in my experience, in a high quality good well balanced well constructed system in a good room, the psa-ds should sound noticeably smoother, significantly more analog, less robotic, if slightly less overtly detailed, than the topping d90 ak or ess chip dac - much more timbral purity and accuracy from a properly working directstream - even with the older versions of the firmware
with sunlight firmware, the psa-ds will bring forward some more etched detail in the treble, and will add more air to the sound stage, while maintaining the warm liquid midrange and mid-bass
those more used to and liking brighter more overtly detailed up front sounding systems can feel the psds with older firmware comes across as somewhat dull...
so if you still have your psa unit it is probably worth having it checked out - their customer service is good - even though it has gotten its last firmware update with no more to come, it is still worth a couple grand plus, so quite worthwhile making sure it is functioning properly |
You know, that may be. I tried installing their most recent firmware upgrade and it wouldn’t install. I never thought about having them check it out for me to see if it was not functioning properly. It’s weird. I thought it was an improvement over the built in DAC on my CD player, back when I first got it, but it sure isn’t up to the Topping. Of course, Arrrgghh! , now I’m wondering what a newer $2k DAC would be like. It never ends. Gonna try to stick with this awhile. |
op
glad to hear you found a dac you like, and a pretty inexpensive one at that
i must say i think there was/is a malfunction of some sort with your psa directstream
anyways, no matter, you are on to something you like better, that is all that matters |
Greetings. I started a thread here not long ago in which I asked for advice about changing DACs. As it turned out, in a testament to the depths of my own doofusness, I screwed up and posted a digital question on an analogue thread, much to my unending shame and consternation. Well, since I’ve already been so exposed, I am back to share another head scratching, defies all logic update. I’m not going to try to explain HOW (much less why) it is I started out asking a question about one set of possible changes, taking in the various responses, and then doing something completely different, I’m just going to tell you what I did and what happened. I ended up replacing a PS Audio Directstream DAC which is as big and heavy as many power amps with a slightly used (still had the plastic on the screen) little black box thingy called the Topping D90SE. In my years in this hobby I have read about MANY more “draw dropping” experiences than I have actually experienced, but this was definitely one of those experiences. Yeah, I’m talking a literal “whoa, Dude, do you hear that?” jaw dropping, let’s-listen-to-another-song-and-another-song and another-source-and-another source kind of experience. One forum reader rather calmly and matter of factly told me that it would be hard to imagine a DAC that both measures and sounds as bad as the PS Audio, and now I know exactly what he was talking about. No wonder I’ve been so frustrated with digital audio. To say that the difference is not subtle is a gross understatement. This is kind of a cheap shot, but I’m kind of worried about Paul McGowans’ hearing. And, to be sure, this little Topping is far from the best DAC that can be had these days. What it does for me though is it puts my ripped CD collection on a level of listenability that approaches decent fidelity for general listening in between the evenings that I sit down with a stack of vinyl for some serious listening. I even find myself grabbing the remote and turning up my background listening because it sounds good enough to no longer just be background. And that’s pretty cool. What is better about the Topping? In a word, everything. Imaging, sound staging, richness, fullness, harmonics, details, everything. Like listening to music instead of listening to the radio. So, there you have it. Thanks again for those who gave opinions. In some roundabout way it led me to where I am. |
By the same token, could analog issues be discussed on the Digital Forum? Most LPs produced since the late 80s have undergone digital processing somewhere along the line.
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@petaluman,
+1.
1 I/V conversion method
2 Power supply quality and robustness
3 Audio signal path layout
4 Analogue output stage design and implementation
I truly believe that these analogue factors could very well be the more critical determinate of the overall sound quality of a DAC.
Charles |
The DAC is the boundary between the digital and analog domains. The digital side has continued to change rapidly because they can generate measurable "improvements" by increasing bit depth or sampling rate. They can math out novel methods of resolution enhancement like HDCD and MQA. Whether or not these result in audible improvements to the listener, they may need to upgrade if their method of music software acquisition delivers new file formats that their DAC cannot process.
