Okay...in another thread I promised to do a side-by-side evaluation of the Audiobyte HydraVox/Zap vs the Rockna Wavelight. Due to the astonishing incompetence of DHL this has been delayed. At the moment, I have a plethora of DACs here and am going to do a broader comparison.
I am going to do a compare of the Rockna Wavelight, Rockna Wavedream Signature, Audiobyte HydraVox/Zap, Chord Hugo 2, Chord Hugo TT2, Bricasti M3, Bricasti M1 Special Edition, Weiss 501 and the internal DAC card for an AVM A 5.2 Integrated amp as a baseline.
For sake of consistency, I am going to use that same AVM integrated amp driving Vivid Kaya 45s. I may branch out and do some listening on other speakers (Verdant Nightshade of Blackthorn and/or Wilson Benesch Vertexes) but want to use the Vivids for every compare as they are the fullest range speakers I have here. For sake of consistency I will use a Chord 2Go/2Yu connected via an Audioquest Diamond USB as a renderer. The only exception is the Hugo 2 which has a 2Go directly attached to it. I will use a Roon Nucleus+ as a server in all cases.
My plan is to use the same five songs on every DAC; In a Sentimental Mood from Duke Ellington and John Coltrane, Be Still My Beating Heart from Sting, Liberty from Anette Askvik, Duende from Bozzio Levin Stevens and Part 1 of Mozart String Quartet No 14 in G Major from the Alban Berg Quartet. The intent is to touch on different music types without going crazy.
I will take extensive notes on each listening session and write up a POV on the strengths of each unit. I am going to start this this Friday/Saturday and will be writing things up over the next month or so. If you have thoughts, comments or requests, I will be happy to try and accommodate. The one thing I am not going to do is make the list of songs longer as that has an exponential impact on this and make everything much harder. If and when other DACs come in on trade I may add to the list through time.
I would love to test the Holo May. I have not had one traded in and I am not going to buy a unit of this sort as it is going to cost me a lot of money because I am obviously not going to keep it. If someone wants to lend me one, I would be happy to test it.
That being said, the Khadas has arrived and in an irritating turn of events, ships with a USB C cable. I do not have a USB C wall plug and can't plug it in. I have to order one of those.
Rockna Wavedream Edition is in transit and will be here next week.
Interesting thing happened. I think I have one of the best offerings of DACs in the $4.5K to $17K range among many retailers. Under $4.5K, my offerings are a bit sparse, especially given availability issues Musical Fidelity is having. I have Chord. To that end, I am evaluating the Questyle CMA12 and will include here.
Two more DACs on the way in to get added to this. I just ordered a Khadas Tone 2 as an evaluation unit and I have a trade of a Rockna Wavedream Edition on the way.
I would avoid the Chord TT2, the Wyred 4 Sound and the Weiss as I think you will get as much or more glare from them. Then it comes down to balancing detail vs imaging. Audiobyte, Rockna and Bricasti in $5k range should deliver an improvement vs the codex. Audiobyte is most detailed with least impressive soundstage while Bricasti is most detailed with least impressive detail. Rockna is warmest of the three. My inclination is to say Wavelight but I think all three will be a step forward. Because of the ribbon on those Proacs delivering that big soundstage, you are going to need less help from the DAC. Audiobyte might be a good option. It would be between those two to me.
Ref75 and Ref5SE; ProAc DR30; Ayre Codex DAC; Aurender music server/streamer; Cambridge CXC transport; AudioQuest Cinnamon interconnects and digital connectors; Signal Company speaker wire with banana terminators.
I like how the system creates a large top to bottom, side to side, 3D soundstage that fills the room with detailed and organic sound. I also enjoy the separation of instruments, dark background I believe I am getting from my ARC components.
I'm not fond of the high end glare I think I am getting from my DAC, even though I do like the top to bottom extension.
