg piece. There is nothing not to like.

This unit is extremely competitive in the $10K price range. Incidentally, I was writing up my notes on X1 not long after I wrote this and discovered they were very similar. So similar that I decided to do some more testing. I decided I would connect both at the same time and see how similar they were.

Second set of XLRs was found, both DACs connected and I played the same track on both zones off the Antipodes, USB to the Soulnote and Ethernet to the X1. I struggled to tell the difference. I went way beyond the standard five test tracks. On track after track, sounded very similar. I would think I was listening to one and look up and it would be the other.

Now I was doubting myself. Could they be that close? So I took out the Soulnote and connected the MPD-6. Differences were immediate and obvious. Tonally the Playback was slightly warmer, the soundstage was much deeper and the image was bigger and more detailed. Swapped out the X1 for the Soulnote. Same difference.

So I looked an unsurprisingly they use exactly the same chip. They have done something in terms of output stage to generate similar sound profiles. Really superb. If you don’t need volume control or streamer it seems like the Soulnote is an ideal option if you like Lumin’s sound.

.What I am most intrigued by is that the Soulnote allows for a 10Mhz clock to be attached and I am wondering if that will take it to the next level. I would suspect it will push this to a level that will outperform the X1.

Have the Playback streamer on order. Looking fwd to it. 

We have recently added two additional lines which is going to lead to three additional comparisons. The lines are Aries Cerat and Meitner/EMM. The first is going to be the Aries Cerat Helene which is now a permanent display item for us. My initial MA3 was purchased to go out to a customer for demo and never came back. I am waiting on a replacement and the distributor is also going to lend me a DA2 for a period.

For today though, we will talk about the Helene. The AC Helene arrived in a wood crate on a pallet jack. The unit without packaging is 80lbs. With packaging, has to be 100. I used my hand truck to roll the unit down to my basement. Fortunately I have a walk-in basement.

I opened up the unit with my cordless drill as the unit is screwed shut. It is heavy so getting the unit out is a challenge. Best if you have a second person. In fact, I would argue that a purchase of any Aries Cerat product should require a second person to be with you to unpack.

I got the unit out and quickly realized that the term "overbuilt" lost all meaning to other equipment I have owned. It borders on absurd. The top is machined stainless steel, not aluminum. Everything is solid on this unit.  Mass is a benefit in terms of absorbing vibrations and AC definitely delivers mass. 

Removal of the top for tube installation was quick and easy. I then placed the unit in my rack where it barely fits. Hooked it up. Turned it on and let it warm up.

Came back and listened and was pleasantly surprised with a very refined sound right out of the box. I then played it as much as I could for about a week. and this is my POV after maybe 60 hours of burn-in.

The Helene is immediately impressive with a massive soundstage that is deep and wide. Tonally it is neutral with extraordinary dynamics. As far as actual songs go:

In a Sentimental Mood - piano had great sparkle. Drum rolls are clean. Image extends beyond the speakers and there is minimal localization. Very energetic and dynamic.

On Be Still My Beating Heart, the image is massive extending well beyond the speakers and depth is very good with the sound coming immediately from my left and right while the image is behind the speakers dead center. Stings voice has no hint of sibilance, piano and bells sound natural and the noise floor is very low.

Liberty sounds big and natural. Effects come from well beyond the speakers. Noise floor remains low. Again, not a hint of sibilance.

Duende, opening bass solo is clean and crisp reflecting top level performance. Cymbals are airy. Plucks of the guitar are clear with great air.

Berg sounds great. No massing of strings. Image is probably bigger than it should be but that is the nature of these very big sounding DACs.

I was so impressed I decided I would do an AB comparison between it and the Playback MPS-6. I connected both units via XLR to my preamp and ran an AES and Coax out to the devices from the Antipodes.

The difference between DACs was immediate and obvious. The PBD is a hair warmer, image is the slightest bit smaller and a bit softer and less dynamic. The Playback is a bit more detailed and has a certain musicality that is simply unmatched by any other device I have heard.

I dragged my wife down and she is a HUGE fan of the Playback. To a point where I have had other DACs hooked up to the system and she asks "what is wrong" and insists I swap Playback back in.

