I have never heard the Manhattan II nor have I heard the Denafrips which is why they weren't covered off on.
Based on your setup, I would look to replace the Mac Mini as part of any upgrade. Even a Roon Nucleus will be a huge upgrade and will do more to improve sound than your DAC upgrade. Over the weekend I had a customer swap in a Nucleus for a Mac Mini and he was just floored at the improvement.
Regarding DAC, if soundstage depth is your concern, I would would avoid Rockna. Rockna soundstage is very wide but not as deep as others. Chord probably has the best soundstage depth, especially between the speakers, but a TT2 will do little to address the clinical nature of your sound.
Bricasti is likely your best option. It has great depth and width of soundstage. Is detailed and very musical. You might be able to find a used M1 or M1 SE on your budget. You can get a new M3 on budget. I would get either with the network card. Either combined with a Nucleus will have a huge, positive impact on your soundstage.
|
@david_ten I have been lucky to have heard dozens of these premium DACs with a variety of speakers in my home and in many friends and customers homes. I am lucky.
On a relative basis, certain brands/DACs exhibit certain properties. In any system, I would expect a Rockna DAC to sound wider and flatter than Chord DAC which would be narrower but much deeper. There are many ways to compensate but if everything is held equal, I would expect this relatively to be true.
you are right though. A combination of room treatments or different speakers and system components could achieve different results. If depth of soundstage is a concern, MBL or Raidho speakers would have a bigger impact than a Bricasti DAC. But, that necessitates rethinking amplification and a variety of things. And it is true that a Rockna DAC in a system with Raidho speakers would probably sound deeper than a Chord or Bricasti DAC in a system with Magico speakers. but that isn’t the exercise in this case. The only variable proposed was DAC.
this does raise an important point and something everyone should be reminded of. The particular results in this thread are from a system that is intentionally held constant to provide relative characteristics. And I think that is the key here, results are relative. When you change a variable (speaker, amp, etc…), you do need to think through the implications.
|
I know it doesn't seem obvious a server would make that much difference. Part of it is the quality of the parts. Part of it is the higher processing power and parts selected specifically for audio performance. Servers make a difference more than most people think. Think of it this way. I have had quite a few people order Nucleus's while being skeptical if they actually make a difference. I have never had one returned on my 30 day return policy.
The M1 SE is going to be a bit more detailed than the M3. Soundstage in both cases is huge. I have not sold an M1 and have not heard it. Bricasti said few people ever buy it vs. the M1 SE so I ordered and M1 SE and M3 for my initial samples. The M1 SE is quite a step up from the M3 though the M3 is quite competitive in its price tier.
|
@david_ten We are not talking about optimization and I think a big part of that stems from the fact that "optimal" is personal and there is no objective truth. With people I talk to, there is a split between folks who want an image/soundstage laid out in front of them and others who want an immersive experience.
The choices you make to achieve this in terms of system building are very different and optimization down to room treatments, cable choice, etc... is quite specific. At a root level, none of these DACs is inherently "better" than the other. One may be a better choice based on it's sonic characteristics vs another for a particular problem you are trying to solve.
|
I know a lot of folks have been asking about tube DACs. I have a new Canor DAC 2.10 arriving in January which uses four 6922s in the output stage and will retail at $4k. I will get added here once it arrives.
|
Understood. IMO, By far the weakest link in your system is the Mac Mini. A server will do more than a new DAC.
Nucleus's are not crazy expensive. Depending on your data needs they start at $1459 and virtually all of Roons retailers sell them with a 30 day free trial. Your risk is return shipping.
I do think a DAC will help and you are right, the two speakers are very different. A big part of this might be which speaker your listen too more. If it is the Magicos, I would lean toward Bricasti and/or a Rockna Wavelight. If it is the Thiels, I might lean toward the Rockna Wavedream. A middle groung or one of the more flexible units is the Weiss 501/502 due to its built in DSPs that could make it more of a hybrid fit.
|
@ddafoe i used the stock PSU. They make an external from Weiss. I just didn’t buy one. I have considered adding it. Compared to the Meitner, this unit is a step down. With the external PSU I am sure it is much closer.
|
As new things come in, I will continue to update this thread. The latest unit to roll in on trade was the Lumin T2 DAC/Streamer. This was a customer trade and the unit was completely broken in. I did my formal test and have listened to it for a couple days.
I mentioned in another thread that I was exploring Lumin as a brand partner. This is not going to move forward. They have a model that protects certain dealer's territories. As I am largely web based, this will not work for me and I am not going to sign up for a brand knowing I am going to violate my agreements.
That being said, this is a nice DAC/Streamer. I briefly tested the Lumin software which seem stable and competent. But I moved back to Roon for the bulk of my testing and it is flawless as a Roon endpoint.
In A Sentimental Mood sounded wide. There is some speaker localization which is to be expected at this level. Top end sparkle is great.
Be Still My Beating Heart sounded wide but not massive. Depth of soundstage was good but not great. Sibilance in stings voice became immediately obvious and overall, this (and Liberty) expose this to be a relatively bright DAC. This is not a bad thing but needs to be accommodated as you build your system.
Soundstage on Liberty is very good. Wide, again but not deep. Some of the effects are wanting but overall detail levels are good. Definite moments where her voice comes across as sibilant.
At the beginning of Duende, separation, particularly in Tony Levins bass solo sounded muddy but not distorted.
String separation in the Berg piece was good, not flawless. There was a small amount of massing.