@wharfy i would need to know the balance of your system, your current DAC, understand what you like and dislike about your current setup and what you want more or less of in a new DAC. Without that context, I am merely going to tell you which DAC I like best. That is worse than worthless because my opinion on what I like best might imply it is a better product than another which is simply not true. Gotta find what is best for you in your system.
@rja Thanks very much. I ended up selling the Sonnet and ordering an M3. I did find the Sonnet a bit soft in my setup so I’m hoping the M3 will be more to my taste. It was significantly more expensive though!
@verdantaudio talks about what might be best according to your preferences but I would add looking at a company that has fantastic support and for me personally made in the USofA. Again I'd prefer USA made for many reasons one of which I like to support local companies. With that being said Bricasti would be at the top of my list. (OK I already own an M1 but will be either getting it upgraded or buy the M3).
@rja , I'm realizing the full benefit of all Streamer/DACs that can eliminate USB cables, extra boxes and Power cords, my Bricasti M3 with network board sounds wonderful, and it and my system just got a major transformational upgrade with the addition of a Synergistic Research Ethernet switch and SR Ethernet cables, bigger positive change than changing any other component.
To dankef, I’ve owned both the Morpheus and Bricasti M3. In comparison to each other, the Morpheus is slightly soft while the Bricasti is a bit more incisive. I enjoy both DACs and a choice would depend on the rest of your system and what you want to achieve. Also, consider that the M3 is twice the price of the Sonnet.
@Chorus this really is a matter of taste, system and music preference which is best. For me, the Rockna Wavedream Signature, Vu Jade, Weiss, Bricasti M1 SE and Audiobyte were my favorites in roughly that order. My bias is toward detail because my gear and speakers are very musical and throw a big soundstage. If I had different gear, my order could change.
For perspective, I just had someone trade in the Rockna because what I love about it, they didn’t like. They are going with a new tube DAC from Gordon Rankin. @antigrunge2. I have not played with an external clock personally but am pretty certain I need to get an Antipodes Clock in to understand its impact. No question clocking matters.
case in point: that’s why reclockers like the InnuOS Phoenix actually have a value. Even better is the scenario where you can connect server and DAC via USB with a 10m OCXO or rubidium clock optimising the DAC clock. Since the DAC on asynchronous USB actually slaves the server, not only do you get a reclocked USB link but also the highest accuracy clock for the actual d to a conversion in the DAC. It’s why Esoteric and DCM offer dedicated clocks in their stacks
I have done some testing with cables. The AQ Diamond is very good. I swapped in a Clarus Crimson and think it was a pleasant switch depending on the speakers and is a very good substitute. if you have issues with box on AQ stuff fitting, this is a brilliant substitute.
In some cases, I reported a bit of bass emphasis with some DACs. Swapping speaker cables, I think that was the AQ Robin Hoods, not the DACs. It is definitely a more bass heavy cable which is probably why I like it with my stand mounts.
Finally, I have done some additional testing with different servers. I have an Antipodes K40 here (and an open box) along with my sample Nucleus+, a traded in Nucleus and a Wavedream NET that was just traded in with a Wavedream Signature DAC.
The Nucleus+ and Nucleus exhibited no difference as standalone servers. I do think there was a small improvement with the Nucleus+ when they were connected via USB and the Roon unit was used as server and renderer but it was small enough that I am not certain and it could be my internal bias.
The Antipodes K40 as a server used either with the Weiss directly via ethernet or with the Chord (2Go/2Yu) renderer is significantly better. It should be at 4 to 6x the cost of the nucleus but everything is clearer and cleaner. Effects, especially in Liberty, clustered notes like the opening of Duende or bells in Be Still My Beating Heart are just clearer.
The Wavedream NET as a Server vs the Antipodes were a push when feeding the 2Go/2Yu. Feeding the Wavedream Signature takes this DAC to a totally different level. The loss of that last, tiny bit of jitter is just mind boggling. I am using an Audioquest Dragon 48 HDMI to connect them. The idea is that the clock is perfectly synchronized between the two devices and that is completely obvious.
