Okay...in another thread I promised to do a side-by-side evaluation of the Audiobyte HydraVox/Zap vs the Rockna Wavelight. Due to the astonishing incompetence of DHL this has been delayed. At the moment, I have a plethora of DACs here and am going to do a broader comparison.
I am going to do a compare of the Rockna Wavelight, Rockna Wavedream Signature, Audiobyte HydraVox/Zap, Chord Hugo 2, Chord Hugo TT2, Bricasti M3, Bricasti M1 Special Edition, Weiss 501 and the internal DAC card for an AVM A 5.2 Integrated amp as a baseline.
For sake of consistency, I am going to use that same AVM integrated amp driving Vivid Kaya 45s. I may branch out and do some listening on other speakers (Verdant Nightshade of Blackthorn and/or Wilson Benesch Vertexes) but want to use the Vivids for every compare as they are the fullest range speakers I have here. For sake of consistency I will use a Chord 2Go/2Yu connected via an Audioquest Diamond USB as a renderer. The only exception is the Hugo 2 which has a 2Go directly attached to it. I will use a Roon Nucleus+ as a server in all cases.
My plan is to use the same five songs on every DAC; In a Sentimental Mood from Duke Ellington and John Coltrane, Be Still My Beating Heart from Sting, Liberty from Anette Askvik, Duende from Bozzio Levin Stevens and Part 1 of Mozart String Quartet No 14 in G Major from the Alban Berg Quartet. The intent is to touch on different music types without going crazy.
I will take extensive notes on each listening session and write up a POV on the strengths of each unit. I am going to start this this Friday/Saturday and will be writing things up over the next month or so. If you have thoughts, comments or requests, I will be happy to try and accommodate. The one thing I am not going to do is make the list of songs longer as that has an exponential impact on this and make everything much harder. If and when other DACs come in on trade I may add to the list through time.
@mistercrash I have the Helios here burning in. The first batch recently arrived in North America. I have listened to it initially and it sounds great. Sort of a middle ground between Playback and Aries Cerat. It is dramatically better than the 501 in the sense that everything was smoother and more analog sounding. It helps that there are 4 DAC chips per channel as opposed to 2 in the 501/502. They also have improved the output stage. I want to listen to it after it has a chance to have some hours on it though for a final opinion.
I will my write up here and we are going to begin posting to a YouTube channel videos of the DAC.
EMM Labs DA2 V2 - This is the most expensive unit I have tested to date. It is well built and has an awesome remote.
This is a big and dynamic sounding unit that has extraordinary detail. It is different than any of the other units I have heard and is very much a departure from the MA3. If I had a customer who wanted to step up from the MA3, I would steer them to Playback. This, in many ways, would be an elevation above Rockna and the Wavedream Signature.
Drum rolls in In a Sentimental Mood were clean and crisp. The overall song is big and dynamic sounding. Great sparkle on the piano. Outstanding air around cymbals.
In Be Still My Beating heart the image is deep and wide. Noise floor is extremely low. Bells sound natural. In Liberty, same kind of massive image. Effects are seemingly coming from a distance away from the speakers. no sibilance in either song.
Opening of Duende is precise and clear. No smearing in the bass solo. The song is hugely dynamic is incredible air and decay.
The intimacy of the berg piece is missing just slightly. This is an incredible, top tier DAC. It is not dramatically better than the Playback, just different. If you are looking for incredible dynamics and realism while also having totally next level DSD processing, this is THE DAC for you.
Very interesting and informative thread. Enjoyed it immensely. Was wondering if the Ayon Audio S-5 can be added to the list. I’ve been using one for 7 years.
@verdantaudioisn’t the Weiss Helios using one chip but with 8 channels? The 501 uses 2 mono chips. What would be interesting is if you could test the new 204 or 205, in general. It has an outboard power supply, presumably not an LPS. Some reviewers are touting these units as equivalent to the 500 series (in sound). The description of the 200 DACs also seems to imply it only uses one chip. Many makers (e.g. Oppo 105) used one chip with its multiple DACs run in parallel. I’m sure though that however Weiss implements its DACs sounds great.
@mikeg I have never received and Ayon product on trade and I am not an Ayon dealer. If I get one on trade I will write it up.
@jimmy2615my 204 arrived on Saturday and I will be writing up an evaluation of it. You are right that the Helios is using an 8 channel chip with 4 channels of processing dedicated to left and right channels. The 501/502 uses 2 channels of processing dedicated per channel and the 204 uses 4. I can say that the Helios is rather impressive with the deepest soundstage I have heard in my system, hands down. I also find it less bright vs. the 501 and incredibly smooth and detailed. It is between Playback and EMM in terms of Dynamics. It is in impressive unit That is priced well vs. what it is delivering.