The list price on this unit is $4500 and I would say that as a standalone DAC, it falls a bit short of other units in this price range. The Audiobyte and Chord are more detailed while the Rockna and Bricasti have much larger soundstages. The thing to remember is this is not a standalone DAC. This is a fully functioning streamer that needs no server and that makes it a bit unfair to compare it to other $4500 to $6000 units.
I would definitely say this is a nicer unit that the Hugo2 and 2Go as a standalone DAC and streamer. Obviously, the Hugo 2 has a strong Headphone amp and is great in other places.
This is very fairly priced at $4500 when you consider it's functionality. Standalone DACs without a streamer at this price and above will deliver more but when you consider its full feature set, this is a great unit. Just make sure you integrate it into a system where the overall balance is warmer.
On a side note, there was another thread that discussed an absence of bass with this unit. I did not hear that at all. Admittedly, this unit has 100's of hours on it and I can't speak about how it sounds when it comes out of the box.
Coming soon I will cover the Musical Fidelity M3s CD and soon the Canor DAC 2.10.
|
The M3 is a DAC that I have retained sort of. I have had multiple people demo it and since there is a little bit of a break-in period, several people have asked to keep mine. My current version has a network card.
I have tested different connections extensively and just had a customer do some testing. USB is almost universally deemed inferior but it is not like it is awful. I prefer the Ethernet connection as I am a Roon user but the USB sounded very good and my initial testing was all from a streamer in via USB.
Ethernet and AES are best inputs but you will not lose much with USB.
|
@jjss49 - I am going to tempt you. There is a new Playback designs DAC coming out that is going to be a step up from the Weiss. $15K without built in renderer, $18K with what will be a Roon Ready end-point when it is finally authorized in a couple months. I am really excited about this unit as it is the natural step up from the Weiss.
@sbank Thank you for the kind words. I love that movie and if there were points available for best post, you would have earned them.
@jeffreyw I have heard several MSB DACs but the most time I have spent is with a Reference. I do have a good friend in NC with a Discrete but have not spent time with that model. The Mola Mola has not been through here either.
I am not an MSB Dealer (though I would love to be and may pursue the line at some point). Geographically, the importer and NY retailer for Mola Mola is in North Jersey. Makes no sense for him to add me.
As a result, I am adding Playback Design. See above my comment to jjss49. The natural competitor to the Discrete is the Rockna Wavedream Edition XLR. The MSB is obviously quite customizable which in upgraded form would likely land it between the Edition and Signature. The Playback is a natural competitor with the Mola Mola. It is a new unit but I expect it to be as popular as the Wavedream Signature which is a killer DAC.
|
I have promised a few more reviews here as some new devices have come in and one specifically is the Musical Fidelity M3s CD. This is a CD player with SPDIF, USB and TOSLINK inputs and lists for $1599. I bought it before AXPONA in 2019 for CD Transport for that show and literally had never listened to the DAC.
On In a Sentimental Mood, sparkle in the top end of the piano is great. Separation is good within the drum roll, not elite. It feels like this unit has a slight emphasis on the midrange as bass is slightly recessive and the cymbals in the right speaker are forward. Balance is different but it delivers a very musical and enjoyable performance.
In Be Still My Beating Heart, again slight absence of bass and resulting image seems short and moderately wide. Certainly wider than the Hugo 2 but with less depth in the central image. Noise floor is not as quiet.
Effects are prominent on Liberty. Not a touch of sibilance.
Duende had good, not great detail in the bass region. Treble separation was very good.
With Berg, there was a slight massing of strings which might be worse on a larger orchestral recording but it is very enjoyable.
PRaT is the signature. Extraordinary mids with a punchy mid-bass but without any excessive treble and slightly recessive bass. This may have been designed to compliment the slight brightness that one gets with MF integrated amp.
Like the Questyle, this unit is awesome for the money. If you told me it was twice the price I would not be shocked. Anyone looking for a quality DAC in the sub $2K range would be wise to consider this unit even if you never plan to open the CD tray. It will be especially nice in a system that is a touch bright at the top end or excessively bass heavy.
This unit sat in storage for almost 2 years and bluntly, I am disappointed that I haven't spent more time with it. It is striking a nice balance between detail and soundstage. Biggest issues I see are size and lack of XLRs which is not that uncommon in this price tier.
|
@fai_v I have never heard the mini-Ts and cannot speak about there ability to deliver micro-dynamics. That said, I am biased heavily against standard wood box speakers when it comes to production of fine details. My bias shows up in my own designs and the lead products I offer. My speaker cabinets are made from either Carbon Fiber or Fiberglass and the two lines I most focus on are Vivid (fiberglass) and Wilson Benesch (carbon fiber) as I understand why they are so good. It makes sense to me. I may not be best person to ask because of my bias.
That being said, Bryston hardware (amps and preamps) will not be a bottleneck in your system. It is VERY good electronics. I have not heard their DAC personally but I know it is supposed to be very good. Key is system matching. I would demo speakers you are interested in in home or on Bryston gear if you can. If not, work with someone who know the brands really well.
|
$4K entry - A DAC I have been waiting a year for finally arrived. The Canor DAC 2.10. When I signed on to be Canors’s distributor in the US, this DAC was promised as in development. They kept their promise with delivery was only delayed ~1 month for final tweaks. I arrived about two weeks ago.
This is only the second tube DAC we have reviewed. The much higher end Vu Jade was reviewed back in the earlier stages of this thread.
