Critical listening and altered states

@dabel, being a parent I know how serious that must be.  I trust all will work out but please let us know.
George

Patty?

PS Music You like "substitute" drugs and alcohol, doesn't it? 

For me, a cup of a good green or black tea is good. I do not support the use of drags since  the effect lasts for a short while (one cannot be drugged all the time...) and yields conflicts with "the reality" and causes the dependence.  Unfortunately our minds are constantly altered, but perhaps, the less the better.  I would like to live in "Like a rolling stone" mood all the time, but this is virtually impossible. 

Decided to try altered states last night. Russian vodka, Forum Mendo, Mezcal, QSA Stones. They tell you not to eat the worm. Don't eat the worm. https://youtu.be/40FiMy-ak0k?t=18

Forgot to mention subjective physical qualities of our individual brain/ears. Makes me wonder if a truly objective mind can even exist within the ascetic?

This word, objectivity, seems to be so misused these days. In regard to listening to an audio system, I could argue its used as what in reality is a subjective state. Objective listening as used here is in reality an evaluative or judgemental state. This is a state with so many subjective variable impositions as to be perhaps the most subjective state one could exist in.

I'd suggest the most objective state humans can exist in are those of the ascetic mind. A state where no desires, wants, needs exist. In this state no judgment or conscious thought exists. In this state, the mind is freed from past and future, only living in the moment. I can only wonder how the mind would interpret sound emanating from an audio system in this truly objective state.
Anyway, I'd suggest the closest we come to an objective state when listening to audio systems is when we are no longer judging the quality of sound, we are only listening to the music emanating from that system. The music takes over the mind, we are living in the moment!

And so, objectivity as used here is in fact one of the most subjective states one could be in. In judgmental state we aren't free from all our prejudices informed by our individual experiences, needs, desires.

I'm not saying there isn't a place for judgmental listening, but understand its not an objective state. Plenty of evidence for that by all the different evaluations of the same equipment, and even by the high likelihood one's system is totally unique amongst all systems on this earth.

"The reason is that long term pot users I've known always end up with the same identifiable traits....poor work ethic, lowered responsibility, less desire to achieve anything, same stupid look on their faces. Long term alcohol users do not seem to go down the gurgler like that. Yes there will exceptions. And in not talking excessive use, I'm sure excessive alcohol brings a person firm too.
I'd rather employ a mild drinker than a mild pot smoker. I don't wanna end up like the pot users"

I enjoy Marijuana, not just for the euphoric effect.....    in fact I'm a medical patient and there is no cure for my ailment but Marijuana definitely eases my pain....  

And as far as work ethic, I often work 10 , 12 hour days....  sometimes longer.  I work for a fall down drunk whose output can be measured with a shot glass.   My customers wait weeks because they only want me to work on their equipment .   My return call rate is lower than any of my peers....  I often go to fix their mistakes....  dont paint with such a broad brush....    such a stupid commentary 

"Thank you for mentioning this! I looked it up. Very cool.

I have to say, that I disagree. I prefer Diana Krall's version of it."

..as can be said about 'nearly' anything or subject analyzed, discussed, touted, or dissed here...

I think Zeke  had been in the desert way too long....probably common back then.

'Us'?
Debris from somewhere...alien 'hamburger' containers....or their pet...

I think Ezekiel did some critical writing in an altered state...

Thank you for mentioning this! I looked it up. Very cool.
I have to say, that I disagree. I prefer Diana Krall's version of it

I'm not sure how to respond to that???
Cassandra Wilson does a version also which at least takes it somewhere new.  

I'm not much of a DKrall fan but has she ever written a song?

Of course we all know it wasn't a space ship. It was a DC-8 
https://youtu.be/BU2EUfinwHo?t=60

Umm..yes we are humans. We didn’t land here on a UFO space ship.

Are you sure.
The first chapter of Ezekiel 
http://spaceshipsofezekiel.com/html/ships-05-b.html#:~:text=Verse%205%3AEzekiel%20sees%20the%20four%....

Sounds to me like they were just checking up on their science experiment.

these arguments are much about words and semantics. if we all were talking face to face and could work out our exact meanings our differences would be minor.

but no doubt they are enjoyable exercises as long as we don't take ourselves too seriously. :-)  

@mikelavigne Exactly. We know the scientific structure for salt, but not for salty. As Aristotle pointed out, not everything affords exactitude.

science cannot define art. music = art.

therefore all musical judgments are subjective.