I have the Lampizatior Amber 4, Weiss Helios, Weiss 204 and Innuos Pulse Mini to write up. We are not Lampizator dealers but have recently become Innuos dealers. I have heard insanely good things about the Pulse Mini so I am excited to hear it as an all-in-one streamer.
Lampizator Amber - I am going to preface this by saying I am testing this unit with stock tubes. I have no interest in rolling and optimizing as I have no plan to keep this unit for myself. Lots of threads in other forums on tube optimization for Lampi so no need for me to dig into this.
The Amber 4 is as nice DAC that is engaging and easy to listen too. The version I have is an XLR model with a built in volume control. It also has an analog input and can serve as a preamp. The closest competitor to this unit is the Rockna Wavelight.
What is immediately obvious is that with the stock tubes, this is easy listening but far from the be all, end all in terms of detail. In a Sentimental Mood is lovely. There is sparkle on the top end and very musical. It feels like there is a touch of smearing in the drum rolls
In Be Still My Beating Heart, soundstage is huge. Great width. Nice depth but lacks the stability of more premium DACs. Nosie floor through XLRs is quite low, espcially for a tube unit.
Liberty had zero sibilance. Effects were muted but coming from a distance. Staging is good but again, not the most focused image.
in the opening of Duende, there is noticeable smearing in the bass solo. This sounds smoother than more premium DACs but is not necessarily how it should sound. Dynamics are great and it is fun and easy to listen too.
On the Berg piece, strings feel somewhat massed and the intimacy is lost. Exactly what I would expect at this point in the demo.
Flaty, this is a very enjoyable and easy to listen too DAC. It reminds me of the PS Audio DSD in some ways. With stock tubes, it has excellent staging but lacks the detail and stability of the best units in the price class. Not sure how better tubes will impact this but have to assume it will improve it.
Weiss Helios - I have had this unit in for several weeks and have spent time with it. A few things stand out. The unit is obviously much larger than the 501. It is 2x the price of the 501 so the question is, is it worth that upcharge. Obviously that is a matter of your budget and ability to pay the list price of $21,999. If the price tag is in your range, this thing is fantastic.
The two things that are most noteworthy about this DAC is the depth of image and detail/instrument separation. In my system, I have not heard another DAC deliver the depth of image that the Weiss delivers. It also has extraordinary instrument separation. To a point where I have not heard another DAC this good. It is also more neutral than the 501/502.
This DAC carves out its own space in the price range. It is slightly brighter than the Playback MPD8 and maybe is more truly neutral than the MPD8 which I beleive drifts just a hair warm. There is a structure and stability to the image that is unlike anything I have heard. I historically have said no one is better between the speakers than Chord. This DAC is a step up from Dave and MScaler in my opinion. It also delivers an image beyond the speakers. The scale is not the same as Aries Cerat or Rockna but is still great.
Instrumental separation and the detail within moments like the drum rolls are extraordinary in In a Sentimental Mood. The absolute scale of the soundstage in Be Still My Beating Heart was not as extraordinary as the Aries Cerat or EMM but it is great. Noise floor is quite low.
Liberty is smooth and clean. Effects come from well away from the speakers. No sibilance at all. The opening of Duende is clear. This is the cleanest and clearest I have heard the bass solo. There is no smearing at all. Separation of strings in the berg piece is just extraordinary.
This unit falls in a middle ground between Playback and Aries Cerat. It is not as big and dynamic as Aries Cerat. It is not as soulful and sweet as the Playback. But it is in this amazing middle ground that is enjoyable and really special. Best for folks where image structure and stability along with detail are primary concerns.
@metaldetektorSorry for the delay in responding. It has been a hectic week here.
I am using the "Direct Connect" via ethernet from my Antipodes Oladra server. This should be virtually identical to feeding it from an Antipodes K41. I tested the internal renderer and the AES input from the Oladra clock and found them to be pretty similar so I defaulted to the onboard player.
I am waiting on the MPS-X to arrive. I ordered one in April and they are so backordered it still isn't here yet.
Here is a new review of the Topping D90LE. I am sure this is going to annoy a segment of the community here and they are not going to want to hear this. I found this demo supremely disappointing because of the hype associated with this product. If you ignore the hype and looks at this as an ~$1000 DAC with a good feature set, it is a good DAC at that price.
I plugged this in and connected it to my Antipodes Oladra via I2S and via AES. I tested both and I2S was superior. AES had significant smearing in low frequencies and I2S had less so I stuck with I2S.