This is a Delta Sigma chip based DAC using and ESS Sabre chip. It supports MQA fully via the hardware. There are 9 filters including one to optimize MQA unfolding and a NOS filter. There is a re-clocker and an upscaler built in. It supports DSD up to 512K. It is fully balanced. What it lacks is a preamp stage. There is no volume control and no analog inputs. The output stage uses four 6922s.
In all cases, testing was conducted with upsampling and re-clocking on. Upsampling made a small but obvious difference. In regard to re-clocking, via synchronous connections (SPDIF) I heard no difference. Via USB from the Chord streamer I heard a small but noticeable difference. I did test from my laptop direct and the re-clocking made a noticeable difference. Clocking quality matters. @antigrunge2 I agree.
Performance wise, this DAC fits in the ~$5K DAC range. Although it is at the low end of the price range at $4K, it’s performance is comfortably in line with the Wavelight, HydraVox, TT2 and M3. The absence of a preamp and utilization of off-the-shelf DAC Chips explains the high level of performance at a more modest price.
The DAC shipped with 48 hours of burn-in on it and I immediately pushed it to get an extra 150 hours. The unit takes a good 30-40 minutes to completely warm up. It sounds a hair flat until it is completely warm like most tube units.
This is the warmest DAC in the price range that we tested. I did a direct compare to the Wavelight to be certain. The Wavelight is a hair more forward. Unlike the Wavelight, the output is a bit more balanced without the slight emphasis on bass that we get with that unit. Different filters offer different sound profiles but even the MQA and NOS filters leave this DAC a hair warmer than the Wavelight.
The sound is exactly what you would expect from a tube DAC and a DAC leveraging and ESS Chip. The soundstage is wide and deep. Detail and separation are brilliant. My initial test used RCAs but since the unit is fully balanced, I did hunt down a pair of XLRs (all of my AQ and Clarus cables are on loan). This had a noticeable impact on the noise floor and the DAC was slightly quieter with XLRs than with RCAs.
Regarding our test songs, In a Sentimental Mood sounded big and engaging. There is sparkle at the top end of the piano but less than it’s SS competitors. Separation in the drum roll is brilliant and wonderful air around the cymbals.
Be still my beating heart sounded huge as expected. Sounstage extends well beyond the outside of the speakers and completely immersed me. No sibilance in Sting’s voice and no glare.
Liberty is spectacular. Blacks are Black. Bass is not overly boomy. Effects are where they should be. Anette Askvik’s voice is in your face the way it should be with no glare.
Instrument separation at the beginning of Duende is superb rivaling the Audiobyte or Chord in terms of clarity. Instrument separation in Berg was superb with no glare from the strings though the intimacy of the chamber is lost given the scale of the soundstage.
The net result is that if someone is looking for a detailed DAC with good soundstage on the warmer side of the audio spectrum and they don’t need a preamp stage, this DAC should be a serious contender. In my system and to my taste, this is a hair warm. A final test outside of the scope of this was to swap in the less warm Hegel H590 (vs AVM A5.2) and I found the tonal balance more to my liking with a touch more sparkle.
|
I take that back, there have been two exceptions. Obviously I did not use ICs with the internal DAC on the integrated amp and the Vu Jade did not have a USB in so we used a Jorma Digital Coax in that test.
|
So…Rockna is R2R, Bricasti, AVM and Weiss are Delta Sigma while Chord and Audiobyte are FPGA. A good representation of all three technologies.
I am only streaming via Tidal through a Roon Nucleus+ to a Chord 2Go/2Yu combo.
I haven’t listened to a Redbook CD since AXPONA 2019 other than a few moments to test CD players that have come in on trade. I have one here for that reason so no redbook. |
one note - I am using FPGA in the marketing sense. That is, DACs that are not using a traditional DAC Chip (ESS, Burr Brown, Etc…) or an R2R but are exclusively using FPGA chips and therefore are firmware based. This is generally how Chord, Audiobyte, Playback Designs, etc… refer to their products.
I have a few transports here. I can order a CD or two with decent tracks on it. Good suggestion since lots of folks are CD users.
I would love to have more people involved. I will try and have my wife listen. She is a good counterpoint to my taste. For example, I like the MScaler, she hates it intensely. I will try and get a few other folks involved for specific ABs.
|
I have a LOT of money tied up in DACs at the moment. Adding more would be…unappealing if I have to buy them. That being said, if someone want to send a DAC for inclusion, I will be happy too. PM Me. I would love to add in a Holo May, Denafrips Terminator+, something from Topping and a Lampizator product.
The real meat of this is the four DACs in the $4500 to $5500 range, Wavelight, HydraVox, M3 and TT2. The Hugo 2 and the AVM are less. The Weiss and Wavedream signature are quite a bit more.
I am going. Into this with the hypothesis that there are still trade offs in this price range and to highlight what they are. The Hugo 2 and AVM will highlight what you get for a lot less.
This is not memory driven. I am picking 5 songs I listen to a lot and taking careful notes about what stands out and will compare. This is the only way this can be done. Music is too complex to strictly use your memory.
My wife will do the same but across a smaller sample as she is busier than I am. I will try and add in both the Audiobyte Hub and MScaler realizing that the MScaler puts the TT2 up in the price range of Weiss and Wavedream Signature which are much better DACs.
One other note, I have heard all of these products and none of them are bad. If you expect me to dump on one, that will not happen.
|
So…the M3 is currently burning in. The M1 SE arrived. The Weiss will be back from a customers home next week. My plan is to get started with one review by Sunday night. I have a house guest until then.
few notes:
if you want a DAC included, I will receive and return if you can get someone to loan it to me. I am a obviously a dealer. These are all my demo units. I am not trying to buy more equipment. In fact, after this I will want to sell a few of these. I normally don’t have this many demo units. It just happens I have them all at once just as I signed up for Bricasti so it is an ideal time to do this.