OTOH ’sound’ can be measured and expressed objectively. the significance of those measurements in judging musical performance? that’s a matter of opinion.

@mastering92

Umm..yes we are humans. We didn’t land here on a UFO space ship.
….We can grow organs and clone living things. Think about that for a minute. It seems you are too deep into the ocean of your own ideas to comprehend much else...

This is insulting. I cannot take more time to educate you. I’ve been thinking and writing about objectivity, ethics, scientific method, and more for 25 years. I've explained these things to thousands of reasonably well-educated students, but I admit that some are insulated from new thinking. Objectivity teaches me that there are brick walls when it comes to learning. And to my own ability to conjure up the right phrases for abject density.

Let’s agree to end this here; you can think I’m ignorant and I’ll do the same.

How about if I hire a robot for the objective listening, it will disabuse me of  my emotional connection, aka delusional pleasures of connecting with the music. Millercarbon reminded me the machine/robot doesn't hear. In that case I have to do the objective listening, which I now find out isn't possible with humans.

I'm ok with all this, I'll simply listen and build my system based on what's pleasurable to me.

I feel pretty strongly that I ought to be sober when evaluating gear. Costs too much not to be.

My reference point is that typically an album I first listened to with a high or buzz on and then listened to a week later, more often than not, sounded like junk.

YMMV

For instance, Diana Krall - Black Crow

It's a cover of a Joni Mitchell song. Mathematically it may measure better but its a pales in musical comparison to the original.  
I'm in this hobby to feel, to have a song take me somewhere.  This is a great example of technician vs musician.  
Joni not only wrote it but performed it.  Is performance measurable?  I have a (maybe unhealthy) connection with Joni Mitchell.  A lot of singers attempt Joni Mitchell songs but like kissing your sister (don't have a sister so I really wouldn't know)  it's not the same.

I think that "critical listening" isn't just about being frequency response, accuracy and all the other attributes you want to assign it but it's all about the only thing that really matters which is the music.

In this society where strong emotions are stifled if an enhanced state of mind helps you emotional  connect to sound and rhythm then it's critical listening.  I you are listening with a measuring microphone more power to you but  you are only getting a partial picture of what is really happening.

Objective reasoning can be thought of as thinking like a machine.

A machine...
Designed by a human.
With metrics set by humans and human science.
With output defined by humans.
With output interpreted by humans.

The trail of the human serpent is over everything. Nothing is objective. It’s just that some results are easier to agree upon and are more easily repeated.

What science accomplishes is intersubjective agreement that is based on *stipulated* standards -- which were invented and stipulated to accomplish a purpose.

The kind of objectivity you’re representing here is hardly defended any longer. It relies on a correspondence to an independent reality which is, by definition, inaccessible. That kind of reality may have a place in religion, but not in science.

P.S. Because any sound is only a part of an interactive circuit involving music-gear-ears-brain-interpretation, then the very division into subjective and objective is impossible. Even medical researchers (let alone philosophers) are suspicious of the idea. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/theres-no-such-thing-as-an-objective-view-of-something

Equally important it is not a zero sum game.

Good points.

@mastering92

To listen critically - We need to put our energy into the power of objective reasoning and honest observations.

Here’s where you and I may see things differently. I am in the field of philosophy. Every argument which is offered, and every counter-argument claims "objective reasoning." The issue becomes, what is selected as relevant to the objective argument? What is left out? What is emphasized? The history of thought (not just philosophy) is full of people who try to claim their argument is ultimate because it is objective. But that word, objective, is just stone soup. What else is in there? That’s where the interesting stuff happens. The word objective is not a trump card among people who know how to argue.

@mikelavigne

OTOH in the particular audiophile journey i am on, i am as interested in how some change makes me feel emotionally in a right brain context, as objectively what my left brain thinks it hears. am i being drawn into the music? is my body happy?

This identifies the exact way in which objectivity hits the shoals, for me. Mike is right -- this is about mind-and-body, and since listening is also done with our body, the detachment necessary for rational objectivity is insufficient if not downright destructive of what some of us consider the experience of music.

