Cerious Technologies NEW Graphene Cables

Mapman, knowledge is what's left after you subtract the stuff you forgot from school.

;-)

Graphene is around one atom in thickness.  So one naturally wonders how it would be used in cables.

So one assumes the Graphene functions as an RFI/EMI shield/absorber....?

Right, the secondary conductor is the RFI shield. RFI shields are characterized by high conductivity. Like Graphene.  

"Speaker cables: 10 gauge copper/silver conductors woven around carbon fiber, then injected with Graphene saturated Liquid Ceramic to fill every gap and void, apparently quite doable when the product is one atom thick.....whew!"

I hate to judge too quickly but it appears the 10 gauge copper/silver conductors are the conductor and the Graphene saturated liquid ceramic is the RFI/EMI shield. If Graphene were the conductor then one would expect the Graphene saturated Liquid Ceramic to be used in place of the copper silver, no? Try ceramic material might act as a vibration damper.  Quite clever.

Ozzy, if Graphene were being used as a signal conductor doesn’t it make sense that they would have used Graphene for the Backbone conductor, not copper/silver? If you Google Graphene you will see it’s primary use is in shielding RFI/EMI. And the reason is because of it’s extremely high conductivity. Graphene cannot be used as a Backbone Conductor (I.e., for the signal) because Graphene is by definition only one atom thick. That is a problem because it won’t support the current or the voltage involved. It will, however, support RFI/EMI. Also, since the Graphene powder is embedded in the ceramic it is not continuous and thus cannot be used to carry signal. In addition, ceramic is an insulator not a conductor. Thus, if they were trying to carry signal on the Secondary conductor they would be kind of shooting themselves in the foot.

cheers,

The actual making of Graphene and even the cost is not really an issue. Anyone can do it. It’s the app-li-ca-tion that’s the difficult part to come up with. Kinda like quantum dots, if I may be so bold. 

Davidpritchard wrote,

" But I predict in tthe near future it will be misused by many "manufacturers" as they jump on the Graphene band wagon to generate sales."

Uh, oh.  I'm getting a real bad feeling.

The Stealth Nanofiber Cables look very interesting. What appears to be Graphene or something very close is used for the conductor. No metal is used. Now, that is a really neat trick! Of course one big advantage of amorphous cables is you don’t have to worry about the whole directionality thing. Whew,That’s a relief! What’s next, Graphene fuses? Can Graphene fuses get UL listed? Hmmmmm...also, and I know I’m going out on a limb here but most likely what is referred to as Metacarbon or "carbon fibers" is not actually Graphene which, by definition is one atom thick.

"I’m not advertising here on someone else’s behalf either, but would you believe a Graphene "Fuse Wrap" that you can apply to Any fuse?? Not yet quite added to the site, but "coming soon".

http://www.alanmaherdesigns.net/#!shop/c1kcd

There is no description posted yet (Alan has been talking to his facebook group about introducing them for a couple weeks now), but they are indeed Graphene based. Installation (with a piece of electrical tape) kooks dirt simple."

So, apparently someone has figured out how to conduct the electrical signal on the outside of the fuse.

  ;-)

Thanks but wouldn’t ceramics that were highly conductive defeat the whole purpose of Graphene which is super-highly conductive? The ceramic slurry with Graphene suspended in it would only be as conductive as the ceramics, not the Graphene. Makes more sense to use pure Graphene. That is if in fact their objective is high conductivity. And if ceramics were really high conductivity why not use ceramics for the backbone? Or just have a Ceramics cable? As the Cerious cable person stated he filled all the voids in the copper/silver backbone with Graphene and used shrink wrap to hold the Graphene in place. He did not mention ceramics. What value would ceramics bring to the table? The Copper/silver backbones provides strength and rigidity.

Now I think I get it. The earlier Nano cables had the liquid ceramic, carbon fiber, metal conductors and carbon nano particles, not the Graphene cables. Still not sure exactly what cables the OP was referring to, the Nano or the Graphene.

