Counterfeit Chinese Cables
I thought that I would write this for those who are curious about one of the many counterfeit Chinese interconnect cables that are available these days. I know that there have been threads about the subject before, and I was always curious because they seem to be such a bargain. I don't really recall much about what any members actually said about the performance of these counterfeit cables, and I didn't look back and do any research, but a couple of months ago there was a thread that came around to discussing the quality of Chinese made components, and oldhvymec said something that made sense to me.
He said that people that say that what they are making is junk should consider that much of what is in our gear, and a lot of our American brands are actually manufactured there. I decided shortly after that that I would take the chance on a set of interconnects, because I suspected that the interconnects going from my pre to my amp were the weak link and needed upgrading. The interconnects going from my DAC to my pre were Kimber Select which are very good, but the other set were LAT International (now defunct) which had cost $500.00 when new, but I had reason to believe they were lacking because I have one of their digital cables that turned out to be very poor sounding in comparison to others I own.
I decided on a one meter pair of counterfeit Nordost Odin interconnects for a total of $104.00 from Aliexpress. I received them a couple of weeks later. They appeared to be well made, and the locking fake WBT rca's were very impressive and are very tight.
First impressions after installing them were light, thin sound, lacking bass. Each couple of days brought improvements, but from the beginning I noticed that they were quieter. Now, weeks later, I can say that they are drastically better that the LAT's in every way. Detail and ambience are much better, but it's the focus and separation of instruments that is most noticeable.
I have no way of knowing if they are really a copy of the Nordost design, but I am impressed enough that I am going to try a counterfeit Nordost digital cable.
Obviously, this isn't a comparison that is useful to most, because there probably isn't anyone here using the LAT's, and everything is system dependent. I just wanted to relay my positive experience.
"I’m a FIRM believer to get the most out of my system no matter what the cost would be." You contradict yourself. If you won't spend $180.00, then obviously the cost matters very much. You can find a number of types of solid copper banana terminations on walmart.com for very cheap prices, less than a tenth of $180.00. I am only trying to point out that using inferior bananas is creating a bottleneck in the performance of your cables.
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@roxy54 it’s not a point of contradiction, the rite way is to just not use anything but just the bare wire itself. I doubt even if I use bare wire & any connectors & play music in Mono. I don’t think I’ll hear the difference with my speakers, which are very efficient. See my stup for yourself. |
To get an idea behind Chinese knock-offs from original cable product, one must understand at least partially Asian mentality that is still shared in depth between nearly ALL Asian nations like China, Japan, Thailand, Vietnam etc... For their level of education (at least a lot more intense and deep than Western education), they certainly figured out that by "just listening" you won't be able to tell any differences between original one and knock-off that is 20x cheaper. To get even deeper idea, they do study 20 times HARDER for their academics so they can mock every Western ingenuine approach for profit. Nearly same applies to anyone who wants to purchase and terminate them for reselling. Unfortunately @juanmanuelfangioii your situation of losing millions because of that is self-evidently explainable. Technically everyone wants to live for the costs of the others, but those who do that for a lot less do take the upper hand and no matter how HARD you will try to go after those that make you lose money, I guarantee you won't find any success there... In any business, if you cannot rise bridge, you have to lower the river. |
@roxy54 , maan you are DEFINITELY #1 watcher for the correct spelling and grammer. A true and dedicated language pro or even Nazi... I myte consider doin' wrong spelling on perpuz so to be entertained by your ansorz :-) Sorry for exposed roxy-pot-roast recipe. |
Thanks for the compliment. I let most of them pass because with many, like yourself, English is not their primary language, and I admire those who are bilingual which I am not. That said, we can all learn from corrections, and be better for it. When a person uses improper spelling, punctuation or conjugation in written words, I think readers lose respect for them. |
