Can a system sound too Holographic?
Hi friends :)
So I got a question for those interested. For me, having a 2 channel system with a Holographic soundstage is very desirable.
I bring this up because I had lent some Centerstage 2 footers ( isolation devices) to a friend to try out. To make a long story short, he likes what they are doing under his Lumin T3, however he mentioned that it might be "Too Holographic". I don't know about you guys and gals, but that wouldn't really be a problem for me. Your thoughts or experiences please. Anyone experience a soundstage that was too Holographic?
@aniwolfe I would either like to try those footers or I’ll have whatever your friend is having. Jokes aside, is it possible that in the process of installing these footers he changed a setting and reversed a phase? Or may be connected his speakers out of phase? |
Ok it is a vintage speakers mapman is it not ? Way less costly than newer design a cheap 140,000 bucks ... certainly interesting in S. Q. ...Thanks i regret the lost of my room... 😁 i Cannot afford them but this article made me curious... The Ohm seems very interesting and no too costly... It will be for younger folk in a bigger house than me ... Hopefully some headphone can help to cure sadness cominf from the lost of room/speakers ...
The article is interesting:
« 10. MBL Radialstrahler 101E Mk.IIBack story:When MBL’s uniquely designed speakers first appeared in the early 1980’s, Marty Gersten concluded that although they did use travelling-wave transducers like the Walsh design, it was not a patent infringement since it was done in a different configuration with multiple drivers.The MBL Radialstrahlers have received many excellent reviews from all around the world – with good reasons: they look amazing and sound very good. Recent update:A few years ago, I took a trip to England to meet with a potential Ohm distributor and demonstrate the custom product I was suggesting that they sell.I was hoping to get them to build the cabinets themselves and to buy the Walsh drivers, subwoofers and crossovers from Ohm. I expected they could retail them for around $3000 per pair. I arrived in London and went to a local hotel.We had timed the trip to coincide with the opening of the Heathrow Audio Show.Our agreed-upon plan was to go through the show and listen to the best systems on display.We would be auditioning all our competition in just a couple of days.I had brought a bunch of CDs for my presentation; but only took the Alpine Demo CD to the show to use as a “standard” source for all the systems we auditioned. I have heard this CD on literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of speakers and know several of the cuts note for note. At the show many, many high-end speakers were demonstrated, either in their own rooms or in high-end electronics manufacturers’ rooms.Many of these speakers had received rave reviews in the audio press.In a consumer show, you want to sound your best and no expense was spared to make great demonstrations.The prices varied from under $2,000 to over $30,000 per pair for the speakers alone. And into six figures for complete systems! I know what this CD sounds like on my speakers. As I went from room to room I became more and more depressed.Many of the speakers sounded very good to my companions; but none sounded like mine to me.It is a hard sell trying to convince someone that this many well reviewed speakers are all wrong and my sound it correct.I had fought this uphill battle in Japan a few years earlier; so I was getting discouraged while my potential customers were happily discussing the pros and cons of the speakers we auditioned. Then we came to the MBL room. They had their Radialstrahler 101 E MK II on display powered by their own electronics.They put on my CD and let the 101s play. I internally breathed a great sigh of relief.Here was the only pair of speakers that sounded like mine.The MBL representative happily spend nearly an hour demonstrating all his CDs to us enthusiastic listeners as other show goers came and went sharing our enthusiasm.We all agreed, these were the best sounding speakers in the show by far. And at $140,000 for the system, we understood they could be in a totally different class with a different sound. After a short stop at their number two choice (to confirm their earlier impressions), they were excited to hear my speakers. We unpacked the Ohms in their acoustic lab (a converted garage). There we tested them with a 300-Watt amplifier to confirm the speakers had survived the flight from NY.Then we took them into the main living room section of the home.I was a bit concerned about this space as the left wall was almost totally open to the dining room/open kitchen area. They hooked up the speakers and I auditioned the same CD as we had been hearing all day.The speakers sounded correct to me in the room and the others were amazed.The Ohms sounded closer to the MBLs than any other speaker we had auditioned.Then we cranked the system up to “see what they could do” and I noticed the sound was getting a bit “hard”, maybe distorting in the high end.Still, my hosts were exceedingly pleased with the speakers’ performance.The host explained they were using a 35-Watt CD/receiver that his wife normally used for background music.They had wanted to hear them in a real-life setup, not in a “cost-no-object” system like the systems we had been listening to at the show. Although we never came to a distribution agreement, I felt the experience was well worth the cost in time and money. Although both the fully omnidirectional MBL and the original fully omnidirectional Ohm As and Ohm Fs require “far-from-walls” placement, they