The one thing I am missing in this first run is a tube unit and I will eventually add a Canor and Jadis DAC to this.
Audiobyte, MoJo, Wyred and the others mentioned I am sure are great. Get one to me and we will get it written up. I will try and turn it around within a week.
In all cases, I am going to focus on the positives and contrasts rather than trying to say anything negative. I promise to do the same with any products you guys send me. I may offer you a private opinion.
Regarding FPGA - it was pointed out that FPGAs are delta-sigma DACs without a DAC chip. The question earlier around why FPGA to me stems from the flexibility offered with Firmware. This means they tend to have longer lifespans. Think about how long the Chord Dave or PS Audio DSD have been in-line. This is vs DACs that are based around chips where when the chip is replaced or upgrade, are “obsolete.” I don’t personally think this makes a DAC obsolete but it will certainly impact its value.
One other note. All of the units in this initial run have preamps built in. I will drop them in my reference system (Art Audio Opus 4 Monos) to evaluate the preamp and see if there is anything to note. I can think of one unit I had historically that was extremely underwhelming.
|
It will not be blind.
yes, these are products I carry. If something comes in on trade that makes sense to add, I will. At the moment I don’t have any used DACs/CD players or I would include.
What I am not prepared to do is buy, new competitive gear. If someone wants to send me something for inclusion, PM me. I am happy to incorporate. |
Playback Designs is FPGA and made in America. It is a line I am planning to take on at some point. |
Listening tests start today. Few other notes for those of you who care:
I am using Audioquest Robinhood Speaker Cables, Audioquest Water XLRs between the DACs and integrated amp, Audioquest Diamond USB between 2Yu/2Go and DAC and Audioquest Cinnamon between router and 2Go.
For power, I am using a Puritan PSM136 with Puritan Ultimate Power Cords.
The AVM has the stock tubes in it. The Kaya 45s are 9’ apart and toed in to the listening position and I am sitting about 9’ from the.
I will use a microphone to calibrate volume between DACs to ensure I am listening at same SPL level and will use white nose for the calibration.
|
tvad - let's call it poor phrasing. A good reminder that I need to be more exact in my language.
I checked my notes and Duende did not distort on the M3 (it did on others) but it is a bit muddy relative to the M1 SE and Rockna Wavedream. This I went back and checked several times on all the DACs. It proved to be one of the most obvious moments among these five songs hat highlight differences between units.
The portion in question is the bass solo that starts at around 21 seconds with the hardest part to reproduce at about 31 seconds. This does not sound bad on the M3 and without having the luxury of swapping in the M1 SE and or Rockna Wavedream Signature, you would not know that there is a lack of precision.
|
Weiss will be back this week. I am very curious how it will perform vs. the M1 SE. I will likely connect both via Ethernet as this will show both off at their very best. |
I have worked my way through a bunch of these courtesy of a wedding shower my wife and daughter had to go through.
The differences were not subtle and these DACs are very different. The track Duende in particular proved extremely difficult for many of the DACs to handle. This is going to be my new reference track for all systems.
There is an opening bass solo as each instrument is introduced. It is so difficult, I was wondering it the amp and speakers were up to the task of reproducing without distortion. Only one DAC handled it well and sounded flawless.
This was fascinating in that it is a story of trade-offs. You are generally trading immersive soundstage vs detail and if you want both, a nicer unit is essential.
The one compare i haven’t had a chance to do yet is with the Weiss 501 and the Bricasti M1 SE as the Weiss is out on loan.
Across price points, there is no comparison. The AVM and Hugo 2 were competitive between each other but were inferior compared to the Chord TT2/Rockna Wavelight/Audiobyte HydraVox/Bricasti M3 who were all inferior to the Bricastis M1 SE who was inferior to the Rockna Wavedream Signature.
I am very much looking forward to getting the M21 in to see how it performs vs the Wavedream Signature, along with the Chord Dave and Wavedream Edition.
And then ultimately how the Audiobyte HUB and Chord MScaler impact sound.
I am going to write up the beefy part of this first which is the compare of the four, $4500 - $6000 units. I will say there is no clear winner. There is going to be some pretty clear direction based on what you want in your system. |
@bigkidz Yep. JC, NJ. This weekend is quite busy with family stuff but will be in touch. |
@melm yes. It is sibilance where it does not belong, so yes, distortion. |
Okay….TT2 vs HydraVox
vs Wavelight vs M3
Please note, I am
using the AVM A5.2 integrated amplifier which is a Class D with a tube input
stage. This is the German company AVM
and has nothing to do with and is not affiliated with Anthem in any way. If you have read my other posts you will know
that I am a huge fan of this brand and this amp. My opinion only improved as a result of this testing
as this amp was really up to the task of properly driving these speakers and
highlighting differences in DAC performance.
The Vivid Kaya 45 is not the easiest speaker in the world to drive with
a min impedance of 2.8 ohms. This was a
brilliant combo.
I listened to the TT2 first following the AVM
internal DAC and the Hugo 2. I was actually not certain I was going to
hear a huge difference between the Hugo 2 and the TT2. The TT2 has
"double the taps" of the Hugo 2 but I had a lot of faith in the Hugo
2. I was wrong. The TT2 and other
three DACs in this class are demonstrably better than the rung down in every
way.