@roxy54 brass is much maligned nowadays but it has been the metal of choice for connectors for almost a century. Oh yes, some good pure copper or silver (if you can afford those) might be even better, but my Chinese Valhalla SC sound so fabulous with their original, chinese brass bananas that I doubt I’ll ever bother to swap them. I’m not in a hurry anyways. |
If I had speaker cables like those that were already terminated, I wouldn’t try to reterminate them because you might run into trouble if you’re not really experienced. Having said that, I had read in recent years that brass wasn’t as good as conductor as copper, so I decided to change the binding posts on my speakers to KLE low mass copper from the heavy brass ones that they came with, and the positive sonic difference was noticeable. More recently, I bought a different set of speakers that are single wire, and I had a bit of a problem, because my favored cables were an internally biwired set. For a few weeks I used them with the unused banana plugs just hanging out in free space, obviously not a good idea. I then remembered that I had for many years these Monster cable heavy brass banana five-way things that would allow me to put the other two banana terminated wired in contact with the speaker. I lived with that for several weeks until I remembered that I had seen some piggyback bananas once, and if I could find them it would solve my problem. I did some research and found solid copper piggyback bananas on walmart.com (of all places!) for $19.00 for the 4 pieces that I needed. The were made with set screws (no soldering) and I did the job two days ago. Punchline, the difference sonically is a revelation! For the first time in three months, I am realizing how good my speakers really are. I am still shocked. I have since looked at binding posts and RCA’s on walmart.com, and it turns out that they are a great source for these things at extremely affordable prices. |
Rolox. Do your Chinese Valhalla SC have the large ( approximately 3 inch by 3 inch wood sections) that the clear plastic portion wire runs thru) ? Aliexpress shows 2 different versions.... One with the aforementioned wood blocks...its referred to as Nordost Valhalla 2 Reference. The other, less expensive version, is call Valhalla 2. |
I rather like the knockoff Odins. I needed another XLR cable a few years back and having read about the fakes sounding good (I think) in another thread, I thought I’d give it a try. I figured as long as I wouldn’t want to take them out immediately upon hearing them I’d be satisfied. And I wasn’t expecting much, quite frankly. I replaced a genuine Nordost Quattro Fil with the fake Odins. And, to my delight, I didn’t feel the need to put the QF’s immediately back in. The Chinese cables sounded great so I didn’t bother with ABing them. Then I needed some speakers cables and went the fake Odin route again. This time the fakes replaced a genuine Analysis Plus Silver Ovals. Results the same as when I swapped out the XLRs. Great bang for the buck products, IMO. |
@tksteingraber which Ali store did you buy the Valhalla speaker cables from? There seems to be many different cables at different prices, all using the Valhalla name. Thanks. |
@bigtwin I don’t think these cables will compete with your DIY VH Audio cables you built. I don’t think it matters which store you buy from its all the same wire they use. Connectors vary and I would pick the ones you like best. I bought mine from Sound Labs and they used bananas to spades under the brand Audiocrast which I preferred. I don’t like them using brand names. They sound great on my system but I am unable to justify buying big $ cables. Also, I bought 30mm black flex cable sleeve to cover the wide flat cable. |
MY ALI-E POST FROM 10/22: Even though as soon as I hit play my Neardost Odin 2 speaker cables trounced the well known/reviewed and expensive cables that I had for about 2 years; last night (about a week since inserting) I played Dianna Krall ALL FOR YOU (Impulse), I haven’t listened to any of her discs since in quite a while (too many CDs, so little time), The sound was complete and intimate, I felt as though I had been transported to the venue.
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@tksteingraber @tweak1 Thanks. The likelihood of the ALI cables sounding better than my VH is pretty slim. The Ali cable is using 7 stands of wire per side. The CHeLA OCC speaker cable is made of 48 individually insulated 24 AWG SOLID OCC (Ohno Continuous Cast) copper conductors that are insulated with VH Audio's AirLok� dielectric. VH Audio's AirLok� dielectric is a proprietary form of foamed/cellular Fluoropolymer that has a dielectric constant of LESS than 1.5 and an extremely low dielectric absorption. The 48 OCC copper conductors are braided into VH Audio's Counter Helical Litz Array TM geometry (C.He.L.A.) around a core containing strands of unbleached cotton. This special self-shielding speaker cable geometry results in very low inductance (.011 uH*), reasonable capacitance (230 pF*), and low DCR (1.35 milliohms per foot*). Additionally, the CHeLA geometry results in more symmetrical field interaction between strands vs. conventional braided designs. Aggregate AWG for each grouping of 24 conductors is 11 AWG, and approximate cable diameter is 3/4" (cut and pasted from VH site) I keep coming back to the number of people on this thread who claim these inexpensive replicas are the best sounding cables they have heard. Not sure why this thread continues to fascinate. The idea that a $200 Ali cable is going to bring a big improvement in sound is silly? And yet we in the hobby continue to chase the dream regardless of what common sense tells us. Tweak1 Can I ask what "well known/reviewed and expensive cables " you were referring to? Thanks. |