The manufacturer never mentioned the ceramic slurry in his post on this thread. He said the Graphene was contained inside the cable in close contact with the copper/silver by heat shrink, which makes sense to me, assuming he was using the Graphene as a second conductive network. Besides if the Graphene were suspended in ceramic it couldn’t conduct, assuming that’s the objective, given that ceramic is an insulator not a conductor and that the Graphene would not be continuous. There would be no difference between the Nano cables and the Extreme Graphene cables other than the carbon was a different form. And even then I’m not sure the "Graohene" as used in the cables wouldn’t lose it’s unusual properties when is "all crammed in there" as it were with the copper/silver conductors since Graphene has the unique physical characteristic of being one atom thick. It's hard work to obtain the one atom layer of Graphene, seems counterproductive to make it thick again; if it was crammed in there without the liquid ceramic it wouldn’t be one atom thick any more. Am I missing something?

 
dweller
1,290 posts
05-10-2016 4:51pm
"When are we going to see an all-graphene system? All wires in all components (crossovers, tonearm leads, transformers, power conditioners, etc.). Surely, the High-end industry can make this happen?"

When? How about never? Why? because Graphene by definition is only one atom thick. Ergo, just like the Graphene cables you need a copper backbone just to hold the whole thing together. In the case of the Graphene fuse the Graphene is not used as a conductor. 

dweller wrote,

"geoffkait: Then why will we "never" see a system that uses graphene doped wire in all components? I’m confused."

For the same reason we will never see a system with all wires and cables in the correct direction. Case solved.

cheers

 
dweller
1,291 posts
05-10-2016 9:20pm
"geoffkait: Please refer to mfg. post of 4-5-16:

"How is the Graphene used? Graphene particles are flooded into each conductor and then the Teflon jacket is heated to shrink the jackets forcing the particles into every minute gap and seam. Where there was a gap of air before between strands in the conductor there is now Graphene!"

I didn’t mean to imply that wires should be pure graphene (yet)."

Yes, I've seen that. And the Graphene fuse doesn't use Graphene at all for the conductor. 

Cheers

Just to point out that the Graphene cables use silver and copper conductors for the "backbone."

Breaking news! Graphene tennis rackets! Can Anyone see some uh audio applications?

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Head_Graphene_XT_Radical_MP_A/descpageRCHEAD-GXTRMA.html?gclid=CIfu3...

The use of Graphene in tennis rackets is interesting because the Graphene is obviously used like Graphite used to be used, as structural material, stiff and strong and lightweight, like Boron, Magnesium, Carbon Fiber and Titanium. So that begs the question, how do they use Graphene in making tennis rackets since a one atom thickness, wouldn’t buy you very much? My guess is they reinforce some other material(s) with a layer Graphene, or multiple layers of Graphene, each layer one atom thick. That’s how I’d do it, anyway.

Djokovich will be out on the court in the French Open in about 10 minutes at 1:15 EDT as Tsonga retired in match preceding him. One imagines he'll be playing with the Head Graphene racket. I suspect the powers that be at Head are on pins and needles. Let's see what that Graphene is all about. Heh heh

Addendum:

http://www.nnin.org/sites/default/files/files/NNIN1014.pdf

cheers

PS from Graphene Tracker online,

HEAD’s new series of graphene-reinforced rackets are being promoted by the likes of Novak Djokovic and Maria Sharapova, with users reporting increased precision and ease of use, accompanied by decreased racket weight. In one of the early promotional videos, Novak’s new racket is called his “secret weapon”. The composition of the racket and the role of graphene was indeed secret, until the publishing of the graphene racket patent application.

HEAD chose to try and protect not only the use of graphene in rackets, but also in all other sporting goods, including skis, snowboards, golf clubs, and footwear. If the patent is approved with all its claims, it is sure to rake in large profits for HEAD, as other sporting goods manufacturers will certainly follow up with their own explorations of graphene. Strangely though, the patent application does not put a claim on balls made of graphene.

US patent application number 20130090193 describes the use of graphene as a reinforcing element in the build of a tennis racket. The graphene is embedded into an epoxy matrix, which makes at least a part of the racket’s structure. The use of graphene increases the racket’s performance, making it lighter in weight yet more durable than rackets used to date. The graphene also makes the racket’s stiffness along different directions more proportional, addressing a problem commonly experienced with non-graphene reinforced fibers. This means that tennis players will now have more freedom to throw their racket against the ground upon losing a point, knowing that graphene is there to help the racket survive and be used again.