The analog side is traditional audio ground - gain stages, power supply quality, impedance matching, grounding - the stuff where ARC figures to be aces. Lastly, the DAC has to manage the interaction between these 2 e-streams.
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Pascon, I guess you’re saying that euphonic makes you feel euphoric.
You digital guys get along much better than we analog guys. I have rarely if ever seen such a consensus of opinion on the Analog Forum. |
Honestly, the Border Patrol Dac is all you need....once you hear one, you will be hooked. Forget about all the hi-res non sense...this dac sounds analog...r2r, no filtering, tubed power supply. one person’s opinion above mine is rather different, the pursuit is to find something better in our systems and take/enjoy the journey towards that end... have cake and eat it too, so to speak the b-p dac was in my system for about a month, i moved on... other dacs at the same price level surpassed it in ’analog-ness’ AND detail/transparency/air... |
Honestly, the Border Patrol Dac is all you need....once you hear one, you will be hooked. Forget about all the hi-res non sense...this dac sounds analog...r2r, no filtering, tubed power supply. |
@pascon
If you like a warmer sound perhaps the $3k EVO 100 Tube DAC. It got many positive reviews and I believe it's a solid choice at it's price point.
I concur that the ~$5k HoloAudio – May DAC may be the best at it's price point, punching above it's price point.
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My Benchmark DAC3B is a favorite of mine. I have no complaints about it. However, a friend who also owns it and has a musicians background tells me that it sounds lean because it does not have much bottom end. I do not see it that way but do see a lot of people criticize the DAC3 line for this lean sounding characteristic. |
@roxy54 Thanks I enjoy it very much!
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I believe that Benchmark offers a 30 day (So plenty of time to thoroughly sort it out) trial period. Take advantage and listen in your home. you may possibly find you like their sonic signature/characteristics.
Charles |
Someone posted a very well-stated case for the Benchmark DAC3, I read it at work and had to put it aside. Now I’ve gone back to look for it to read it more carefully, and it seems to have disappeared. He probably thought it would fall on deaf ears, but that is not the case. I’d really like the chance to carefully consider and respond to that post. I think the name was Robert. Care to send again? |
Secret guy: Boy, you got that right. My ex-wife is from Pitt ( Homestead) and I was figuring that the Hawks had a pretty good chance with the Stillers this year. She of course said, Ha! Now whatya think? I said, Gulp! I think we can count on old Ben to blow it so we shall yet prevail. She said, Keep dreaming. |
pascon...the timing is good for us Steeler fans ;) |
@pascon,
Reading your comments lead me to conclude that you are going to be fine moving forward. You've reached the crossroads of realization. You have to choose audio equipment based on what I believe is the most important criteria, what do "you" like. Simple admittedly philosophically but sometimes it takes awhile to get there.
All the frequent talk (Angst?) about ever more detail and resolution. These qualities are worthy of pursuit but only if they are congruent with musical enjoyment and heightening your emotional engagement and spontaneous reactions to what you're listening to.musicality and pure visceral connection along with high resolution are not incompatible.
But if listening to a component or system sounds clinical/analytical/sterile dry and lifeless don't let someone convince you that, oh it's just accurate, neutral and very detailed, BS! It you are not thoroughly engaging and could continue listening for hours then something is wrong. Music listening should be fully enjoyable and compelling to your satisfaction. Per your posts above I can see that you have come to that recognition. I heard the Holo May level 3 DAC in my audio system (A loan from a friend). Very nice sounding but I'd choose @jond older generation Audio Note DAC 3 if ultimate musical involving listening were the stated objective. That's just me, others might prefer the Holo May DAC.
Charles |
What your seeking from your system is likely what we're all seeking. Sounds like you've already made up your mind DirectStream is not and won't be future solution (even with factory upgrades) for you. In this case, you'll get a multitude of advice as to what dac to purchase. Since your streaming, Per David_Ten make sure whatever input you choose has been optimized within dac.