@bigtwin Since your DIY post I have been thinking about trying VH ‘s Chela wire and work on my hand/eye coordination🤪. If you do purchase the Valhalla I would be interested in how the SQ compares. Yes, this hobby is a continual search for better SQ frequently defying logic. I have found that quite often new tubes, cables, fuses or other tweaks the sound is not necessarily better but just different. I find it nice to have those SQ choices for your mood or music type. And the search goes on! |
"I keep coming back to the number of people on this thread who claim these inexpensive replicas are the best sounding cables they have heard. Not sure why this thread continues to fascinate. The idea that a $200 Ali cable is going to bring a big improvement in sound is silly? " And yet you haven't tried it, so how can you have an opinion? |
@tksteingraber While not being a total denier of cables, as are some members on the site, I must admit I have never once heard a big change in sound when cables have been replaced. Maybe it's because I started out with quality cables? I would love to have the experience I read about on this site. How swapping out an interconnect suddenly brings about these changes/improvements that are just so noticeable. But for me, it just has never happened. It's just been a LOT of money spent, and no big improvement. Keep in mind, my system sounds great. Maybe I just need to accept there isn't really anywhere to go at this point? |
The fact there is so much thread about cables improvement and very few compared to cables about mechanical vibrations controls about the lowering of the noise floor and about the EMI shielding not to speak about not only important room acoustic controls and not mere passive treatment but also about acoustics concepts and experiments say a lot about the ignorance level...And i will not speak about homemade "tweaks" because i will be labelled "tin foil hat" ... I forgot to say most thread are about purchase and ectatic upgrades ...😋 And to make my point clear cables can make a difference ...A small one yes thats all compared to the list above ... 😊😉😁 |
@roxy54 I meant to type "why this thread continues to fascinate ME". Not speaking for anyone else. I have in fact bought some cables from the ALI site. Not the Nordost cables, but the Furutech cables. The sound was dull. Kept them in for awhile but the music was just lacking in every respect. Put my old cables back in (Silversmith Audio's FIDELIUM at the time) and presto, the full sound returned. Would the Ali Valhalla cable prove to be the magic bullet? Common sense tells me no, but........... Do I want to spend even more money chasing the dream? |
@bigtwin What you just posted about the Furutechs is exactly why cables seem to make a huge difference.If you had the Ali Furutechs for a few years initially then tried the Silversmiths you may have been thrilled at the improvement. I do believe that often when some of us come across something that elevates our listening pleasure, we become enthusiastic and come here to share the joy with fellow hobbyists. Our families and friends aren't interested, lol. The only OMG moment I've experienced with a cable is with a power cable on my amp(American made).I tried Cardas and Nordost ics from Ali out of curiosity and they both were very good but not perfect for me. |
@jtcf I suspect you are correct about having the Ali cable first and then moving on to the Silversmith. That's why I hypothesised that my lack of the wow moment could be the fact I have always started with quality cables. Cheers. |
Russia population : 143,556,000 Engineers each year : 454,436
United states population : 333,2888,000 Engineers each year : 237,826
Iran population : 88.551.000 Engineers each year : 233,695
Now Iran produce as much engineers as Russia in spite of half the population size , but almost 4 times more engineers than the US as Russia did...
What do you think of the education in America now ?
In India and in China now they start to educate but their population is huge to feed and educate but slowly they will exceed America on all counts in Education not only scientific education but history and other matters which means nothing in North America now...
Ask Hollywood how many movies they created about the Byzantine roman empire ? A more than a great part of our own history and civilization for a millenia ...