I like all four of these DACs very
much. Each does many things very, very
well and I could be happy with any of them assuming they are in the correct
system. And that is the key to
remember. This is my observation using a
very particular integrated amp and pair of speakers. They happen to be very competent but have
their own unique characteristics. In all
cases, instrument separation was very good.
Very little smearing and air around strings and cymbals was first rate. Some things may sound negative. For example the TT2 has the narrowest
soundstage of these four. It is still
massive compared to a step down, just different than its peers.
The TT2 was the most accurate / precise of the four
and this could be perceived as cold and bright. In the wrong system this
could be extremely unpleasant. In the right system, it creates an image
that is very accurate. In the AVM/Vivid combo, the sound is
realistic. Tonally, the instruments
sound just as they should. It did
present a touch of sibilance with Sting’s voice in Be Still my Beating Heart
and a few moments during Liberty as well.
The soundstage is
realistic but flat. The image is stable
and relatively wide, but the central image lacked depth. The soundstage is presented to the
listener. It is in front of them to
observe rather than a feeling of immersion.
The colder tones that show up as accuracy in jazz and vocal presentation
were completely absent in classical.
This DAC presented the soul of the string instruments in a way that
borders on impossible to explain. It
captured the emotion of Berg’s quartet and if more people heard classical music
with this DAC there would be more classical music fans. The soundstage was
intimate and this DAC shined like the sun.
This was clearly the best of the four with the chamber music in this
system and in some ways, the best of the four with Duende.
The Hugo TT2 showed a
level of competence that was simply absent from the Hugo 2 and on-board
AVM. Not that they are bad, just not in
the same league as the Chord.
I then switched to the
M3. Talk about contrast. You immediately notice the M3 has a greater
emphasis on bass and the soundstage is massive.
This is not a soundstage presented to you but one that immerses you in
the listening experience. It does not
have the same tonal accuracy as the Chord and sounds a hair colored. This comes across as incredibly soulful,
especially with female voices and horns.
So much so that I had to depart from the five songs only program and
listen to Jewel’s You Were Meant for Me which, when presented well, is one of
the most incredible vocal pieces I have heard.
The M3 met my extremely high expectations.
The M3 has a greater
emphasis on bass which I am guessing is contributing to the massive soundstage
it delivers. Be Still my Geating Heart
is the song with the largest soundstage of these five. The Chord presented an image that extended
maybe 8’ beyond the outside of the Vivids.
I struggle to quantify how large the image seemed. It had to be double
what the Chord presented and portions of the soundstage were coming behind
me.
On the other hand, the
bass was a little much on Duende for my taste and the intimacy of the Berg
piece was lost. It sounded too big and
beyond a chamber piece. Tonally, the
emotion of the strings were lost a bit for me compared to the Chord. If the amp was a hair brighter
These two DACs are
like comparing BMW and Lexus. Both are exceptional
at what they have chosen to do but are opposites in terms of style. If I was to sit down and listen to
Prokofiev’s Lt Kije Suite or Beethoven’s 9th, I would choose the TT2 without
question in this system. If I was to
listen to Black Sabbath’s Volume 4 or Peter Gabriel’s So, the M3 would be my
choice.
Music style is one
part but system matching is also critical.
I say that in this system. If I
had Raidho speakers which have a reputation for delivering a massive image, the
Bricasti might be too much a good thing and the Chord might fit just
right. My own Blackthorn speakers are
accurate and clinical and doubling down on that would be dreadful with the
Chord and the M3 would be an ideal match.
This brings us to the
other two. If Chord and Bricasti are BMW
and Lexus, Audiobyte and Rockna are Infinity and Lincoln. Different flavors in the middle. Equally extraordinary, but different.
The Rockna was the
next that I listened too and at first, I was shocked at how poor it
sounded. There are four filters and they
sound like completely different DACs. I
used hybrid and linear. I found minimum
and NOS to be unpleasant with this system.
Minimum in particular drifted too bright for my taste. This DAC also has a slight emphasis on bass
the way the Bricasti does which lends itself to delivering a big, deep
soundstage, albeit not quite as big as the Bricasti.
This is the ladder DAC
of the four and it sounded very, very good.
This had the least amount of sparkle and the warmest presentation of the
four. If you like a warmer presentation
or you are struggling with brightness or glare in a system, this is a brilliant
option. It struck a nice balance where
there was no sibilance in Sting’s voice or during Liberty but there is still
top level sparkle in the piano. The
intimacy of the Berg piece was lost a touch, but sounded more like a large room
rather than a concert hall.
I have a lot of
experience with this DAC. Part of what
makes it remarkable is that it is un-remarkable. It simply works in a lot of systems and just
sounds great. It is easier to describe
than its big brother, the Wavedream Signature (we will get to that later), but
especially if your tastes cross many genres of music, this is a “Goldilocks”
DAC for a lot of systems. Additionally, this is the only DAC among these four
with an analog input and home-theater bypass available so it can be used with a
turntable (yes, it sounds very good) or an AVR/PrePro.
And finally the
Audiobyte. This is definitely closer to
the Chord in terms of sound profile. It
is coincidentally also an FPGA. This is the most detailed presentation of the
four however it is less accurate than the Chord. Tonally the Chord is perfect in this system,
there is a tinge of warmth that comes across with the Audiobyte. It could be its greater emphasis on bass vs
Chord.
