DAC question - is music streamer DAC better than mcintosh DA2?

@cat345 - agree. I have auditioned a few speakers since I first asked the question but none of the dealers have DA2. I love what DA1 (MA7200) generates and I’m guessing DA2 will be in the same vein. 

But in the last two days I heard MA 252 and MA352 and ended up purchasing the latter. The streamer + DAC used for it was the hifi rose 150b. BEAUTIFUL music. 
 

Maybe the DA2 will be a purchase in the future for another room. I’m still curious about the source of music for y’all where you’re bypassing all other DACs and use the DA2. 
 

@nathandfwacoustics - I'd say about 100 hours of continuous playing. IMO, you can't go wrong with the McIntosh DA2 dac module. Even if you ever find a better sounding dac, you'd have to add a lot more for decent interconnects from dac to preamp.

When spending considerable cash on toys like those it’s best to see them and hear them in person 

No experience with the 352 other than seeing it in person.   I have listened to the 252 a few times.  

@spearl8 - glad you love the DA2 and that it’s serving your needs. I see tons of votes here for the DA2 :) 

@oddiofyl - ma252 is a very nice looking amp and agree about the comparison to bigger integrated amps. Any experience with ma352? :) 

The MA252 is a nice little amp, i like it.   I do not think it's even close to the larger amps with Autoformers though.   They have 8,4,and 2 Ohm taps.  They won't break a sweat with difficult loads 

I have a C53 with DA2. It’s an amazing dac plus it saves on cables. I think you have to spend $15k with good cables to beat it. 

I was suggesting getting a traditional integrated amp-no DAC- not complete separates 

Y'all have given me so much to think about. Sorry about not replying back until now. Been busy as heck. 

@jastralfu - I think I love that McIntosh sound but asked my dealer if there are cheaper options (sigh). I'd like to fill a few rooms and so, the McIntosh (unexpectedly) is becoming cost-prohibitive. I'd love to see what the dealer can do at my next audition. I have decided on the brand of speakers - Sonus faber and am exploring a couple of floor-standing and stand-mounts with him. Bless him, the guy is very patient with me. 

@oddiofyl - my dealer says the same - that it can drive the Sonus fabers (4 ohm) and that there won't be any 'fatigue'. The autoformers, I guess, is what makes it the "McIntosh sound". Dealer also suggested as a cheaper option - the MA252. 

@p05129 the hifi rose - RS150B is what I auditioned with Sonus faber Olympica Nova III and the McIntosh MAC7200 receiver. The DAC in. the hifi rose, he tells me, is way better than the DA1. Better even than the DA2 in MA8950, he tells me. When I auditioned, I guess the RS150B acted as a pre-amp and the MAC7200 was an amp? idk - I am still new to all of this. I really thought he ran the MA7200 integrated amp but when I looked back at the pictures, I realized it was a MAC7200 receiver. I guess my question is: if I don't get the RS150B or any network stream player, when does the internal DA1 come in to play? Is it for CD/DVD/Blu-Ray audio connections then?

@cherbib - I am gonna look up your products; didn't even know what "NOS" meant until I read it here first :) Do you by pass the DAC in your Pro-Ject StreamBox Ultra 2 to use the MA12000's DA2? Or there's no DAC at all in your Pro-Ject StreamBox Ultra 2? What speakers do you use? 

@captaindidactic NOS tubes again? wow. Now I have to really pay attention to this - since both of you invested very heavily via the McIntosh amps/integrateds. Were you able to bypass the DAC in your Lumia T2 to do an A/B test against the DA2 in MA12000? Is the possible to do with the Bluesound Nodes, Cambridge, etc? Agree re: integrated vs separates. I can't imagine handling the cables or even finding the perfect combination for proper synergy. I thought my dealer used the integrated amp but it was a receiver. What speakers do you use? :)

@jeffreyw - that's a big data point to consider - that the DA2 is better than your $19K external DAC. I gotta figure out a way to separate the DA2 and the RS150B and see what I like better. I don't even know if my dealer has an integrated amp with DA2 because he only mentioned DA2 while I was stepping out the door "if you want a more updated integrated amp, check out the 8950; it has more controls on it and oh also, a new version of the DAC compared to the 7200". So same question as above - I guess the internal DAC in the 8950/9500/1200 plays a role when we connect to a CD/DVD/Blu-Ray player, no? 