Her favoritism toward the Playback remained here but she acknowledged that the AC is much better for her than other units I have had in.

Compared to two other units I have tested in this price range (Rockna Wavedream Signature XLR and the Jadis JS1 MKV), the AC is probably a hair less detailed than the Rockna, a bit more detailed than the Jadis. I am not sure anything can match the scale in terms of width and height of the Rockna soundstage but this sounds much deeper as the Rockna central image is relatively flat. It matches or exceeds the dynamism of the Jadis.

Everyone will have their own preferences and no DAC is completely perfect for everyone. This is in many ways the Goldilocks unit in terms of sound in the price class. I am not sure it is best in any single factor (detail, width, depth, musicality) but it is probably #2 for every factor. The net result is a really awesome and enjoyable DAC. The only major gap I see is that it does not support DSD. If you are a heavy DSD listener, there is no question that in this price tier, Playback is THE DAC.

@verdantaudio

Thanks for sharing your listening impressions of the Aries Cerat Helene DAC. Word of mouth feedback across audio forums say that it’s fantastic.

P.S.

Is there really much DSD audio/music available?

Charles

@charles1dad There are places you can download DSD files.  Some guys have tons of it and it does sound really good.  The lack of DSD support is not an issue for most consumers.  

@verdantaudio Sorry if I missed it but did you ever comment on the upgrades (V2) using the newer ESS chipset of the Weiss 501/2? The 4 channel topology has me scratching my head as to what one would use this for, and pictures I have seen only have stereo outputs so it seems confusing. But mostly I’m curious if there is any sonic benefit to the upgrade. As mentioned much earlier in the thread, the conception that newer chips are inherently better than the older versions isn’t always well placed. Thank you.  Awesome thread by the way!

@jimmy2615 i will say that I think the difference is very small.  I have had both units side by side and It is challenging.  I am not sure about the benefit of the 4 channel module and can say that the 2 channel unit remains the better seller.  

@verdantaudio I am enjoying your audio equipment impressions as I too use Liberty and Duende in my short list of test tracks!!

The Weiss 501 really appeals because the network input allow you to ditch an outboard streamer and further reduce box count.

@agisthos not only does it allow you to reduce box count, internal streamers are almost universally better than anything moderately priced in the market.  The internal I2S ensure clock synchronization making it better than most.  This has been the case with just about every brand I have heard.  

@tsushima1 

Most interesting Will , I assume that you haven’t posted that consideration over on WBF where you would be burnt alive at the stake.

Are you referring to my observation that the Pacific was not that much better than the X-1 or the fact that I am going from the Lampi Horizon to an Aries Cerat Kassandra 2?   The funny thing is once I added the Lucas Audio LDMS music server to the Pacific and for that matter the Horizon my music took a major step in SQ.  Those comments were posted in WBF.  I do get your point though.....LOL.

"internal streamers are almost universally better than anything moderately priced"

Interesting. Need more context to understand, but interested in hearing more.

Take Lumin U2 mini at $2400 or Lumin U2 at $5k. Are one or both of these "moderately priced" or were you meaning cheaper streamers than these like Holo Red?

I think he is talking about stuff like the Bluesound Node. The network renderer in the Weiss would be vastly superior in sound quality. And one less power cable, one less digital cable e.t.c 

Those are moderately priced IMO.  The onboard streamers are shockingly good.  I needed an Antipodes K50 (that equals a K22) to beat the on-board streamer in the Weiss and Bricasti. My hunch is the onboard streamer will beat a U2 Mini and be as good as a U2.  

The new Lumin U2 seems to be using the same streamer as in the Lumin X1. That streamer is pretty amazing. The settings that you have access to is incredible. I use it for both analog duty and to stream digital to my PeachTree GAN1 via SPDIF (along with amazing volume control). 

I also have Fibre Optic into the streamer and then SPDIF out. That Fibre Optic is essential in my setup (noisy). One reason I will not touch any Ethernet streamer built into a DAC.