In a Sentimental Mood sounded good. Drum rolls were crisp. Music was enjoyable. Stage seems smallish but this is not a large sounding song.
Be Still My Beating Heart sounded small. Image was concentrated between the speakers and was centered maybe a foot behind the speakers. This is a song that sounds huge and can be quite immersive with some effects coming from behind you in certain moments.
Liberty again, sounds small. The effects were not coming from the distance, but between the speakers. Her voice had an edge to it, not sibilant but close. This is quite impressive as many units drift into painful territories on that song.
In the opening of Duende there was still significant smearing in the bass notes that we hear in Levin’s solo. Drum rolls are good and dynamics are okay but the image is very centered.
Good separation and intimacy on the Berg piece.
This is a fine $1K DAC. It seems particularly good for acoustic music. It would be interesting to hear this compared to the modestly priced Cambridge, Peachtree and Musical Fidelity DACs. It is not interesting and not fair to compare it to units that are more expensive. You get a lot more in terms of staging and clarity at higher price points. If you are in the market for $1000 DAC, this should be on your list as it does a lot of stuff well. Don't think you are going to trade down and it will deliver the same listening experience as a more premium unit.
Interesting that you would throw this into the mix given the obviously better units that typically cross your doorstep. I agree with you regarding the hype when it comes to Topping, and I think your comments and evaluation are fair.
I think it would be interesting to compare against a Musician’s Pegasus as they are in the same price range.
Here is a new review of the Topping D90LE. I am sure this is going to annoy a segment of the community here and they are not going to want to hear this. I found this demo supremely disappointing because of the hype associated with this product. If you ignore the hype and looks at this as an ~$1000 DAC with a good feature set, it is a good DAC at that price.
the topping d90 was one of the first dacs i tried on my long road with dacs -- i concur 100%... it is a clear sounding unit but with poor timbre, flat soundstage and a notably robotic quality to its sound... it was in and out within a week
I had the Topping D90LE and the D90SE for a short time. Both of those DAC ended up being sold rather quickly since I found them rather lifeless. I like the Benchmark DAC3B a lot more than the Topping units. I still have the DAC3B and likely keep that around.
I am now down to 1 final audio piece to get to finish off my Livingroom system (other systems are done). I am looking at the PlayBack Designs Dream DAC (or the lower PBD unit). The system I plan this for currently has the DAC3B using a PlayBack Designs streamer (via SPDIF).
Listening to the Livingroom system already gives me goose bumps (every time). It sounds even better with the Schitt Yggi+ Less is More DAC, but I need that DAC in my office system. I am assuming a top tier DAC would be over the top incredible.
this thread is amazing thank you for putting it together, I am looking for my next dac, i just sold my lampi horizon. all my current top picks seem to be represented here.
What would be your current top pick for pure musicality? In your opinion
If i had to list my priorities in order- musicality , tonal density , soundstage width and depth, dynamics , flow / prat, detail ( i am a sucker for extremely detailed string instrument renders)
@richh84So...this is tough. My feeling is the Playback MPD 8 with the MPT 8 transport is going to give you the most musical experience. There is something incredibly musical and soulful about the Playback DACs and they are at their very best with the matching transport as that is best support for PLink.
That said, if soundstage is the concern I would lean towards Aries Cerat assuming you are not interested in DSD playback. The Aries Cerat has a bigger image and dynamics are extraordinary. It lacks the soulfulness of the Playback but makes up for it by delivering a jaw-dropping image. If you are into DSD and wanted a similar image I would look at the EMM DA2 v2.
For detail, the Weiss Helios is insane. I have never heard better separation of instruments and within an extraordinarily deep image. This will give you string instrument renders that are as good as I have ever heard.
Based on your priorities above, Playback would be what I would go with but I suggest the others as there is a balancing and tradeoffs even at this level. In all cases, each of these units needs to be matched with an exceptional server to get the most out of them and that will vary, even among the three above
@richh84I don't have a plan right now to test the Berkeley DACs. I am not a Berkeley dealer and have not had a chance to get one in on trade. I have heard very good things about them but can't say I have ever heard one of their DACs.
Having followed this thread while shopping for a dac, it opened my eyes to some great options. I did some research and ended up calling Scott. After discussing what I was looking for, he gave me some advice and I ended up with the Rockna Wavedream Edition. My previous dac was a modded Cambridge cxn v2. I truly can’t describe the difference in sound that the Rockna produces. I was starting to think I wasn’t going to be able to achieve the sound I had envisioned my system was capable of when I started the process. After rolling some tubes and the dac breaking in a bit, or my ears, I can say I’ve never been more satisfied. I’ve found great synergy with the Aric Audio Custom pset, Super 6sn7 Linestage, Rockna and Audio Note speakers. Really produces a beautiful, clear, natural sound. Thanks Scott for your patience and help. Aric too!