Rgrost, not sure why you think tennis rackets are not sometimes constructed using titanium or Graphene or other exotic materials. The "titanium card"? Tennis racket manufacturers have for many years been experimental in terms of strength of materials, you know, ever since wood rackets, which themselves are often quite interesting in terms of construction. Apparently, unless the manufacturer is lying, Graphene is used in the construction of the racket handle. Now, whether a racket constructed using Graphene is measurably better in some respect say, stiffness, than some other material is another question. I have many rackets myself, from titanium to graphite, to magnesium to carbon fiber, ceramics or composites or alloys thereof. I even have some outstanding examples of wood rackets. The titanium racket certainly appears to contain a good deal of titanium and the same with the magnesium racket. They are probably at a minimum alloys of the metals. Not sure why you think rackets all employ foam and fiberglass. That just doesn’t make sense. Just as stereo cartridge manufacturers have experimented with various materials for the cartridge stylus, you know, boron, ruby, diamond, etc, tennis racket manufacturers certainly have the wherewithal and expertise to do the same. And just from the feel and the "action" of these exotic rackets I’m sure they actually do. The ceramic racket feels like ceramic, the titanium one like titanium, etc.

I play tennis evey day and have now about thirty rackets, ranging from Slazenger and Dunlop Muliply wood jobs, the Dunlop Max 200G, various vintage and newer Wilson, Head, Prince, graphite, carbon fiber, tungsten, magnesium, and others. I even have a Megaton Pro super widebody and Rex Professional super widebidy from Germany. To claim that the material in rackets is pure marketing is a little bit silly IMHO since each type of racket obviously has it’s own action, physical characteristics and feel, which are attributable to several factors including materials as well as geometry, strings, tension of strings, etc. Besides, why would a company like Head take out a patent on the Graphene racket technology? Doesn’t make sense. Is that itself a marketing ploy, taking out a patent?

Furthermore, and more to the point, why would Djokovich comment, regarding his Head Graphene tennis racket, "It’s my secret weapon." I suppose now I’ll have to check out the French Open today at 12 and see how Djokovich is doing with that heavily marketed Head Graphene racket. ;-)

Doncha agree tennis is a lot like audio - it’s a question of tweaking, materials, what strings to use, tension, vibration dampers, materials. ;-) especially what I do a lot of professionally, vibration isolation and resonance control, in terms of physics of materials.

I return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

geoff kait
machina dynamica

Quick interrupt, slightly off topic, but not really. Both Djokovic and Murray have been cruising through the French Open, both looking relaxed and winning relatively easily. Would you believe they are both playing with the Head Graphene racket? Coincidence? Placebo effect? Will we be seeing any Graphenes in the Finals which, by the way, are Sunday? Murray just won the first set 6-4 against Stan Wawrinka in the 1/2 finals as we speak.

This just in!!

"Racquet of choice by Stanislas Wawrinka, the VCORE Tour G (330) has impressive stability, plow through and precision. Advanced players who swing big will be able to hit a heavy, spin loaded ball with this one. Even more impressive is this stick’s accuracy on full swings, a fact that should enable aggressive ball strikers to step on the gas and close out points. While the overall feel is crisp, Yonex adds some arm-friendly flexibility to the shaft with its Neo CS Carbon Nanotube material."

Do the carbon nanotubes provide stiffness or flexibility? You decide.

over and out,

Geoff Kait,
machina dynamica

I did say relatively easily. Murray is always such a drama queen. Besides, Murray cruised over Wawrinka in semis, in four sets, 6-4, 6-2, 4-6, 6-2. Wawrinka if you'll recall was the 2015 French Open champion. With Djokovich himself on cruise control today it looks like a solid Head Graphene final.

Cheers

Hey, Bob, did you happen to see the men's final at the French Open? Both Murray and Djokovich were using Head Graphene racquets.  What are the odds? Gotta be at least 2 to 1. 

Cheers

charles1dad
4,762 posts
06-27-2016 1:07pm
Yes,
I note the language and I don't view it as a "miracle " supplement by any means. However for its very modest cost it seems to be a worthwhile product for some users (such as pas). I realize that I've gotten off topic.

I can see it now. They'll be giving out free samples of Ginko Giloba at CES. 

charles1dad
4,760 posts
06-27-2016 12:48am
Pas,
That’s an interesting comment concerning Ginkgo. It actually improved your hearing ability?

Yes, especially in really old dudes whose frequency response runs out around 6kHz. They will have the hearing of young Swedish girls.

;-)

Some of the comments found in the U. of Maryland article seem somewhat favorable in terms of (possible) medical benefits however improved hearing is actually not one of them. Sorry to disappoint. Note frequent use of the term "may help" in the comments.

Overview

Ginkgo (Ginkgo biloba) is one of the oldest living tree species. It is also one of the best-selling herbal supplements in the United States and Europe.

Ginkgo has a long history of use in treating blood disorders and memory issues. It is best known today as way to potentially keep your memory sharp. Laboratory studies have shown that ginkgo improves blood circulation by opening up blood vessels and making blood less sticky. It is also an antioxidant.