The Sonore OpticalRendu is also incredible and is now discontinued until late summer when the new version comes out. The old OpticalRendu sounds more buttoned up compared to the wild child sound of the Lumin X1. Weird way to describe it but once you hear them side-by-side it makes sense. I love the sound of both streamers.

So I tested two more DACs recently as we have become Meitner/EMM Dealers and I have the MA3 and DA2 here.  First write up with be about the MA3 which is proving to be quite a phenomenal DAC considering its price point and feature set.  

The MA3 is an FPGA based DAC with an on-board renderer player and preamp/volume control that fully unfolds MQA.  Its closest competitors are the Weiss 501 and Bricast M1.

Regarding listening, In a Sentimental Mood had good top-end with sparkle in the piano without becoming fatiguing.  Detail in the drum rolls is very good and air around instruments in solid.  

Be Still My Beating Heart lacks the scale of Bricasti in terms of raw soundstage size but sounds without sibilance in Stings voice.  Noise floor is very low and the balanced circuitry is showing up well.

Liberty sounds great.  The sound effects are coming from outside the speakers.  There remains no sibilance in her voice and there is no glare with the saxophone.  

In Duende the air around the instruments is good, not elite.  The bass is good but overall there are some soft edges in my full tube system.  

The Berg piece sounds right size.  Great separation of strings with no glare.

Overall, this unit is a touch warm vs. neutral and is a little softer sounding than the Weiss or Bricasti.  This is not bad and would be a top choice for me to be paired with SS amps like Hegel or Chord or some OTL Tube amps like Octave.  Any system that is a little clinical could benefit from the addition of this unit.  

Big fan of the Meitner MA3, would be curious what you think of their new preamp as well as the NS1 streamer.

When I had the MA3, I only got the magic with an external pre and separate streamer.

I am 100% certain I am bringing in and am going to test the NS1 streamer.  At some point I am sure I will hear the preamp but it is not a priority.  In my system I am using the Canor Hyperion P1 preamp. 

It is rare that I hear any DAC that sounds as good with its internal pre/volume control vs. an external.  I do agree that external streamers are essential to get the most out of any DAC but the on-board streamerrs to me are better than on-board preamps.  

@verdantaudio 

I have debated pre vs no pre for two years.  I got rid of my Pre when I got my Lampi Pacific and Horizon.  I could not hear any loss of sound quality.  That said, I did order the Aries Cerat Ianus Ageto Pre.  I can't tell you why except at 69 years of age, I basically said why not.  You only live once.  

@willgolf Those are two of the DACs on my shortlist of units that are fine without a preamp.  I would also say the MSB Reference and Select would fit here, but MSB equips them with a full preamp stage.  

After that, it is preamps equipped with very good DACs like the AGD Andante or AVM Ovation SD 8.3 that I think are your best buys if you lack a preamp stage in your system.  I think the AGD is an insane value when you consider the quality of the DAC and Phono Stage in it.  

@willgolf 

"You only live once." Couldn't agree with you more. Hope that your Aries Cerat system overwhelms you with totally amazing sound. Cheers

@yyzsantabarbara can you expound on what you mean by "buttoned up" and "wild child'? I currently have an OpticalRendu and was wondering how it compares to the Lumin streamers.

"The Sonore OpticalRendu is also incredible and is now discontinued until late summer when the new version comes out. The old OpticalRendu sounds more buttoned up compared to the wild child sound of the Lumin X1. Weird way to describe it but once you hear them side-by-side it makes sense. I love the sound of both streamers."

@topside3 All 3 of my streamers were great. I have not heard the very best feature of the PlayBack Designs Streamer-IF because I do not have a PD DAC to use the PLink feature. However, the SPDIF of the IF sounded a mix in-between the Lumin X1 fibre and my Sonore OpticalRendu.

The Lumin X1 is as loud as the IF (just a gain setting I guess). It sounds the fastest on music playback. A real toe tapping experience. I loved the X1 streamer and the features on it are the best of all 3. This was very important when I wanted to stream to SPDIF to my incredible modded Peachtree GAN1. This GAN1 was as good as $20K+ gear with the Lumin X1 via SPDIF.