I agree regarding implementation. There are some limitations with R2Rs and DSD. Otherwise, the only thing I can see against any design is if a DAC uses a particular chip that is discontinued and/or replaced, the older models will drop in perceived value. That obviously doesn’t happen with R2R DACs or FPGAs.
it is much more the implementation of the individual design than the basic architecture (R2R, FPGA, Delta Sigma)that differentiates dacs: i.e. quality of clocking and power supplies( foremost), quality of the noise rejection on digital inputs, design of attenuator (if used as a preamp), presence of op-amps or capacitors in the signal path, direct coupling of output stages and on and on. I very much question the ability to differentiate between the different chip sets, be they TI/Burr Brown, AKM, ESS Sabre et al. in an optimised setting on sound quality. Assuming optimal clock accuracy it is really the differences in the analogue domain that determine dac sound quality.
Okay...the Wyre4Sound DAC 2V2 SE arrived on trade. After a little bit of time playing and getting settled, I ran the same test but first a few notes. This DAC has an insane number of settings.
Unfortunately, they are in a menu that is accessible when the DACs main power is on but the DAC is not running. This makes making changes more difficult but you have an immense amount of flexibility to fine tune your sound.
This could take hours and bluntly, I don't have those hours to spend so I made a few tweaks to get the DAC into the system and the thing I found most intriguing was the jitter eliminator though I don't love the net result. It sounds less like true, proper clocking and more like a DSP correcting for a clocking error which it probably is.
Soundstage is great. This blows the Hugo 2 and AVM out of the water in terms of imaging and staging. Overall, detail was very good. I puled out the Audiobyte and Hugo 2 as points of comparison.
Detail in drum rolls are strong but a hair below the DACs in the price class above. Well below the TT2 or the Audiobyte. There is a touch of sibilance in Sting's voice and in certain parts of Liberty. Two or three moments of glare during Liberty that were tough to listen too. This is likely based on the setting I quickly arrived at.
Strings were slightly massed in the Berg piece and due to the size of the soundstage, the intimacy was lost. The opening of Duende was a little bit of a struggle. It did the job, but not at an elite level. It sounded a little muddy.
It is priced in the middle between the Audiobyte and the Hugo 2. Performance is in the middle between the Audiobyte and the Hugo 2. Detail is closer to the Hugo 2 while staging is closer to the Audiobyte.
At $3800, as a new DAC, it is priced fairly and delivers very good performance if you are wiling to spend the time tweaking in what is not the best user interface. Used, in the $2k range...this thing is incredible.
At the risk of being repetitive: it is much more the implementation of the individual design than the basic architecture (R2R, FPGA, Delta Sigma)that differentiates dacs: i.e. quality of clocking and power supplies( foremost), quality of the noise rejection on digital inputs, design of attenuator (if used as a preamp), presence of op-amps or capacitors in the signal path, direct coupling of output stages and on and on. I very much question the ability to differentiate between the different chip sets, be they TI/Burr Brown, AKM, ESS Sabre et al. in an optimised setting on sound quality. Assuming optimal clock accuracy it is really the differences in the analogue domain that determine dac sound quality.
Great idea Verdantaudio. Will follow this enthusiastically.
Antigrunge2, I have to agree. I’ve heard great R2R DACs, and know the sound of the Magicwire DAC in the Devialet Expert Pro, which is based around a Texas Instruments PCM1792 (Delta Sigma topology). I believe that its not so much about the DAC chip in and of itself, but the execution of the supporting architecture and the chip together. Having heard several high-end DACs including R2R and FPGA based DACs, I can confidently state that the Devialet Magic Wire DAC is in the same class.
@axeis1 I don't think I mentioned that I did test the filters. Chord is the brand I am most familiar with so I tested them quickly in this setup but found I liked it best with the filters off. This is not a particularly bright setup and I find the TT2 filters add a touch of warmth in high frequencies, that is it. They are more subtle than say NOS vs linear on the Wavelight.