@john1629 - competition to Sonus faber then - I have to check out the Dynaudio speakers then :) 

@profoundprorva "It’s almost like comparing Class AB to D amps." - doing the research on these two gave me a headache; I gave up :( I can't even tell which class the McIntosh integrated amps fall under; they have a phone number on their site. I ought to just call them and see what happens

@chcumo63 - thank you for the data-point re: upgrade, the comparison and your experience with the Aurender

@raysmtb1 - did you try the hifi rose 150B? now that would be a great comparison :-) The hifi rose 150B was totally unexpected - and not even in my budget. But I fell in love with the combination of the components I auditioned. And it plays videos. And ad-free YouTube (forever). And if I choose songs from YouTube, it picks up and plays the best "hifi-resolution" clip. And I can attach it to my TV and the video can play there too. AND my dealer says it's better than the DA2. I tried to do some research on the motherboards and brands and what-not in various DACs but it got too technical for me. @jbuhl  alluded to a particular chipset. I'm married to an electrical engineer but talks about electronic components gets way too technical for me way too easily and I have to remind myself that I am doing this for the music that I love - not the components :-)

@cat345 - how many hours/days did it take to achieve 'break in'? My worst fear is that I spend all this $$$ and I don't find the heavenly bliss that I found during the audition process and the dealer will just attribute it to "break in" :-)

@jmrrobbie1- thank you for a thorough breakdown of your A/B comparison with separates vs integrated amps. I never had the gall to put my dealer through that BUT I also knew I just couldn't deal with finding the perfect synergy between separates + extra cables :) Integrated amps for me, all the way

@john1629 - "MSB Discrete" - just looked it up and totally cost-prohibitive for me. Maybe one day, I can audition it and see if I can do an A/B comparison. Interesting that the combo made you go "wow" :)

@chasda - great to hear first-hand that the McIntosh integrated amps worked well with Sonus faber. This is my ultimate goal, as well. I have auditioned the Sonetto Vs with a McIntosh MHT300 and then Olympica Nova III with MAC7200 receiver (two separate occasions). I am about to audition the Amati G5 soon but the dealer doesn't deal with McIntosh - he wants me to audition it with Michi X5 series 2. So I'll see how that goes :) 

@mahler123 - McIntosh sure does make the preamp+amp separates but I'm so not qualified to make the judgement call with the synergy. Integrated amps is the way to go for me :)

@jastralfu - my dealer certainly wants me to try the 252 for one of my smaller rooms along with a more affordable streamer (instead of the hifi). I gotta set a date with him for this particular combo

@kennyc & @ghdprentice - gotcha re: in-built DACs within integrated amps. I gotta talk to the dealer about being able to "separate" it out without making it too much of a hassle for him so that I can hear it myself. 

I love that y'all responded and gave me food for thought. Thank you, all. 

@kennyc 

+1

@nathandfwacoustics 

Generally speaking, quality of a DAC greatly affects sonics and often DACs within an integrated is subpar.  There are exceptions of course, but quality DACs increase cost while an integrated is for saving costs of casework and cables.

Whether or not an integrated DAC is satisfactory is an individual subjective judgment.

I believe the only pure analog integrated amps they make are the hybrid amps, the 352 and 252

OP

  if you don’t want to spend money for an included DAC, just get a traditional integrated that just has pre amp and power amp.  Surely McIntosh still makes those?

Glad to hear you are enjoying the 8950.    Awesome amp

I recently upgraded my Yamaha AS2100 to a McIntosh MA8950. Although I felt the Yamaha was good for it's price point, it was the weak link in my system, and works really well powering my outdoor speakers. I also use a Node to stream. Upgrading the Node was on my mind. I was running the Node through the external DAC in my Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD. That was an improvement over the Node but the clock in the Yammie DAC was glitchy. I went to the Mac specifically for the DA2 and the audioformer. I have Sonus Faber Cremona Ms, which are 4 ohms, plus 2 KEF subs and felt like the Yammie wasn't doing them justice. Since swithching to the Mac. I've noticed significant improvement in the streaming. The DA2 is far superior to the Yammie DAC and the Mac has opened up the Cremona's. After hours of playing at 50% the Mac barely gets warm. I'm real happy with the choice and glad to hear others share my experience. 