For those reasons, ginkgo may improve vein and eye health. Although not all studies agree, ginkgo may help treat dementia (including Alzheimer disease) and intermittent claudication, or poor circulation in the legs. It may also protect memory in older adults.

Ginkgo leaves contain flavonoids and terpenoids, which are both antioxidants. In your body, harmful particles called free radicals build up as you age, and may contribute to heart disease, cancer, and Alzheimer disease. Antioxidants like those found in ginkgo fight off free radicals, and stop them from damaging DNA and other cells."

cheers

philipwu
153 posts
07-17-2016 11:09pm
hi,
has anyone tried A\B comparison between CE graphene interconnects and other interconnects (those in higher price bracket) ? can i know what is your brief opinions ? Thanks in advances!

Inasmuch as the break-in times for high end cables are so long these days and the disruption of the interconnect's physical/electrical connections takes some finite time to "heal," in conjuction with the so-called audio memory issue I tend to hold a skeptical view regarding cable comparisons in general and take evaluations and comparisons with a grain of salt just as I do comments about how a cable or anything sounds right out of the box, positive or negative.

Cheers

gdhal
135 posts
08-04-2016 1:34pm
Here is something I found interesting which in all likelihood would be well received info for customers and potential customers of this product. While I was doing some reading - completely unrelated to cables - about the Synergistic Research Black Quantum Fuse, I noted the description indicates "...featuring a patent pending UEF coating and Graphene with 8 million times the conductive density of copper." Wow. :)

http://highend-electronics.com/products/synergistic-research-black-quantum-fuses


Yes, but what is the function of the Graphene in the Black Fuse? That’s the $64K question. Also, what's a UEF? ;-)

stringreen
3,974 posts
09-11-2016 3:47pm
any cable is only as good as it performs in your system. All cables have to be listened to. Advertising just whets the whistle.

I've seen a lot of mixed metaphors in my time but that one takes the cake.

It would appear rather unlikely that the conductors are (only) Graphene inasmuch as Graphene is by definition one atom thickness. Didn’t the mfgr indicate the backbone is copper with Graphene wrapped around the backbone. One can’t help wonder how the heck you handle one atom thickness Graphene, with teeny tiny tweezers?

lak
Getting the cables off the floor reduces the static that's down there, and eventually the static (etc) affects all types of cabling.

Not to mention suspending the cables isolates them from the deleterious effects of floorborne vibration.
 

geez, has it really been 30 years since i built those Enid Lumley cable tunnels, using three 2x4s to make the tunnels, then suspending the cables inside the tunnels using eye hooks and thread?

lancelock
Bob,
just out of curiosity, do you think cryogenic treatment would have any positive effects?

rgrost
I think it worked great for Walt Disney. No idea...

That’s a rather odd response given the fact that most high end cable manufacturers have been employing cryogenic treatment for years. Shall I post a list of cable manufacturers who employ cryogenics? And given that cryogenics has been employed for all manner of audio components and cables and other things for what, twenty years? 

Lak wrote,

"Based upon my experience (while experimenting with cryogenic treatments) it’s very possible your products would benefit, however once again that would raise the price and increase the length of time a customer would wait for delivery."

well, actually the cost per cable would be quite low to cryo them. Besides, all the other high end cable manufactures have figured out how to do it and make money, and how to avoid long waiting times.

lak also wrote,

"If an audiophile was really interested in Cryo, they can contact a company themselves and have the item treated. Be warned though that there is a "VERY LONG" break-in period after being "

Well, I suspect cryo’d items need about a week to heal from their ordeal, and get a head start while the package is headed back from the lab. A week is about what it takes for many things to break in these days. Fuses, cables, components, capacitors, etc. Rome wasn’t built in a day. Relax, enjoy the ride. 😀

In a direct answer, most metals have a memory and an ideal crystal structure. This structure gets distorted through the extruding of the metal to make the wires and most significantly through the heating of the solder process, which is why I always design to have as few solder joints in the signal path as possible. Running a signal through the wire and joint slowly restores it back to its original structure although slowly. Cryo causes the crystal structure to "relax" and spring back quicker."

Sorry to be a party pooper. Cryo is what we call an irreversible process. Cryo makes the arrangement of the atoms more homogeneous during contraction/expansion phases of the process. The problem for metals that have been bent, rolled, drawn and or hammered is the crystal structure is very distorted.