Again, your present dac pretty good, especially with the factory upgrades. To get substantially better sound you need to spend in $10k range. Check out Verdant audio thread for nice dacs in this price range. There are some value dacs out there that would also be somewhat of an improvement. Dacs in the range of DirectStream price are more difference of flavor than substantially better or worse. There are no miracle dacs, no single dac stands head and shoulder above others. $10-20K dacs sota, $7-!5K sota or near, DirectStream price range next tier. Dacs that would be substantially better than yours would include Rockna Wavedream, Aqua Formula, Mola Mola Tambaqui. Again, I'd suggest Holo May, this is likely the preeminent dac at around $5k. I've never seen even a mediocre review of this dac, most say its revelation at price, competes with $10k crew.
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David_ten: Yeah, that’s a very good point. Gonna have to think about that.
Secret guy: Beats me. I thought I submitted under the digital forum. Whoops.
I was bemoaning the fact that the Seahawks will be without Russell Wilson for most of the season. The significant other, in a moment of insensitivity, said Is that the most important thing in the world? I said, Of course not. Deciding on a new DAC is! |
Here’s what I think I’ve learned about myself. If I’m reading the Forum, or a review, or audio related article that is in some way descriptive of sound quality, or if we were having a conversation about the same, I would tell you that I want my music to be as transparent as possible. No coloration. But, if I’m listening in an audio store, or at a friends listening party, or more significantly if I’m buying a component, I end up liking and wanting the euphoric, the “slightly warmer, plusher-than-neutral” sound. Furthermore, I think that if I’m honest with myself and you, the reason I would tell you I want neutral transparency is because at some level I have the idea that’s what an audiophile is SUPPOSED to want. I’m probably being too honest and transparent for my own good here. LOL If you came to my house and I told you my system sounds awesome, you might say let me hear it. So, we’d listen, and you’d agree. Nice system. Sounds great. BUT, you might say, it’s a little warm. A little rolled off at the top end. Does that suddenly negate my declaration that it’s “awesome” and your agreement that it’s “great”? If it does, then neither one of us really know what we’re talking about, do we? No system is perfect. At least no system that I’ll ever be able to afford. So, if I prefer the warm side of perfection and you prefer the cooler, more transparent side of perfection, are you right and I’m wrong? I don’t think so. What I’ve realized is that I might tell you that I prefer music that passes through my ears to my brain, but the truth is I really prefer music that passes through my ears to my heart. You all weighing in on my original question about DAC's has kind of helped me to realize and admit that. Is there a question in there? Nope. Just thought I’d ramble for a bit. Thanks again for the input.
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The Directstream is nice dac, not the greatest resolving, but I'd stick with it vs. others you mention. op should make sure, if he hasn't already, that his direct stream unit has the latest firmware download from ted smith, called 'sunlight'... provides substantially improved sense of resolution than the prior versions which overly smoothed the sound |
Also, why is this in the Analog forum? |
The best move is often doing nothing. |
If you were open to other options on dac. Look at Holo May, likely best value high end dac with sound signature you're looking for.
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I'd only say modern dacs are generally higher resolution than older. Higher resolving powers is the general movement, more analog, natural flavor is the other, this not universal. My choice would go with most modern dac one can afford.
Within context of my not having heard any of dacs your speaking of, and based on my impressions from other's reviews, seems your making more of a lateral move than progressing. The Directstream is nice dac, not the greatest resolving, but I'd stick with it vs. others you mention.
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@pascon You are receiving solid advice from the members who have posted above. Despite my love for and appreciation of the DAC 7, here is a caution to consider. Please note I am not trying to talk you out of the DAC 7. If you were / are using a CD Transport as your primary source, this would not apply. You posted that you are streaming via an Aurender N100H....therefore digital input / output specs will factor in. This is from ARC's archive database: USB: Spec 1.0 to 2.0 16 BIT 32kHz to 48kHz, MAC or PC. RCA: 75 ohm SPDIF 16/32 to 24/192. BNC: 75 ohm SPDIF 16/32 to 24/192. XLR: 110 ohm AES/EBY 16/32 to 24/192. OPT: 660 NM TOSLINK FIBER 16/32 to 24/192 Pointing out that you will be limited in the file resolutions and sampling rates, given where current streaming is at and where it's moving (running) to in the near future. If you move away from MAC (i.e. Aurender) and go to Windows then USB drivers will also factor in. In particular, the USB spec of the DAC7 is very limiting. |
The Benchmark DAC3 HGC is a good DAC but not that great as a preamp, I used it that way in the past. There is a reason Benchmark makes the LA4 and HPA4 preamp. These preamps will make the DAC3 sound better.