Integrated Amps with built in DACs get a bad rap.  My Cyrus i7XR integrated has the same chip set as the DA2 and sounds phenomenal.   I was going to use my RME DAC with the Cyrus but I ended up selling it because the amp sounds so good using it's DAC.  

The McIntosh removable DAC card helps avoid obsolescence and sounds damn good.   

In my travels, with my Mac 8950, the only DAC I’ve heard that made me say WOW was my amp with an MSB Discrete.  But as just previously stated, that’s a bunch of money (12k).  I do believe that the MSB is a dac streamer BTW.  

I have had my MA12000 for 3 yrs now. My first dip into audio was the 70s/80s, hence always leaned towards separates.  I  went to several listening sessions of different amps/preamps and a few integrates before my purchase. One session I had the chance of comparing the McIntosh separates to their integrated MA12000 side-by-side…done deal. They really nailed it…the tube front side with the s.s. backend done in a proprietary pathway is excellent.
The MA12000 does everything well…some exceptionally well. You would be hard pressed to find a better preamp. More connectivity than anyone would every need too. It will drive most speakers easily; never gets warm. As more of an analog guy…I decided to add a phonostage even though the MM/MC sounded really good in the MA12000; PS Audio had a discount promotion on their Stellar phonostages. It was difficult  to tell the difference…the separate phonostage added a little more “depth” at the bottom end, but very little else compared the the MM/MC input on the MA12000. Again, this integrated does everything well and some exceptional well, really no weak areas except it is really heavy ( a two person lift) & big in size.
The D2 card I have not compared side by side yet with a separate Dac. I am looking for a good streamer, currently using the Bluenode which is great for what it does at the pricepoint. Last week I did a lessoning session/audition with the Aurender N20 with a Berkley Alpha 3 Dac = I found my streamer! I think my best path is to go with the Aurender streamer and use it with the MA12000/D2 & add a separate Dac down the road – if needed; D3 may be out by then?  I feel the DAC world will only improve and hopefully the price-points drop…the MSB discrete has positive reviews but at 12K…I can wait. I like the company philosophies of Chord & Schitts and their Dac builds….if a decent used price comes up, may get that to compare with the D2 card.

You will be very happy with the newer McIntosh integrated! 
 

I now prefer my MA8950’s dac board over the Chord Qutest. The DA2 started to sound better after a few weeks of playing (burn in?) so I won’t go back to the Qutest. Using a Auralic Aries as a streamer.

Wow, didn’t know Mac owned Weiss!

Last year I tried approximately 10 different DAC’s. The DA2 held its own with all of them. Mine is built into a C8. I never had one glitch with the C8 which is more than I can say for all of the other un I tried. There’s something about having the units built by the same manufacturer. also McIntosh owns another DAC manufacture called Weiss, I understand that they are a well respected brand. One last thought, if you buy your unit without the DA2 The dealer can install one for $1500.

I recently upgraded my MA8900 to the DA2 module.  I run an Aurender N100C as my only digital source and the DA2 performs very well.  I think you would have to spend a lot more money on an external DAC to notice big differences over the DA2.  I will say that the DA2 is a big improvement over the DA1 module that was originally installed in my amp.  It does not have issues with USB inputs from the Aurender which was a little finicky with the DA1 module.  You would be very well served with any of the Mac integrated amps and the DA2 DAC.

I have the MA9500 and its DAC sounds amazing. I’ve also owned the top Topping DAC and still have an Eversolo A8 that has a pretty good DAC but not near as full as the Macs DAC. It’s almost like comparing Class AB to D amps. 