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@mahgister How many Canadian engineers? Also the us population is not 333,2888,000. Your data is suspect also; This data is from 2005 and I think your numbers high for the US. ASSESSING UNDERGRADUATE ENGINEERINGVarious articles in the popular media, speeches by policy-makers, and reports to Congress have stated that the United States graduates roughly 70,000 undergraduate engineers annually, whereas China graduates 600,000 and India 350,000. Even the National Academies and the U.S. Department of Education have cited these numbers. Such statements often conclude that because China and India collectively graduate 12 times more engineers than does the United States, the United States is in trouble. The remedy that typically follows is for the United States to graduate more engineers. Indeed, the Democrats in the House of Representatives in November 2005 proposed an Innovation Agenda that called for graduating 100,000 more engineers and scientists annually. RATHER THAN TRYING TO MATCH THEIR DEMOGRAPHIC NUMBERS AND COST ADVANTAGES, THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO FORCE COMPETITORS TO MATCH ITS ABILITY TO INNOVATE. But we suspected that this information may not, in fact, be totally accurate. In an analysis of salary and employment data, we did not find any indication of a shortage of engineers in the United States. Also, we obtained anecdotal evidence from business executives doing business in India and China that indicated that those were the countries with shortages. To obtain better information about this issue, we embarked on a project to obtain comparable engineering graduation data from the United States, China, and India. U.S. graduation statistics are readily available from the Department of Education’s National Center for Education Statistics. Extensive data on engineering education are also collected by the American Society for Engineering Education and the Engineering Workforce Commission. In order to collect similar data for China and India, we initially contacted more than 200 universities in China and 100 in India. Chinese universities readily provided aggregated data, but not detail. Some Indian universities shared comprehensive spreadsheets, but others claimed not to know how many engineering colleges were affiliated with their schools or lacked detail on graduation rates by major. In the case of China, we eventually obtained useful data from the Ministry of Education (MoE) and, most recently, from the China Education and Research Network (CERN). In India, we obtained data from the National Association of Software and Service Companies (NASSCOM) and the All India Council for Technical Education (AICTE). |
Thanks for the date precision and observations... This does not change the crux of the matter... By the way in Quebec too there was a decline in general education of the elite ... And the elite matter in the population... Same for Canada with variation ... Internet has replaced our brain , no i am mistaken there is no need for a computer a phone is enough for brain ...
Creativity is related to questionning... All internet is censored and all education is controlled as medecine is no more a free art but a controlled big pharma slavery... Any doctor questionning anything will loose everything ... This is an example ... We are now in the brink of a war .... Why ? Low level education increasing for the last 60 years is the main cause for me.... No more elite no journalism no litterate thinking ...Corporations, all criminals , win... Population control is an art easy to practice now with no only the TV but the internet on a phone and tomorrow inside the brain ... Many scientist and thinkers even claimed that free will dont exist... They are no more even able to think what means the expression free will ... Astounding!
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@mahgister I considered the career path of a Stationary Engineer, but couldn't see a life spent writing greeting cards. 😆 You reference La Belle Province. Are you a fellow Canadian? |
Yes i am french speaking.... it is why my english writing is so clumsy and limited in vocabulary ... I apologize for that.... And what was you career choice bigtwin ? Myself i was not very gifted i was going with my life reading and teaching about books reading ... Picking the right book is an art ...
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@mahgister , I was recently in your country (in Montreal) meeting with a customer. Most of your high quality engineers are immigrant stock. The issue is labor rates in the US, Canada, etc....If a natural born Canadian plumber or a hvac repair guy or some landscaper installing goofyass french drains can make more than an engineering PhD, why the hell would he go through all the insane trouble of going through PhD courework? The pay grade for the savants of society is indeed terrible. It's the immigrant pool that largely keeps these countries afloat w.r.t technical excellence. |
Canada had the same problem than America, the economy became an artefact completely out of any ground, there is no more common good only profit , and the education is in the gutter , only slave worker for corporation are needed than minimal education and too specialized too young ... Quebec missed his historical moment in 1976 ...After that without the creativity of the greatest ambition Quebec became no more the nation it dreamed to be but a small province in a derelicted country because there is no more leadership in Canada either as in America for a long time ... And it seems the world was missing his historical moment right now ... I keep my optimism though but not by reading the news ... 😁
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Well, @roxy54 It all depends on quality of engineers. The volume of the LEARNING material in Chinese or Indian schools is a LOT bigger than such in Western schools and it's really not about quantity at all. Most American engineering schools have TRAINING material, not LEARNING. Same applies to medical schools unfortunately.
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We are talking about SIZE of the learning material given per discussed nation. I think language pro should know how to grab the main idea of discussion right? That size does matter and contributes to the quality of an engineer or any professional. In India or China it’s at least twice the size of USA which dictates to study it at least twice as hard if not harder. Nearly same applies to Japan Speaking about Africa and size of the learning material nearly approaching to zero, didn’t you get what I mean???