@mastering92

What do you mean by this?

there is no winning or losing in hifi. it a hobby. no race track or finish line. it’s about enjoyment of music, and/or gear. maybe building gear, or anything related. maybe it’s about collecting, or interior design. i’ve seen and known people who have all those perspectives; either singularly or together.

and being an audiophile is simply appreciating the quality of music reproduction. it’s a perspective. your circumstances do not determine your mind set. you may have limited choices for various reasons or asset allocation decisions, but perspective is free. and there are matters of taste, preference, and musical choices and living situations that push our priorities.

so we all can approach decisions with our own method. certainly i like mine and am happy to share it and the why behind it.

and i would bet if we were to sit down face to face and discuss this issue, our approaches would have much in common.

@jdane,
"Tacitus (I think) says the Germanic tribes used to make decisions: (1) at night when they were all sh*t-faced, and (2) in the morning when they were sober. They only followed their own counsel if the decision was the same in both cases."

Thanks for sharing. Great advice that’s almost a parable for life.



@ianb52,
"There is a paradox that with certain altered states the detail of perception and emotional intensity are increased, but the ability to do focused critical listening (left brain-type activity) becomes difficult and not fun. These states can key you into what is abrasive in a system, what feels intuitively good, and what is getting in the way, but not in the usual deliberate way."


It’s difficult to describe but I think you’ve nailed it. It’s certainly problem for me and one that I try to circumvent, almost anyway, anyhow.


However, the term ’critical listening’ is almost a contradiction in terms, at least for me. I always listen better when I’m relaxed.
Therefore the two things I most like to have before sitting down to listen are a comfortable seat and as much background peace and quiet as possible.


Having said that, a degree of constant low frequency noise and chatter are ok, but no sudden alarms and no surprises. https://youtu.be/qNWE_2avJT0

To listen critically - We need to put our energy into the power of objective reasoning and honest observations.

i suppose we have ’sub-hobbies’ within our hobby of being a music loving audiophile. so there are no rules. no right or wrong approach to critical listening. no incorrect mind sets we are trying to be in.

OTOH in the particular audiophile journey i am on, i am as interested in how some change makes me feel emotionally in a right brain context, as objectively what my left brain thinks it hears. am i being drawn into the music? is my body happy?

unless i can get into a mental mode where i am capable of being open to the power of the music to capture me, my critical listening session cannot be relied on to get the whole picture. so my fist step is always making sure that i’m happy and content and comfortable......and free of distractions including excessive expectations. i need to just be listening to music with my mind free to let it happen. i call it my ’zen’ place.

after now 27 years of very serious system building and room building, this is the viewpoint i have learned that works best for me.

being cold and calculating and objective = a system result target accordingly. how can it not? which is a different result and sub-hobby than mine. and my experience tells me the stress of attempts at purely objective listening clouds the whole musical truth. we should avoid trying too hard.

i’m not saying that there are not situations that call for short term objective listening; for instance whenever i’m setting up a cartridge there is a degree of objective analysis going on. but it’s not how i would make a larger system direction decision or gear choice. if i’m not enjoying my critical listening session, how often am i capable of doing it?

my really extended critical listening sessions are likely my most satisfying periods of my audiophile experience. and leave me feeling fulfilled and in a great place mentally.

YMMV.

More good stuff.

@vinocour 

When I evaluate gear or make buying decisions that are chemically enhanced, even slightly, I often do not agree with myself when the enhancement has worn off or I listen to a choice over time. I currently never make buying decisions while in an enhanced state.

Agree. My OP is not necessarily asking, "Do you rely *totally* on enhancements to evaluate gear or decide on a purchase?" That seems like an easy thing to decline. The question is about prompting oneself to see all possible angles (at some point) for an evaluative judgement later on, in a (likely) a sober state of mind.

@oregonpapa papa

I tried pot once. It made me want to rape and kill.

Interesting. Made me want to doodle and canoodle. Perhaps alert your local Sheriff about those underlying tendencies?
 
@old_ears 

Is your "pleasure" from evaluating, or being one with the sound...mutually exclusive, both can be fulfilling. Give me both grasshopper!

Agree. Evaluation can be a means to an end or an end in itself. Honestly, I do enjoy evaluating for its own sake and also as a tool to improve  immersive listening. My OP is asking about whether the technologies of occasional psychological enhancement can improve evaluative listening done for the purpose of better immersive listening.