The OpticalRendu wsa not as loud and maybe not as fast sounding. It sounded rather refined to me compared to the other 2. The PD IF was in-between the sonics of the OpticalRendu and the X1. I think if I got the Plink hooked up (in the future) it likely will have the best streaming sound or experience. At the moment I think my OpticalRendu is my fav. Though it is like choosing between chocolate and vanilla, both are very good and a matter of taste.

I was surprised that these 3 high end streamers would have such a variety in sound. I have used lower end streamers and they do not compare to the X1 and oR in terms of details and other sonic attributes I value.

Note: I only used the X1 with a fibre input stream

Great thread, and some notes on the Lumin. I started with a D2, added a Sbooster LPS, upgraded to a T2, and most recently added the X1, keeping the T2 for a second system.

The optical input does improve the sound by taking a layer of glare away. But…it’s critical to use the right SFP modules. I chose Finisar (purchased from Mouser, as there are counterfeits sold on Amazon and EBay). Surprised at how much the sound was improved. 

Lumin’s app and settings allow lots of tweaking and it does sound better by disabling unneeded settings. You can also adjust the output gain which helps in matching to a sensitive preamp. If you use with Roon, there are settings that further improve sound quality. I do think playback via the Lumin app is a tad better than Roon but I prefer Roon’s user interface.

The tech support from Lumin, in various forums, is the best I’ve ever experienced in 30 years of owning high end gear. They regularly update firmware along with Roon and support expired products as well. 

I considered several products mentioned in this thread, along with the DCS Bartok. The Lumin’s sound quality, ease of use, and support sealed the decision.

The Ares would be fun to hear, but requiring a streamer plus the DAC puts it out of contention for me. 

Just discovered this thread, easily the most intelligent and informed comparison of DACs I’ve read in a long time (maybe ever). Thank you @verdantaudio !

I currently am using a Lumin P1, and have owned a couple of other Lumin streamers in the past. They are all great values at their price points. Looking to move up to a higher performing dac, but will definitely miss the Lumin’s streamer/dac/interface integration when I do.

@nickolaspappas  Sorry for late reply to this.  Things have been a little crazy this month.  One thought that would allow you to maintain a bit of performance is to use a Lumin U2.  I would allow you to maintain your interface while upgrading your DAC.  Eventually it will become a bottle neck but it is a pretty darn good device.

@verdantaudio 

It’d be interesting to have your views on external clocking. In my experience with Delta Sigma upsampling DACs, having an external high quality 10m reference makes a significant difference even when internal Dac’s clock is already high standard. The likes of MSB, DCM, Esoteric et al seem to agree whereas the effect on R2R dacs seems less pronounced.

And btw, the advantage when using USB extends to the connection as well as the server which is slaved to the DAC.

@antigrunge2   My experience is that anything that can be done to improve clocking between server & DAC is worth it.  I can’t speak about MSB simply because I have never had a unit in to spend lots of time with but dCS definitely and Rockna and other also benefit. Remember MSB is R2R.  
 

i am not going to say an external clock is universally essential but anytime clock synchronization can occur, jitter drops and sound quality approaches completely holographic. A great example of this is with Rockna and the I2S connection between a Wavedream and the Wavedream NET.  The sun of those parts far exceeds what you would expect to get from those two components.  When you look at the pin out, the R and L channels for the clocks are synchronized and grounded.  Although it is not an external reference, the clean synchronization of the two has a huge impact.  
 

There seem to be exceptions to this.  Upscaling DACs like Chord (PCM) and Playback and EMM Labs (DSD) do not seem to directly benefit.  Rob Watts is quite explicit that an external clock has no impact on Chord devices and both Playback and EMM work best with a fiber connection between streamer and DAC which has obvious benefits in terms of noise and clocking.  
 

There are a myriad of other exceptions, but I am a firm believer that if external clocking can be added, it is likely a very worthy upgrade.  USB especially benefits from this.  

@verdantaudio Have you had a chance to listen to the Weiss Helios DAC? I've enjoyed the DAC501 (base and 4-channel) and I'm wondering how the Helios compares to them.