@nathandfwacoustics 

Do not discount the quality of the DA2 DAC. I have an outboard DAC that retails for $19K, and it sounds glorious. As far as a price-to-performance ratio is concerned, the DA2 blows my expensive DAC away. You will need to spend upwards of $10K for a DAC to be clearly better than the DA2. Also, it is nonsense that we spend uber bucks for streamers; the DAC is the heart of the digital system. 

@john1629 

Yes better streamers will net you better sound… I agree with you, it is usually hard to see how… until you hear the difference, then you know.

Sonus Faber and DynAudio are great speakers. If you could decide which you like better and sell both and upgrade at 2x you would probably be even happier.

I started with an MA5300, after 1 year, upgraded to a MA8950.  I stream with a Bluesound. Node 2i.  I have two set of wonderful bookshelf speakers, Sonus Faber and Dynaudio (I know, crazy but I can’t decide which ones I like better).  I am always astounded by the beautiful sound I get out of this system and for quite a while, Ive been thinking of upgrading the streamer but haven’t cause what I got sounds that good.  From my research, I trust that the Dac module in the 8950 is perfectly competent. While hard to imagine a big improvement by upgrading the streamer, I know that’s where I should put my money, not in a DAC.  

It was better then a few streamers i've had, including an Aurender A10. Mines in a C2700. took a much more expemcive DAC to outprefomr it. I'd say 4$k and up to get better. not different as many are just that.  

I have a MA 12000 also, with NOS tubes. I like it! The Dac in my Lumin T2 is a touch better than the DA2. But the DA2 beats the heck out of Bluesound Nodes, Cambridge's and the like. Plus... Whenever McIntosh decides to come out with a DA3, it is upgradeable. Buy once, cry once. Another thing I love about the integrated's is fewer power cords and interconnects. Now instead of purchasing many different cables, I can purchase one higher end cable. They add up! 

The DAC is probably good but not at the level of the amp.

I have a MA12000 running NOS tubes.  My sole source is a Pro-Ject StreamBox Ultra 2, plugged into the internal Mac DAC.  It works great, sounds great, and takes up virtually no space.  And yes, the MA12000 never breaks a sweat, regardless of what it's driving.  

All dacs/phono stages built into an integrated amp or separate preamp are comprises vs a good standalone. I had a newer high budget McIntosh preamp a couple of years ago with a built in dac and phono preamp, which didn’t sound anywhere close to my external dac and phono preamp. Now if you have a couple thousand $$$ external dac, then you should compare the dacs to see which 1 you like better.

Other than that, I like the McIntosh integrateds.

Not many products you buy today are built as good as those amps.   75 years building them says a lot.  

@oddiofyl i can run mine all day and it barely breaks a sweat.  When I put my hand on the heat sinks they’re barely warm.  And it sounds outstanding.

Purdy sure thats a ESS Sabre chip and you have to imagine a NOT slouchy implementation. 

Those big McIntosh integrated amps are excellent.  By big I mean the ones with autoformers.  Can drive 4 Ohm speakers all day long and barely get warm 

Lots of integrated amps have built in DACs.  That is the appeal, that you get all sorts of functionality in one box.  Those integrated amps also have phono stages but it’s likely that many folks would tell you to get an external one.  Only you can decide if it’s worth the money.  I have an MA8900 and use an external DAC but don’t for one minute regret buying the integrated amp or think I over paid for what I got.  I could happily live with the DA1 in my 8900 but chose to try something different.  The DA2 is a good DAC.  Buy a streamer with no internal DAC, which most would suggest you do rather than buying a streamer/DAC combo, hook it up to the DA2 and see what you think.  The value proposition of McIntosh is something only you can decide.  There are many excellent integrated amplifiers other than McIntosh, but some of the reasons people buy them are: sonic signature, reliability, support, American made, iconic brand with the blue meters, resale value. If you don’t like the idea of paying for an integrated with built in DAC and phono stage then you can buy separates.  Those separate units will likely cost you more overall than an integrated but you get to choose instead of the manufacturer doing it for you.  You also don’t need to spend $10k on an integrated to get really good performance.

Thank you for the tip

The DA2 card sounds really good for a built in DAC.   My Dad has a MA8950 and it sounds great.   Avoid Eversolo streamers as they do not recognize some DACs via USB, the DA2 is one of them.