I rarely use the Chord filters with either system as both have tubes or my headphones that I use most commonly (Thinksound On1 and Focal Celestee). On the rare occasion that I have a demo of another headphone, that may change. I would have the filter on warmest with say Focal Utopias. Probably off for Stellias. You get the idea. Headphones have been hard to keep in stock and I can't open a pair for demo.
Hugo 2 vs. the internal DAC card on the AVM Evolution A5.2 Integrated.
At first I thought this was an unfair comparison. A $2500 DAC/ headphone amp vs. an $800 card. Take away the headphone amp and battery and the Hugo 2 is basically a Qutest. No need for a case and power supply....strong potential these would be pretty comparable. I was correct. They are two very different sounding DACs but in many ways are quite comparable.
This is by far the hardest portion of this to write. I wish I would not have listened to the better DACs before writing it. All DACs in the price tier above (~$5K) are better in every way. It doesn't make them bad. Just not as good as the units that are 2x-6x the price.
The Hugo 2 is a DAC I use for lots of stuff because of its mobility and connectivity but other than with headphones, I rarely listen to it critically. The immediate thing you notice is stable and clear. It is centered but did not extend beyond the speakers. This is not a bass heavy DAC(this does not show up with headphones) and this is what creates the perception that it can be a hair bright. Instrument separation is good. Some massing of string in particularly challenging parts of the Berg piece and the opening of Duende was a challenge but overall, detail is a strength for this DAC.
The AVM is the opposite. It had a lush central image with an emphasis on bass that creates a perceived warmth. The image also did not extend beyond the speakers but it was more layered and delivered more of an experience. Detail is not a strength. Strings massed during more challenging parts of the Berg piece and the opening of Duende was a struggle. Expectations though with AVM are that it will have a richer, warmer sound and it did.
Basically, if you are looking for a good DAC in the $2500 range and below, Chord is going to be on many lists and belong there. Detail retrieval is excellent and if detail is your priority...this is a brilliant DAC (as is the Qutest).
For what is not an inexpensive integrated amp ($6995 list) with two optional cards push price to $8595 (Phono & DAC - each $800) you would hope the DAC would be decent and fit with the brands house sound. It does. It would not be uncommon for someone to pair a Chord Qutest with the AVM integrated or a similarly priced DAC. If you like a warmer sound and want a one box solution, this would not be a bad option.
@georghifi. I thought I mentioned that the Vu Jade was an R2R. Definitely a good sounding unit.
No, you only mentioned the cheaper single box was Delta Sigma
verdantaudioOP Today I had a visit from Peter and Karl of Vu Jade. The brought their DAC 100 which retails for $12K and is a two chassis tube DAC. They also offer a single chassis, delta-sigma DAC using 6SN7s and is one I am looking forward to hearing.
@georghifi. I thought I mentioned that the Vu Jade was an R2R. Definitely a good sounding unit.
@treebeard1 the M3 will be a noticeable step up and will have similar musicality as the PS Audio. It feels like a natural step forward. @milpai the Audiobyte and Bricasti both do pure DSD. I can lend you either. My M3 is off at a customer until their order arrives so It would be maybe 10 days. The Audiobyte could be shipped tomorrow. The TT2 is excellent but yes, it leans a bit cold.
i am quite enthralled by both the weiss and the hugo tt2, with the m scaler upstream... both are beautiful sounding, superb, and utterly without digital artifacts, tonal balance and nature of imaging slightly different between the two
need to listen more, using different connections, to confirm what i think i am hearing as to the differences, before i try to express it in words
@georgehifi,Thank You for the details. So R2R is preferred if you mostly use CD resolution. We will agree to differ on the fact that I love to upsample all my FLACs to DSD :-) But thatss besides the point. @verdantaudio,I was seriously eyeing the Wavelight, but I understand that it does not do pure DSD. So now the Dricasti M3 seems to be the go-to DAC. The Chord Hugo TT2 is also interesting, but I heard from multiple sources that it is on the cold sterile side. Thank You for the comparisons.