all keep their sonic balance from anywhere in the listening room and create a spectacular soundscape in their sweet-spot. And like the original Walshs, that spectacular soundscape moves with you as you leave the center sweet-spot and almost totally collapses when you are in front of one speaker.The controlled directivity of the later generations, called Walsh 2 and beyond, addresses this problem better than any other speaker in the world. The MBLs subwoofer is a bandpass design that impacts the transition to the main ‘footballs’.In Ohm’s new 20/20K Series, we addressed this problem by making the subwoofer use a standard acoustic suspension design to match the acoustic suspension Walsh satellite sitting on top of the subwoofer. So, there you have it.My “Top Ten” from the time I was in college to the present – each successive “Greatest” adding something to at least my world of sound, audio and music. Let me just add here, with a note of pride, “Dollar-for-Dollar,” I fully believe that the current Ohm Walsh speakers deliver the finest, most accurate and most enjoyable sound available, from the widest sweet-sweep in the world! Good Listening! John » |
@mahgister see speaker number 10 mentioned here. https://ohmspeaker.com/news/top-10-greatest-speakers/ |
For sure the design of the speakers help a lot too... I just made a search of MBL speakers, i did not know them and the design is amazing... I dont doubt in a good room that holography will be stupendous... Wow! The complete MBL systems cost 500,000 bucks... i was proud of my holographical room, way less better but costing nothing..,. i must not look at these MBL systems because i already had a glimpse of holography and nothing beat this immersiveness.. The only cheap way to gain this soundfield is the virtual room systems of Dr. Choueri BACCH filters system for something near 10,000 ...
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The only, truly holographic imaging I ever experienced was at Acoustic Image, back when Eliot Midwood has his storefront down on Ventura Blvd. I was so taken by it that I stood up and tried to move around the images. They stayed stable but lessened in intensity as I neared them and tried to go around them but the ones further away stayed put. It was the most surreal experience I've had and like @mapman mentioned, the MBLs come pretty darn close. Listening to them takes me back to that day at Acoustic Image. It must have been the synergy of the gear, room and speaker placement but it was a joy to behold. So, no, one cannot have too much of a holographic event as it just completes the magic needed to thoroughly enjoy the music. All the best, |
I dont understand why for someone holographical is analytical at all... It is not my experience... On the opposite your are like there with the music, and any need for concentration stop, it is so relaxing, because there is no need for any effort to hear any instrument localized and in his own volume of space; i dont undertand equating it with analytical... Anyway holography is not the results of the design of the amplifier and speakers alone but essentially of their right acoustical integration in a room... And no recording is the same,... Jazz trio does not sound and is not recoreded as religious chorus of 16 century in a big church... Here in chorus music nothing is more relaxing and less analytical than human voices perfectly distributed in all my room... Holography is highly recording dependant for the way the music is recreated in the room.., No holography means all recording sound way more the same in a FIXED oncde for all soundstage... In holography the soundstage dimensions and form from my music albums differ and vary a lot... |
Too holographic takes too much attention from my flowing into the music. It takes too much of my intellect attention to be able to flow freely into the music. I listen to music to relax and to sort of float into it, not to analyze it. I used to analyze the crap out of it while upgrading my system, but I no longer enjoy that part of it now that the system no longer needs to be analyzed to please me. This is a good thing. |
Have you ever heard a properly set up mbl system?
Having been there and heard that I can assure you the answer to the OP question is a resounding no. Few systems out there otherwise can even come close in regards to the 3D holographic soundstage that a good mbl setup in a proper room can deliver. We are talking a totally different league from most anything else. Even with mbl it can only happen if the room allows it. |
Very interesting distinction i never even thought about... Thanks for putting it ghdprentice... "Wall of sound" is for me the definition of hell... Holography is heaven... 🤓 The main difference is the decibels level and in one case silence and relaxing sound at normal ; in the other case body rape loudness and agression with premature tinnitus and deafness... For sure i put it in an extreme way but.... Rock concert are not designed acoustically as small music concert hall ... Did i understand well ? The concept of "wall of sound" was created by Phil Spector... It sold a lot of tickets and impairment hearing aids 30 years later......😁😊
But true holography may engulf the listener in sound too with sound sources near him or behind the speakers or around the listener... It is recording dependant... But not with intense dynamic and over the board bass pressure rushing to the listener from the speakers in front of him... But true holography in a small room is very difficult to create...With headphone it is very difficult too because no crosstalk and there is not acoustical control of the shell in most headphones..