The image is larger
and deeper than the Chord but smaller and shallower than the Wavelight and
Bricastit. This had the best separation
of instruments among the four which was generally very good and it also had the
best air around cymbals and strings.
Although the TT2 was best with the opening bass solo in Duende, the
slightly stronger bottom-end of the Audiobyte.delivered and overall better
presentation. There is a very complex
underlying bass line during the song that the Chord did not present and was
muddy on the Bricasti and Wavelight, that came through clearly on the
Audiobyte. It also delivered details and
effects that remained inaudible during Liberty.
These were quite audible on the M1 SE and Wavedream Signature.
There was more top-end
sparkle in piano with the Audiobyte compared to the Wavelight. It maintained a very nice level of intimacy
on the Berg piece. This also has the
potential to be a “Goldilocks” DAC in a lot of systems. Especially those that are not challenged with
brightness and place an emphasis on detail.
In the end, all four
of these DACs are awesome and do so many great things. The priority needs to be on system matching
and making sure that the DAC meets your needs and appeals to your taste. You would think with the rather significant
investment each of these units commands there would be less compromise involved
and you could simply buy anyone and be happy but that is definitely not the
case. A good evaluation of your system
and your own tastes will deliver a great match though as one of these is
certain to deliver against everyone’s needs.
I will follow up with my wife's opinion of these but that will stretch out over days. |
One final note, I have been running these this morning in my main system with Art Audio Opus 4 Monos and Verdant Blackthorns. The brighter, less bass heavy speaker meant everything shifted.
The net takeaway is focus on system matching. That is the key. |
rsf507 - whenever you change speakers, there is always a chance that you will need to make other alterations to your system. Speakers can sound so wildly different. I can't imagine using the same gear to drive Vivid's and Vandersteen's.
When you make one change, others may follow. |
tvad - bass is an area that saw a big uptick in resolution. The M1 SE had much better separation on the very rapid bass notes during Duende. Like I said, it falls short of the much more expensive Rockna which sounded crystal clear, but better than the M3.
Like the move from Chord TT2 to Dave or Wavelight to Wavedream, the M1 is a clear and noticeable step forward from what is a very good place to start with the M3. |
tvad, the Bricasti emphasises bass compared to these other DACs, in my system, with these speakers. This is relative. It is not an absolute. With my Wilson Benesch's, this does not sound bass heavy at all, for example.
I want to redo the M3 and M1 SE back-to-back but in brief, the M1 is much more resolving. It is not quite at the same level as the Wavedream Signature (I bet the M21 will be) but better than any of the DACs in this $5K price tier. You have 13 filters to choose from which allows a lot of refinement in terms of sound preference.
I thought the width of soundstage was similar where the depth was maybe a bit shallower but much more focused and clean. It is simply clearer and cleaner. Not that the M3 is unclear or dirty sounding.
The M1 SE simply elevates and refines what is an extraordinary listening experience.
|
jjss49 - I don't disagree even a little. The Chord is clean and clear. The Mscaler helps clarify and boost inner detail. The other three are just not as clean and clear. This presents differently and is very appealing. Part of why I equate and want the Chord for classical is that clean and clear sound is where I value that clarity the most.
My hunch is that of all the DACs mentioned here in this thread, the one that would be closest to the Chords would be the Mola Mola. But the price of the Tambaqui puts it up in Dave+ MScaler, Rockna Wavedream Signature, Bricasti M21territory. And at that level, there is no trade between detail, clarity and soundstage. It is how the DAC is designed and what its sound signature and image do to your system that matters. Clarity is a price of entry to $12K+ DACs.
I am very much looking forward to the return of the Weiss to see how it does vs. the M1 SE. My memory is that the Weiss is incredibly clear but with a warmer presentation. The renderer and processor with room correction and all the other functions makes it pretty incredible. |
Bricasti M3 vs. M1 SE - This is, in some ways tougher to describe than the the cross manufacturer competition.
The M3 is brilliant. It is insanely detailed compared to most DACs but is not the end all in terms of detail.
It sounds massive. . It is the biggest soundstage I have ever heard in a DAC. It is not warm, not bright. It does have a slight emphasis on bass which makes it appealing for speakers that have less bass emphasis and makes it good for lower level listening.
The M1 SE is the same flavor of DAC. Tonally, very similar. It simply is more refined. You get a bit more detail. Everything is more focused. Details are there that aren't on the M3. Notes are crisper. Everything simply is technically better. This led the a shallower central image but with more focus. Definitely not a bad thing.
Removed from the crazy A/B of the other test, it is very obvious that these DACs are great at everything. They are an absolute pleasure to listen too on all 5 pieces. As I type this, I have simply let the Berg piece continue to play on the M3 and it is intoxicating.
|
Georgehifi - Tons of bass slam. Overall relatively tight. Not elite like the Wavedream or even the M1 SE but very, very good. The Wavelight is a very enjoyable DAC to listen to.
wjob - I tried both. I opted for minimum. It is a noteworthy change though. Linear definitely tightened up the bass and image a little but at the expense of some excitement and the raw joy in the listening experience of this DAC. I could easily change depending on the track.
|
@treebeard1 - I have never heard the DSD Jr. I had the DSD which is definitely competitive with this range. I sold that DAC about 15 months ago so I am going on distant memory.
The DSD sounded pretty big to me and extended well beyond the boundaries of my speakers. The Bricasti sounds MASSIVE. It has, by far, the biggest soundstage of the DACs I have tested.
I would start thinking about speaker placement before we go to actually buying a new DAC unless you just want one. What speakers and what amp? How far apart are your speakers? What have you done in terms of toeing and positioning? How far off the front wall and side walls are they? This all matters very much.