@verdantaudio, Thanks for the PSA DSD review. Since I have the Jr. I can assume it's about 85% of the Sr., which is still behind the M3 and others. Although I have been happy with the detail, depth and separation are what I feel is missing.
This information definitely helps me move forward.
verdantaudioOP
Today I had a visit from Peter and Karl of Vu Jade. The brought their DAC 100 which retails for $12K and is a two chassis tube DAC. They also offer a single chassis, delta-sigma DAC using 6SN7s and is one I am looking forward to hearing.
What it delivers is PRaT. Punchy mid-bass and mids that shine like the sun. It is not bloated. It is not lean. Nor is it overly warm. I thoroughly enjoyed this playing In a Sentimental Mood as the saxophone was sweet and the piano sparkled. It made Anette Askvik's voice sounded incredible during Liberty. There was no sibilance in Sting's voice or during Liberty. It was incredibly quiet and delivered good detail in the opening of Duende and the ending sounded unified and extremely coherent.
Sounds like you just listened to a R2R dac, you didn’t say what conversion topology this one uses uses??
You did say the cheaper one is Delta Sigma. though.
PS Audio DSD is in and tested. This is by far the oldest tech tested and in the end, it is very obvious why this unit is well liked.
The tonal profile is flat. Not bright, not warm. Not lean. Not bloated. What it lacks is detail and a deep central image. It has a very wide soundstage and a certain sweetness that is quite enjoyable.
Separation on the drum roll in In a Sentimental Mood, chimes and bells in Be Still My Beating heart and the opening of Duende lacked separation compared even to the least detailed units in its price class.
For those obsessed with detail, this is not for you. And you will see this criticism from some. Look to the TT2 or Audiobyte in this price class. Weiss, Chord Dave or Rockna in the price tier above. If you are just looking for a fun sounding, enjoyable unit that does a lot well...this is a good choice.
At the full price today of $6K ($6.9K) w/ bridge II, this is a nice sounding DAC but I think newer tech has leapfrogged it. The unit was introduced in 2014. I think the Bricasti M3 is more detailed, has a better central image, is equally wide and is similarly priced. For a touch more, the Wavelight with a Bricasti M5 would best it easily in terms of detail and soundstage.
However, at $3K w/o bridge, $3600 w/bridge in the used market, this is a strong value.
On a pure spec basis, the Bricasti is only capable of DSD 256 which would make it technically inferior to the other 3 which are capable of DSD 512. The PS Audio DSD just arrived and is as limited.
I do like the Audiobyte which has a pure DSD setting that bypasses any extra internal processing. It does only work as a DAC this way and the volume control and headphone amp are turned off. It also is only available via USB and /or I2S inputs.
That mode would give it an edge vs the other two (TT2 and Wavelight) for that reason.
If you only do DSD (no pcm) then Delta Sigma is the way to go. But if you do 50/50 then go R2R with dsd capabilities If you do 100% PCM: RedBook,16.44, 24.96, or DXD then the only choice is for the best reproduction is a well thought out R2R dac, as Delta Sigma can only give a facsimile of PCM
@verdantaudio,If a user purely does DSD playback in his system , which DAC in the $5k range would you recommend. I doubt the R2R would be helpful in such cases. But do correct me if I got that wrong.
What it delivers is PRaT. Punchy mid-bass and mids that shine like the sun. It is not bloated. It is not lean. Nor is it overly warm. I thoroughly enjoyed this playing In a Sentimental Mood as the saxophone was sweet and the piano sparkled. It made Anette Askvik’s voice sounded incredible during Liberty. There was no sibilance in Sting’s voice or during Liberty. It was incredibly quiet and delivered good detail in the opening of Duende and the ending sounded unified and extremely coherent. This DAC is quite at home in its price and delivers a very analog sound.
Sounds like you just listened to a R2R dac, you didn’t say what conversion topology this one uses uses?? You said the cheaper one is Delta Sigma. though.
However, it sounded big and slightly colored to me on strings.
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