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ghdprentice, Your distinguishing the difference between 'wall of sound' and holography, is interesting and rarely made. Makes me think about how classical orchestral music presents itself live that clearly distinguishes itself from recorded. With that type of music I think I would prefer the wall of sound, but not so much with small forces, solos, vocals etc in which I prefer specificity. Perhaps your observation underlays why many seem to reject 'holography' i.e. specificity of images, in large orchestral/classical(?) music. Works for me! :-) |
Holographic is a balance ratio between "sound source " volume dimensions and localization and listener envelopment factor... ASW/LV There is no such thing as a too much amount of holography.. ( But a soundfield can be wrongly and badly distorted in the room yes by lack of holograpical control ) Why ? Because in acoustic experience , some ratio must be optimized , when the acoustic conditions are set right in a small room, this ratio become optimal it cannot AT THE END be too much or not enough ... The sound sources can be experienced almost as point or tiny surfaces and the soundfield can be outside the listener body completely... This is not holography... We can have imaging differentiation AND fIxed soundstage dimensions without holography... ( With holography, the soundstage vary in dimensions with the recording choices in each album in a good acoustic or with a good headphone but as most room most headphone are not good ) This is why most reviewers in non dedicated room recognize only two aspects of the soundfield in their review , the imaging and almost fixed soundstaging and miss the holography.. Any ideal soundfield exhibit three aspects not two... I did not pick up this in a book by the way, i created it in my room reading acoustic articles to set my experiments and created my devices...... Those who dont bother about holography never experience it fully ... Sorry... But yes timbre set right is mandatory and the first thing to create... But once timbre experience is there as relatively natural, to experience immersiveness we need an optimal ratio between sound sources dimensions and localizations for holographical experience.. The objective perfect way to experience it, without be bother by acoustic problems very difficult to solve right is NOW simple : we must buy a Dr. Choueri virtual acoustic room program or dac with his BACCH filters... This is way more perfect than my homemade experiments and it is a plug and play device ... it takes me 2 years full time to do it and only to some extent ... Now i lost my room.. Happily my headphone give me an astounding soundfield but it is another story...( i cannot afford the Dr Choueri filters system for now and anyway i am happy as it is ) By the way saying that holography may distract the listener from the music is like saying that a great acoustic hall for an orchestra distract us from listening the orchestra... That does not make sense... |
Understood. I also agree with @ghdprentice that while that type of holography is interesting, it's not something that's important to me. I care more about timbre and dynamics. Other things are secondary.. |
@roxy54 I think we agree on what holographic means. I was trying to describe what you described....but my speculation on what "too holographic" means may be totally wrong. |
One of the most incredible system I have ever heard was a Wilson Bamm or Wham or something like that / Rowland. The system was set up perfectly. Images were precise and sounded spherical suspended in the sound stage… one 12’ forward 3’ above the floor at 10 o’clock, another 5’ above the floor and 6’ at 2 o’clock… like that. It was the most incredible experience I ever had. I came away just blown away, saying… “That is the most incredible thing I have ever heard… I do not want that… but that is incredible.
So, yes.
Some folks want to be engulfed in sound… enfolded, or have a wall wash over them. Holographic imaging does not do that to them. So, yes again. You’ll see some dynamic speakers system six feet high with tons of midrange and woofers. Typically those are designed for more of a wall of sound and less for holographic sound. |
Audio is a journey that often has a different route and destination for different people. A lot of systems add significant coloration that might be perceived as "pleasant" by some. Not my cup of tea, but I can certainly understand how someone might enjoy it, and might not want to know the audio truth that could interfere with their enjoyment of the music. My wife for example! 😉 |
I would like to hear other opinions here about the meaning of "holographic", but I don’t agree with yours. I always understood it to mean three dimensional images of voices and instruments. I have only heard it in person twice. Once was a pair of Watt Puppy 5’s, and there did seem to be ghosts of the singer and the instruments in three-dimensional space, but overall, I didn’t like the sound as it was too thin. As far as something being "too holographic", I can’t imagine what that person was hearing when he said it, but he was probably describing some other sonic anomaly and using the wrong word. |
I sometimes hear systems with no center image--everything seems to be coming from one speaker or the other--the opposite of "speakers disappear". People seem to like this sound but maybe that is what your friend means by "too holographic". To me holographic means the vocals are front center left. Guitar front center right. bass back left. Drums back right. backup vocals right....etc Jerry |