@mastering92 

If I’m listening to audio gear for the purpose of evaluating it, I am completely focused on objective performance. I don’t need coffee or anything else to concentrate.

Right. The question isn't about the ability to concentrate. I think most here can do that, as it's something we learned in elementary school. This is about whether the deliveries of focus can be expanded and enriched by finding ways beyond existing prejudices and preconceptions. (This is how we gain an appreciation for things we either disregarded or formed a rash opinion about.) But this is probably just autobiographical, that is, about my own expectation that while I'm a pretty good listener, I'd be able to surpass my present abilities if I reconsider what I'm doing once in a while. I get the sense that you're way past me, because your statement indicates that you have become a master listener whose abilities needs nothing -- not even coffee -- as they have reached the zenith. If that is true, congratulations; you are a master sommelier of sound.

"Well, class...what have we learned?"

To each, their own.

The Search brings you to what you seek.  Hopefully....

...except.....for some....who always will find 'the Next Level' a mere point to leap to the next....What... ;)

Enjoy, J *S*

Even the right CBD will make your hearing more acute like THC does

I've always thought of it more as cathartic.

What’s a goal, if not the goal, of audio? To produce a euphoric state. It seems there are many paths towards that goal, and that they may overlap.

    A certain revered string agitator once said: "are you experienced? not necessarily stoned, but experienced?"  Pleasure without analysis is immersive listening- the right brain; critical listening- the left...  Actually producing music by a trained performer-both sides now.
  Is your "pleasure" from evaluating, or being one with the sound...mutually exclusive, both can be fulfilling.  Give me both grasshopper!

It doesn't alter your state of mind, but I must say that the big jar of CBD cream that my daughter bought me does wonders on my knee pain and my neuropathy suffering feet. Pain is gone about 20-30 minutes after application. Highly recommended.

Frank

...I just do my best to keep it out of the minds of those who would merely abuse it....a bit of Service to the States....*s*

@grannyring

just now, i did try the Quboz 16/44 streaming version of track #11 of Sempre Libera, and i also heard the extreme distortion pulse on peaks. very annoying. sorry about that. i do not recall ever hearing that.

my guess is that either it’s simply a bad transfer, or possibly this recording has no limiters used and it’s too hot somehow. it might be fun to question Quboz about why that is happening and see how they respond.

to make sure this was a Quboz issue, i also sampled my dsd and 24/88 files and they played perfectly as always.

please let me know how the redbook sounds. thanks.

Weed, shrooms, mdma and ketamine. All different and all incredible when done right. Ket does make it hard to change the record, best get it done before your bump hits. But then you are just so present in the moment and able to appreciate music in ways you never could have imagined.
Lsd often takes me to a place where music makes little sense, unlike shrooms or majic truffles. the ultimate is combining mdma and shrooms, or mandy and k, but only when safely at home- unlike mdma, k is a party killer and was banned from our raves and festivals. Too much stumbling. But fun at home or in a safe environment.

Friends,
When I evaluate gear or make buying decisions that are chemically enhanced, even slightly, I often do not agree with myself when the enhancement has worn off or I listen to a choice over time.  I currently never make buying decisions while in an enhanced state.

When I evaluate gear or make buying decisions when I am in a naturally clear, settled and analytic state of mind, then the music is almost always engaging and satisfying when I am listening in an enhanced state. 

For me personally, my mood is important for the selection of what I listen to.  Sometimes late Beethoven string quartets transport me to someplace heavenly, sometimes I do not have the "ears" to listen for more than 2-3 minutes.  Sometimes it is Phillip Glass or Avro Paert.  Sometimes it isn't classical.  Rather Patricia Barber or other vocal jazz does it, or instrumental jazz like Oded Tzur, sometime I need Pink Floyd, or The Rolling Stones, or Tina Dico, or ambient electronic, or Indonesian Gammelan Orchestra, or Carnatic music . . . .  Yes, my tastes are varied and eclectic.

Listening for pleasure, to be nourished is a different kind of endeavor compared to listening to compare components.  Both of these listening contexts can be completely enjoyable and satisfying yet they are quite different.

I know I will never hear "the best" anything, only what pleases me the most at the time of listening based on my personal preferences and state of mind.

So much enjoyment and nourishment in music well performed, well recorded and well reproduced.  To each his own.

@oregonpapa 

You had the good stuff!