I doubt you would be happy with the Benchmark stack if you like the warm DirectStream and the Audio Research gear. The Benchmark gear has 0 warmth to them. I have the DAC3B and LA4 and it sounds good to me with my warm CODA #8 amp. They also sound good with my ultra neutral Benchmark AHB2 mono amps.
You can always get the Benchmark gear on the 30 day home trial. |
op
my 2 cents
modern lower cost dacs do not blow away well respected well performing older dacs
good modern dacs indeed sound different... the difference in sound on a high resolution well assembled system is immediate and obvious
good luck on your pursuit, hope you find something you are really happy with
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Great DAC you have there jond! |
@pascon,
The Benchmark DAC has its admirers as well who find it awesome and believe that it is accurate, neutral and true to the recording source. They would counter that the ARC DAC 7 and Audionote DACs are simply pleasingly colored. So two different and yet credible perspectives (No surprises there). As always subjective and personal.
Charles |
@david_ten,
"Agree with the other members who advise against the Benchmark (for your specific case / situation).
Former ARC DAC7 owner. It’s very good; a standout when it was released and offered"
Yep, Agree!! And +1 @jond and @ghdprentice , wise counsel indeed. Current entry level DACs aren’t "blowing away" older generation high quality DACs in terms of sound quality.
If you’re more interested in features/number of inputs/impressive specs on paper that’s a different choice. In terms of sound quality and engaging reproduction of music I’d without hesitation go with the ARC DAC7 (And definitely @jond’s older Audio Note 3 DAC).
Charles |
You guys have been very helpful, and I thank you. If I’d swapped out for the Benchmark and found it to be bright I would have been a very unhappy camper. And the point of ARC being synergistic is a good one, I think. |
Agree with the other members who advise against the Benchmark (for your specific case / situation).
Former ARC DAC7 owner. It's very good; a standout when it was released and offered.
Do you have a budget you can share? |
I think you ask very good questions. I have swapped a number of streamers, DACs, well everything actually over the last decade… a couple times… along with extensive research.
First, no, entry level DACs will not blow away older high end DACs. Obviously there is a certain amount of, “it depends” in there. But I would unhesitatingly buy the Audio Research DAC 7. My personal opinion is Benchmark will imprint a detailed, analytical imprint on your system that will rob it of much of its musicality.
Aurender, Audio Research SP16.. excellent components.. definitely get the ARC DAC7. The ARC stuff is very synergistic (click on my user I’d to see my system) the DAC7 will be exceptionally musical… no comparison with Benchmark. I use a ARC CD9se as my DAC and brought home a Berkeley Alpha 3 DAC ($22K) and compared with my ARC… the difference was miniscule, but the ARC sounded better and at an initial cost of $5K less..
I think the ARC DAC 7 would put you on a course for a really amazing system. Years from now you can upgrade any of the components and you are in a perfect synergistic situation to go up the Aurender and ARC ladder. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate I slowly moved into the all ARC component route.. it has led to an incredible, detailed and musical system. The synergy is amazing. |
For reference my Dac an Audio Note Dac-3 Signature is 25 years old and sounds fantastic to my ears.
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I have heard the previous version of the Benchmark dac and found it a little bright sounding. Perhaps it could be tamed with cables? The ARC is a very smooth sounding DAC and will be more voiced to your present system. I know a lot of people who love the Benchmark, I am not one of them. |
Hmm...interesting, jond. Thanks. You think that either one of the older DAC's will sound better than Benchmark's latest and greatest. That's interesting.
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The Etsuro Urushi Gold is excellent.
If that is too expensive go for the Etsuro Blue.
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Either options 1 or 2 will sound better than option 3, good sound is good sound don't get overly caught up in either technology or reviews.
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