Regarding performance, my M3 does not have the network card. The M1 SE has the network card. Both my direct experience and everything I have heard and everyone has told me is the internal network card is the best way to get sound to your Bricasti. I used a 2Go and 2Yu with an AQ Diamond USB. It is very good. Not as good as network direct on the M1 SE with an AQ Cinnamon direct from my router.
So that makes it a huge win. It is less expensive than any decent renderer I am aware of and is only $1000 when added to the DAC. Seems like a no brainer to me. |
yyzsantabarbara - all of the DACs tested produced what sounded like a clear bass line. It was only in comparison that I realized that it could be better than what I was hearing.
I am not saying that either your Gustard or Benchmark can't do this. Unless I was able to do the test side-by-side with these, I can't be certain. I merely am saying I was surprised how much more info was available and wasn't showing up, even among these rather expensive units. The Rockna Wavedream Signature executed this better than any of the units, by far and it was illuminating.
|
No swapping of cards.
For the two units during the testing, I strictly used the 2Go/2Yu as the input.
I did test the M1 SE separately with the two inputs and found I like Ethernet slightly better. Theoretically the network card could be much better on the M3. I am making an assumption that it had a similar benefit to both.
|
@rja I have listened to the M1 SE and M3 via a renderer plugged into the USB. I also listened to the M1 SE via USB and the Ethernet.
In the end, I think it very much depends on your musical tastes and how much precision matters. Via the USB the M1 SE is objectively the better DAC. That being said, “better” from a technical perspective doesn’t mean it would be more enjoyable.
If precision and accuracy is important and the extra $4500 is not financially taxing, then yes, I think it is worth the step up based on my listening. As I said above, it might be possible that the gap between the M3s USB and Ethernet board is much greater than M1s. If that is the case then maybe I am wrong. |
@treebeard1 - I took a look at your room. It is a very nice setup. It looks like you are trying to maintain an equilateral triangle. I have only a little experience with Tektons. I have a customer I am working with who has the Ulfbehrts. I am not sure how much they emphasize that and how sensitive they are in terms of placement near the sidewalls.
Have you gone closer to the sidewalls? It depends on the speaker if that reflection helps or hurts and those are way out into the room. Does the bass get to boomy if you move them back a but? For me, optimal is wider than 6'.
If you are looking for soundstage depth, the M3 or the Wavelight would definitely be a step forward. The M3 has the network card which makes it a brilliant option. I would seriously consider it. I do think you will have some limitations with how close you are to those speakers.
One note, I assume when you say "non-audiophile" you mean normal music that people like, not low res. If that is the case, I would recommend that M3 very much. I obviously listen to more than audiophile tracks and digging into normal rock music (The Cars, Black Sabbath, Hendricks, Christopher Cross, Jimmy Buffet, etc...) I really liked it. This is the DAC I have been listening too during my days and it makes me very happy.
If you mean low res 128k and 256k MP3s, that is a completely different issue. |
My Weiss comparison is going to be delayed. Another customer requested a demo and the DAC is on its way to them. Should be back next week |
@dankef I have never heard a Sonnet product. I have no idea how it performs. I would start your own thread asking that question as the best chance to get a good answer from someone who is familiar with it. |
@treebeard I would do my best to get as far back as you can. Can you maybe use the adjustable studs to compensate for different depth with carpet or are you using spikes? If you are using spikes, I get the limitations completely.
|
@kren0006 Regarding the Weiss -
It is incredibly resolving. One of the most detailed DACs I have heard. I would guess that it is more detailed than the M1 SE, not sure how it will compare to the Rockna Wavedream Signature SE which is the most detailed DAC in this test thus far.
Tonally, I find it quite neutral. Not bright or warm. That being said, it is an accurate, very low distortion DAC. Some may find it clinical though lack of brightness will keep it from being cold. I have not had the experience of it being clinical but if paired with the wrong amp, maybe. That being said, I have not heard this DAC with pure SS gear. All of my gear here is either pure tube (Art Audio, Canor) or in the case of the AVM, has a tube input stage. I will have a Magnus Audio 340 coming in soon on trade which is a 50w Class A SS and will give it a listen.
The DAC is "Roon Ready" and is UPnP and DLNA compliant so ethernet in is a good option. In my testing, I found it to be the best input. It also has tons of DSP options and room correction which are easily executed via a Web Interface. It also has a nice quality remote and you can navigate via the touch screen and the front dial. That Web Interface is not used to play music though, just control the DAC. You need to use a separate bit of software (Roon, JRiver, etc...) and have either a PC or Server on your network. We recommend Antipodes servers with Weiss and Bricasti gear with built in network cards.
|
@jjss49 sorry to hear about your friends in Fort Lee. We live on a higher floor and our garage is above ground so it was not a huge deal for us luckily. |
@treebeard1 I have a PS Audio DSD Sr coming in toward the end of next week. I took it on trade today. I will add it as a point of comparison.
|
@melm I started this whole thread because it recently occurred to me how much compromise there actually is at this ~$5K level of DAC. The reality is (and I will offer a POV on the Hugo 2 and AVM along with a Wyred4Sound DAC that is coming in) these four are better than these lower end DACs in every way.
That being said, there is still compromise and it is largely a trade between detail and imaging vs. DACs one level up. Additionally, there is most definitely still some distortion at this level. Again, it is all relative and I am being HIGHLY critical and nitpicking in tiny areas.