Thank you again for this amazing thread.
Have you gotten around to listening to the Weiss Dac 204?
I am very curious to know what you think and if in fact it is basically a 501/502 without the bells and whistles. I am looking to upgrade my current dac and Weiss is on the shortlist- I am trying tp stay as close $5k-$6k as possible, (although I am starting to realize this may be difficult considering what I am looking for), so if the 204 is THAT good it would probably be at the top of the list .
@pgastone So...I have the 204 but have yet to do a critical listening test. It is fully broken in as the unit has been out to a couple customers. It will be back this week.
I did spend a brief period of time with it and it is very good sounding but then had a customer in and had to switch back to the Helios. I will try and spend some time with it this weekend. My hunch is that the external power supply might be required to get the most out of it.
I have been crazy busy these past two weeks. We had a Halloween party for my 5YO daughter and had more than 20 kids at the house. Still cleaning up.
scott you missed an opportunity there!... children have the best hearing... we all would have wanted to know how many among the group of 25 5 year olds would prefer a rockna over a weiss over a merason!!! 😂🤣
Anyone in the Dallas area. There will be an Audio Show on March 15-17 Hilton Market center. . I work with Infigo audio and I own the Method 4 Dac. It uses the Ess Sabre 9038 chipset. The inventor worked with the sister company Ressonessence. It’s an high end super dac. We will be showing with the Stenheim Ref 2 of Ref 3. Come take a listen.
I have been promising you guys a review of the Weiss DAC 204 and here it is. The real question is the comparison vs. the 501/502. I don't have a 501/502 here at the moment for comparison. I do have the Helios which is a bit unfair.
Packaging is kind of lame. It is in a simple cardboard box with recycled, shredded paper as the protective material. For $3500, I expect foam. Maybe this is greener????
Tonally, this unit is a Weiss. It is not perfectly neutral and drifts a hair forward like other Weiss products. The sound is similar as well. The unit is detailed and sounds quite revealing. The image has good depth and width.
In a Sentimental Mood had sparkly piano and excellent placement of instruments. Be Still My Beating Heart has scale. Sting's voice is not sibilant in my system, but I think in a slightly brighter setup it could drift that way. Liberty sounds clear with very black background. Again, no sibilance. The noise floor is quite low on this. Great detail with Duende and the unit appears to be able to keep up with the more complex portions of the song. The Berg piece sounds right sized and intimate.
Based on my notes, I am not seeing hug differences between the 204 and 501/502. All indications are the 501/502 are a bit more detailed and the image is more stable. That said, I can't say that with absolute certainty.
I cannot believe you are that naive to think someone or a few here are shells for retailers. End game DAC to stop all this nonsense. Any Playback Design DAC. I finally got off the DAC merry go round with one of Playback DAC’s. Playback is End Game DAC material for sure. Try one you will see or hear as it would be.
@verdantaudio, were you using the stock power supply with the 204 or something else? I have the 205 and just purchased a Keces LPS for it and thought it was a nice improvement in dynamics and maybe it offered a little more fullness/mass to the presentation. I compared the combo with my Meitner MA3, and was very impressed with it relatively speaking for the difference in $$.
@ddafoei used the stock PSU. They make an external from Weiss. I just didn’t buy one. I have considered adding it. Compared to the Meitner, this unit is a step down. With the external PSU I am sure it is much closer.
Let me just add one thing that Scott didn't mention. The Weiss has two small toggle switches on the back that let you adjust down the output of the DAC by -10, -20 or -30dB. As this is a straight-forward DAC you will be using it with your preamp or integrated, and this feature enables you to operate your volume control over its optimal range.
So I have recently spent time with the Hegel H600 integrated amp and DAC. This has been an interesting test as it is a replacement for the old H590 I had. I want to focus on the DAC first.
After some testing, my feeling is the DAC is very much in-line with DACs that are in the ~$5K range. In fact, I find that the internal DAC sounds a lot like an Audiobyte HydraVox which I think is pretty high praise.
The image may not have the raw scale of the Audiobyte but tonally it is very similar and has a little bit better depth. Instrument separation is strong in "In a Sentimental Mood". Image is big and deep on "Be Still My Beating Heart." I heard no sibilance in Sting's voice. Effects were place correctly in "Liberty" and the background was exceptionally dark. Good separation with the opening in "Duende" and the Berg piece was lovely and sized well.