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There is no doubts that North American education is a catastroph... I am 72 years of age... When young at 13 years of age we studied history, litterature and languages... I learn english,french,greek and latin...Basic phonetic and linguistic... And i learn basic history related to these four cultures and general civilization history... At fourteen we had dissertation of minimum 5 pages to make each week about the difference of architectural style and painting and music and in litterature from medieval times to the modern era , one great writers after the others in 6 big manuals... In each text of these books we were in the obligation to answer each question of each texts by writing and debating it orally once a week in opposite side with arguments then learning applied logic and rhetoric ...We learn geography,chemistry basic, biology and dissection , and physics... I had zero in mathematics and english at this age 😊 because i was not interested , but when it interested me at 19 years old i learned it in english books by myself ..... Number theory and advance set theory ...Now i can explain to you Godel theorem meaning or the difference between set theory and category theory or topos theory ... .I studied linguistic as a hobby because of my college years ... Today college education is a complete lost of time ... People learn to use a phone which is now the computer for the mass ... Modern education was settled by corporate lobbies interests one century ago because the average citizen was determined to be no more than a specialized slave worker not an enlightened citizen ... Then it was not necessary to teach synthesis in an interdisciplinary perspective and intuition and freedom at all ... I will stop here ...
Now instead of being an old grumpy man remembering his past i will be optimist : Young people today had all the world at the finger tips... They can learn by themselves how to free themselves even from the criminal corporations ... Then even if my education was more litterate , i was not necessarily freer from other conditioning... Each times has its own challenge ... But it is clear that today we must give an education that will favor the grounding of man in nature and freedom ... Transhumanists sect is very powerful and dangerous ...
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...At 14 years of age(8th grade), I've started basic calculus as part of my general education in Soviet Union. At 21 years of age, I moved to USA and noted that 8th-graders are just learning arithmetic operations over fractions that I've learned in the 2nd grade. At 18 years of age, I thought and still think that I would never be able to bear the load Chinese students bear when I visited Shanghai -- the City of Lights. Their learning material especially on maths and physics a LOT bigger than in SU. Those US citizens that never seen anything outside, should start thinking |
Today the mind is closed ONLY if we choose to close it ourself... I never traveled in my life ...😊 And was not tempted too because all my money was in books and music ... The world of news is at the tip of our fingers... I can read anything about anything and i do ... Those who are closed minds are such by free choice ...It is easier to be mind closed ... My best to you and my apology if i was rude because i misunderstood your post it seems ...
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@roxy54 You are, sir confirming and proving my points like no one else I’ve ever socialized with, but I don’t blame you -- It’s corporations that made your education so incomplete and unestablished. Those who think that they can get an idea about the world from the news at their finger tips are extremely delusional exactly just like you roxy. After all, it's never late to learn especially if you've done it sometime before at least once. |
It's rather off-putting when the 'cable topic' (or whatever is being discussed, dis'd, or cussed over) that the tendency is to turn on each other... 😒😔 @mahgister I can appreciate your somewhat more 'classical education' in that it gave you a broader view and scope to allow the potential to strike out into further 'realms'. Additional languages allow one to have a different POV, rather than being locked into ones' native tongue... Lucky you...I'll admit to a tang of jealousy on that....*G*👍 I've tried in my own wayward way to look through the oil on the surfaces to have a mindset of a more fluid fashion....perhaps it shows in my anguish english and outright abuse of it. *L* ....sometimes....the penchant for wrangling over the differences of perception of the varied means and methods of enjoying (or not) drives me more into 'the silence of the keys'. Or the desire to make a pointed 'comment' that would further brand me an odd sort of troll/miscreant.... I don't know everything...and personally, thankfully, proud of it. Otherwise, hanging 'round A'gon....would be the needle-less haystack. When it's good, it's very good....brilliant at times. When sunk to rancor and attacks.... " And the boy who kicked Tom's head in I was far too scared to hit him |
I’m pretty simple, actually.... ...it's too short of a life....esp. for now.... 👌 |
I dont know much , especially facing many people here who are very knowledgeable... I am only trained for the best and the worst in relating facts and ideas... I came here for friendship , even short term , or spontaneous , and i did not entertain grudges... I react sometimes in the wrong way and i love too much discussion for its own sake... i thank you for your good words and i always feel pleasure to read you here with us ... Your humor compensate for my heavy prose ...
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It seems an awful lot of people are ok with stealing, as they justify it with a number of ethical and moral gymnastics. Outsmarting right vs. wrong is laughable. They're thieves, plain and simple. Anyone who knowingly assists the thieves in profiting from their crimes is no better, no matter how much BS they shovel on their actions to try hiding the truth. It's amoral. Stealing is stealing, whether it's a penny or a million dollars. You took something that didn't belong to you without permission. If you find that behavior acceptable, simply because a particular instance benefits you, your morals are for sale. That means you have none. Anyone who is offended by hearing that should be more offended by the face in the mirror. I would rather be poor and honest. My conscience wouldn't have it any other way. |