Secondarily, I did not pick these tracks by accident. I know that all 5 are extremely difficult to reproduce flawlessly and the goal is to highlight broad differences in profile and how they perform in these extremes. 99% of the time, sibilance is not an issue for these DACs but there are places where it can rise up.
|
Next Update - Weiss 501 vs. Bricasti M1 SE vs Rockna Wavedream Signature
I would start off by saying this is in essence, no compromise space. All three of these are elite. They are clear. They have incredible separation between instruments and are roughly neutral. All three have massive soundstages. There are simply small differences in tonal profile and detail level that would alter your options.
This is now about careful system matching to your taste and not about compromise as detail and soundstage are cost of entry.
The M1 SE is the least detailed but is brilliant and is extremely engaging in all ways. Soundstage is huge and well under control. The central image is deep. The image is wide. Like the M3, their is a slight emphasis on bass vs. the Weiss and Rockna but not overwhelming. That being said, it handles the bass solo on Duende admirably, almost all the effects come out in Liberty and strings are well separated in the Berg piece. Harmonics in female voices are brought out in a really engaging and wonderful way, the best of the three for female vocals.
There are like 13 filters and I settled on Linear 1. This is an incredibly fun and engaging DAC to listen too. It is not as detailed as the other two (Weiss and Rockna) but is as detailed or more detailed than any of the units in the $5K range and has a better soundstage than those in that it is huge sounding but stable and imaging is precise.
The Weiss is about precision and accuracy. This is clean and clear to an almost unimaginable level while throwing out a massive soundstage. As large as the M1 SE, maybe even deeper away from the center. In terms of sound profile, it is maybe a touch cold. Settings are critically important on this DAC.
First run through the songs, I was getting a touch of distortion. Not what I was expecting. Changed the setting from full output to -10dB and voila, perfection. And that is the best way to describe this DAC. It delivers borderline perfect, completely clean, undistorted sound, yet with a huge soundstage.
There is no coloration. There is good air around instruments. But there is a complete lack of warmth and it is unforgiving. That being said, it has an insane feature set. There is no sibilance in the Sting track or during Liberty. Brighter systems can suffer from sibilance problems so they offer a D-esser DSP to resolve that. If you want a more analog and colored sound, it has vinyl mode. Have a bad room, it has room correction. Listen at low volume, there is a loudness setting.
I tested both the M1 SE and the Weiss via USB and their own, internal renderers. Suffice it to say, ethernet is the way to go. The M1 SE is a little better with it's card vs. the 2Go/2Yu. The Weiss is a lot better. They sell just the renderer and DSP portion of this and it would make an incredible front end for a very nice system.
Finally, the Rockna is remarkable in that it is unremarkable. It is tough to describe the sound profile. It is not forward. It is not laid back. There is no emphasis in bass. It is also not lean. There just nothing to note. It is not a DAC you will ever notice. The soundstage is big. Detail level is as good as the Weiss or very close. The way you would notice it is that you just don't notice it.
Yet there is a touch of, not warmth, but harmonics that comes through that makes it a hair sweeter and more forgiving than the Weiss. This might be the R2R ladders. It does not sound digital and is maybe a bit more analog sounding than the Weiss. It is almost like a middle ground between the Weiss and the M1 SE. Comparably equipped it is $17K for the XLR version compared to $11K and $9K for Bricasti and Weiss respectively so it should be better. It very much makes me want to hear the Bricasti M21 side-by-side which would be a fairer comparison.
If you either just love musicality and detail is not be all end all priority or your system is a touch cold, the Bricasti is an easy choice.
If you are focused on detail, crave accuracy or are interested in the feature set (amazing headphone amp not mentioned yet) this is a brilliant DAC. If your system is a little cold, this may not be the best choice.
If your system is in balance and you simply want to elevate it to and elite level, the Rockna is insanely good.
|
@jjss49 very interested in your perspective. @redwoodaudio I will reach out to Lampizator and see if they will send me a demo. @kren006 Here you go: - Rockna Wavedream Signature SE - $12K, XLR - $17K)
- Bricasti M1 SE - $10K, $11K with optional network card
- Weiss 501/502 - $8995 for 501, $9995 for 502, only difference is 502 has fully balanced headphone amp and is wider
- Bricasti M3 - $5500 base, +$500 for remote, +$500 for headphone amp, +$1000 for network card
- Chord TT2 - $5495
- Rockna Wavelight - $4950
- Audiobyte HydraVox w/ ZAP Power Supply - $4500
- Chord Hugo 2 - $2495
- AVM Internal Card for 5.2 series - $800
I am going to add in: - PS Audio DSD - $5999 w/ Bridge II $6848 I think
- Wyred4Sound DAC 2v2 SE - $3799
Just a reminder, all tests were conducted using an AVM A5.2 Integrated Amp, Vivid Kaya 45 speakers, Chord 2go/2yu renderer, Roon Nucleus+ with AQ Robin Hood Zero Speaker Cables, AQ Water ICs (XLR and RCA where appropriate) AQ Diamond USB & AQ Cinnamon Ethernet. |
@yyzsantabarbara I am sorry to hear that you are having issues. Let me know how I can help.
The Weiss is the first device I have had that has on-board room correction other than AVRs and Pre/Pros. It is easily bypassed. |
I used to own the DSD. I definitely know how to update the firmware. Will do.
I think Aqua is an interesting brand. I have take a few units on trade but have not heard one as I sold them to other retailers. If anyone is in NYC metro and wants to lend me one for a day.... |