What struck me most is the improvement in the amplifier. The 590 was a smidge analytic though it never drifted bright. It sounded analytic and less musical than other amps I have here. The H600 is noticeably more musical and engaging compared to the 590.
This H600 is a lifestyle oriented item that doesn't sound like one. Single box with streamer built in but not really compromising in terms of sound. This is not an inexpensive device at $12,500 and we should expect exceptional performance at this price.
No unit works with every speaker. You would never put this with klipsch or something like Cube Audio which thrives on amps with a low damping factor. For mainstream speakers: Dynaudio, Wilson Benesch, Spendor, Harbeth, Perlisten, Q Acoustics, etc... this is a brilliant unit.
Okay...as I wait for my BACCH-SP Adio to arrive, I have a few other units that are worth doing a write up on.
Cary Audio DMS-600 is one that was traded in. This is a DAC/Streamer in one box. I plugged in the unit. Downloaded the Cary Application and put in my Qobuz credentials and was listening in less than 5 minutes. Took a few minutes to settle in on mechanics of the device. Dialed in the volume and let the system warm up.
In a Sentimental Mood has good sparkle in the piano. Detail is not elite but is very good. Drum rolls showing good separation. What really stands out is the great staging.
Be Still My Beating Heart sounds big. Image extending well beyond the speakers to the right and left. The central image and voice lack a touch focus. The central image lacks definition and it feels like the voice is coming from a very broad space. This is one of those things that no DAC at this level does super well. It is not off putting, just something I am noticing. Noise floor is good and there is no sibilance in Sting's voice.
Noise floor is superb on Liberty. Effects coming from where they belong. Tonally, her voice is hitting notes that are perfectly forward. Right in front of me, without me feeling the need to lean back or forward. No sibilance.
Opening of Duende is good. It struggles a bit to keep up with Tony Levin but again, based on price point, this is very normal. Song sounds full. Bass response is balanced and is neither pronounced nor is it absent. The berg quartet sounds wonderful. Maybe lacks the intimacy of the Chord TT2 but is quite enjoyable to listen to.
All in all, this is a product that is quite competitive in its price class. I am pleasantly surprised with how enjoyable it is to listen to. Smooth without being syrupy. Neiter forward nor laid back. This is a pretty nice device. I don't particularly like the way I control Qobuz from within the App but it is stable and not buggy. I just don't like the UI.
In coming days we will write up a POV on the Auralic Vega and Luxman DAC.
@verdantaudioIt gets even better with the Cary DMS-700. Unfortunately, Cary does not get enough recognition for their digital line-up. It's probably the best value out there in its price class as a DAC/streamer one box solution.
Just stopping by to echo the comments by Verdantaudio regarding the Weiss Helios. It’s stunningly good and will not be leaving my system. Now what to do with the QB-9 Twenty it replaced... :)
How does the Weiss Helios compare to the Playback Designs MPD-8? On the forum with "best" in the name, I saw that one dealer of both brands preferred the Playback (even just the MPD-6 with USB-X4) for being more dynamic and "analog", and harmonically developed, and this is before Playback’s upcoming mk2 upgrade...
Best is a terrible thing to think of. Like any piece of audio equipment, system synergy matters far more than anything else. I personally like the Playback in my Canor System with Wilson Benesch speakers. If I switch to VAC, I think the Helios is better. Something about VAC Master preamp and the Playback DAC don’t work together. Almost like the combination is too much of a good thing.
The Weiss is cleaner and a touch colder than the MPD-8. Exactly what you would expect from an ESS based DAC. The crosstalk DSP though adds an immense amount of depth to the image and is awesome.
The Playback is warmer and sweeter. When I swapped in Westminster REI amps, it was the only DAC I really loved with those. It is also insanely good with DSD.
You have to consider the rest of the system. There is a best for you and your system and that can and should be very different from person to person.
I’m using the Weiss with a CH amplifier and Rockport speakers, no preamp as I'm running the Weiss direct. I had a Levinson preamp in the middle and it was very good but I am very pleased with the sound I'm getting after removing it.
I would not at all characterize the sound as clinical or dry. It is extremely detailed, but not at the expense of musicality. It’s very dynamic and lifelike with the best soundstage I’ve ever heard. I am astonished by it each time I listen. There is zero fatigue and I can (and do) listen late into the night far too often. :)
Can’t compare to Playback as I have no experience with them other than hearing them at a few shows.
Thank you, and to clarify I agree there is no absolute best, just a personal “best” that varies from person to person and system to system. What you say about the character of Playback and Weiss makes sense.
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