While I do use metals in the GE, the carbon fiber and Graphene would be unaffected by the cryogenic process - other than to make the Graphene a virtually perfect conductor when frozen.

I wasn’t referring to the graphene or carbon fiber. Although now that I think about it, the performance of plastics and glass and many other non metal materials improves with cryo, so why not graphene and carbon fiber?

The Graphene’s total weight itself is what, about 2 micrograms?

😬

"What is the deal with all the troll's on Audiogon lately?"

Built it and they will come. Once they've got a foothold in your house they can be quite difficult to get rid of.  

OK, I'll play along with the crowd and hide my head in the sand too.

If the signal traveled the path of least resistance it would travel down the Graphene, assuming the Graphene is acting as a conductor in the first place, and not the metal backbone metal wires, which one assumes are actually nothing more than structural reinforcement. And if that were the case, then Bob could use coat hangers for the backbone. It’s also possible, as I mentioned before, the Graphene is simply acting as an RFI/EMI shield and not as a conductor at all. Which is the case in the SR Black fuse.

Furthermore, the distinction between electrons and photons in the explanation of how things work is not trivial, especially in light of the fact that many folks seem to believe that the signal travels back and forth in AC circuits. Follow?

As much as I might somewhat admire your bravery for attempting to shed some light on the dodgy subject of how Graphene enhances the signal, I feel it only fair to post out that elections actually don’t travel down the length of the conductor, even ones with Graphene in them. Electron drift velocity is actually quite slow. Painfully slow, in fact. On the order of a few centimeters per minute in copper wire.

To exacerbate things even further with respect to your explanation, in AC circuits such as speaker cables the electrons travel TO AND FRO and are therefore at a virtual standstill. Now, if you incorporate how photons, not electrons, behave in your cables then I might scramble on board. You know, since the electromagnetic wave - I.e., the music signal - that’s traveling from one end of the cables to the other is comprised of photons, not electrons.

geoff kait
machina dynamica
we do the difficult quickly, the impossible takes a little longer

Since Graphene is defined as a two dimensional material, meaning that it’s thickness is only one molecule, the slurry of Graphene infused liquid ceramic used to surround the backbone metal conductors is not really Graphene any longer, but some other graphite based material. The special properties of Graphene, I.e., high strength and high conductivity are based on the premise that the material is only one molecule thick. Thus, I conclude the Graphene infused ceramic is acting as an anti vibration jacket and/or as an RFI/EMI shield. Please note I’m not impugning the efficacy of the Graphene cables. I actually think the cables would be superior to many deigns, but for the reasons I just mentioned which, by no coincidence, are the same reasons Graphene is employed in the SR Black fuse.

Thanks to Al for pointing out the audio signal travels at near light speed. Of course that means that the signal must be comprised of photons, not electrons. Massless photons are *compelled* to travel at the speed of light in a vacuum and at somewhat lower velocities in other mediums like water or copper, the actual velocity depending on the physical characteristics of the medium.

ptss
In response to R. Grosts statements in his Feb 11 post.
It appears he is not familiar phonons; a rather basic part
of the movement of signals in cables. Strange.

Undoubtedly you meant to say, "It appears he is not familiar with PHOTONS; a rather basic part of the movement of signals in cables."

Try to show a little restraint. You're scaring the newbies.

lancelock
A layman speaking here. I'm not concerned with the scientific jibber jabber. I know the impact these cables have made in my system and my ears are very happy. I also like Bob. He is a classy guy.

Whoa! What? Hey, keep your shirt on. I am not attacking the effectiveness of the Graphene Cables or Bob. Let's keep this civil.  

"I have read through every post since and of course now I am felling the need to try these Cerious cables."

Hmmmm...Freudian slip?

🙄

rgrost
Anyone trying to contact me I am away at a Funeral and will return Monday. I will respond to the trolls when I get back. Perhaps you can revel in my loss until then...Photons for God’s Sake...

Nice comeback. One assumes you’ll need a little time to compose a real rebuttal. Lol I look forward to your full attention when you return from the funeral on what exactly’s going on with the audio signal in cable. I hate to be judgemental but I suspect that just might be your own funeral.

Maxima95 wrote,

"Geoffkait, no surprise you knew you were one of the trolls Bob was referring to. An attempt at being glib regarding a funeral when Bob is involved in one is the height of insensitivity."

Lighten up, max. The reason I knew he was referring to me was because I was the one who corrected him by pointing out the audio signal is not electrons, but photons. And it was actually Bob who was glib with his snippy response. Try to keep up with the discussion.