LOL! In the audio field, many 'technically astute' people believe that digital is superior to analog, that solid state is superior to tubes and that cables make no difference. There are also 'tecnically astute' people, like Ralph and Al, that do hear audible differences between source formats, tubes/SS and cables. So an astute individual would know that they can't make blanket statements as immature as that (my sides more 'educated', na na na foo foo). I agree with Jimyork's post on 2-23-13: "The same kind of discussions go on between Democrats and Republicans". There is no right or wrong here, only differences of opinions. Each side believing that the 'facts' support their claim, neither side listening to or changing the other sides perspective. So what's the point? Entertainment? Is that what this is? Entertainment? Pass the popcorn..... |
"Having said that, I don't believe for one minute that you are nearly as firm nor passionate in your ideas about this stuff as what you present in print. "
And how, pray tell, did you come to that conclusion? And what 'stuff' are you referring to?
Cheers |
Rok, read again. I think you have gotten yourself worked up to the point that you see (read) what you want to see. My comment said "no believers", NOT "no(n) believers". Interesting, no?
BTW, one the fascinating (?) things about these forums is that posters (I include myself) sometimes get to play these little games; either for the hell of it, to exercise one's language skills, the joy of banter, or...whatever. Having said that, I don't believe for one minute that you are nearly as firm nor passionate in your ideas about this stuff as what you present in print. But that's cool; whatever floats your boat.
Peace. |
If someone switched out the cables in my setup to stock cheapos without my knowing, and I came home from work to listen to the stereo, I would notice the absence of the good cables sound qualities immediately. |
Irvrobinson:
Well said. I think I detected a little Aczelian influence.
Last night I reread his review of the Parasound A21 power amp. How refreshing to read a real review. I really miss his input. he was the last of a kind. The only thing between truth and the charlatans.
He quit his 'hip-boots' articles because he said the ENTIRE audio media industry was now corrupt, so there was no need to point of the voodoo priests, since they are all now selling snake oil.
Have you noticed that a lot of these people can't read. They call the words, but they cannot comprehend. Check out the 'Frogman's response to your post. How in God's name did he come to understand that you said all non-believers were techically astute. It's like talking to a wall. They just regurgitate what they have been told.
I have to read Peter every now and then just to cleanse my head of all the nonsensical claptrap you read here on this forum. The ignorance and gullibility is absolutely breathtaking.
When someone 'accused' me of trying to 'save' them, I knew it was time to move on.
Good luck to you.
Cheers |
@ frogman,Hi, What are the cables you have? |
@ knghifi,Hi,what do you use for cables? |
****1. It gives technically astute people, who many of us admire and value the opinions of, a negative view of those of people active in high-end audio. The cable lie reflects poorly on all of us.****
The implication being that no believers are technically astute. Clearly, not the case. How does one explain the many clearly "technically astute " individuals who are believers. It is true that there is a lot of hype; but that, in no way, suggests that it is ALL hype. To suggest otherwise is the worst example of lack of astuteness.
****2. Active recruitment of new disciples into the cable cult tempts us to argue, to prevent others from swallowing the lie.****
I will ask the question again: why does it matter so much to you? Why not be secure in your belief (or lack thereof), and leave at that? |
For the same reason it matters to the believers......
So you'll have something to argue about.
|
Why does it matter so much to non-believers, that some of us believe? For two reasons: 1. It gives technically astute people, who many of us admire and value the opinions of, a negative view of those of people active in high-end audio. The cable lie reflects poorly on all of us. 2. Active recruitment of new disciples into the cable cult tempts us to argue, to prevent others from swallowing the lie. |
Sonofjim, you broke one of the cardinal rules: One variable at a time! Apparently the new amp is an improvement with "junk", but functional, cable. As far as making an assessment about how "good" the Monster junk is compared to your regular cables, the only way is to listen to both cables with your old amp. Only one variable, and you know the sound of that amp. |
@ jmcgrogan2 and nonoise, thankyou gentlemen,I can tell the both of you are seasoned audiophiles to know what I do and why!,happy listening to all! |
Most of you have probably messed around with more cables than I have. Yesterday, I was in a pinch for longer speaker cables to audition a different amp. Out of necessity I dug out 30 ft. of vanilla Monster Cable I had in a box from the early 90's. I cut it into 4 equal sections and used it to bi-wire my Vandersteen 5As with just the bare wire as terminations. My Audioquest K2s are monoblock length and wouldn't reach.
I'm not sure what it says about hype concerning cables but I'm shocked at how much I'm enjoying the sound conveyed by $25 worth of junk cable I haven't even thought about for 20+ years. At the very least, make sure the rest of your system is where you want it before you dump a boatload on cables. |
Audiolabyrinth, Your name speaks volumes for your idea that cables are the standard around which components should be chosen. Once you've found that synergy between components, any change should be carefully chosen to match the values that interact between components lest you end up chasing your tail, wondering why this or that doesn't sound right and end up replacing one component after another, screwing up the equation.
The parameters you've settled on have a narrow window to experiment with and since you've spent a small fortune on cables, anything that's changed has to fall within those parameters or the magic is lost.
It's nice to know there's another way to skin this cat. :-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
02-18-13: Tobb
I stand to be corrected!
We did a test this weekend with an 800.00 pair of interconnects that a contact loaned us and a 60.00 pair.
I can hear the difference but it was not in favor of the 800.00 pair.
The $800 cable is highlighting flaws in your system/components so the less expensive is a superior match. You are building a SYSTEM of components and they all have to work/integrate well together.
If you put a Porsche engine in a Yugo, the extra hp and torque will highlight the chassis, suspension ... flaws in the Yugo. It doesn't mean the Porsche engine is bad and not worth the $ but just in a wrong system/car. So obviously the Yugo orig engine is better in a Yugo.
02-20-13: Bander
I wonder who's more fortunate, those whose hearing is so compromised that differences between cables can't be discerned or those like myself who have spent not a small amount of money on cables and experience huge sonic benifits. Can't we just all get along?
That's easy, I rather have a high resolution system where I can detect all changes than someone using a boom box or/and deaf.
02-21-13: Audiolabyrinth
@ rok2id,Hi, I do not want to make you angry like some of the other people on this forum,so please excuse me,It ...
I understand most members want to be respectful and not come across as snobs but you wasting your breath. You can talk all you want but unless they experience it for themselves, they will never believe you. This is TRUE with everything and not just Audio cables.
I'm into cars and some of my friends don't understand the fascination for Porsches. Once they experience driving one themselve, all agree their is NO SUBSTITUDE!
02-23-13: Almarg ... Concerning the broader issue that is being, um, discussed here, I would point out that a belief that cables can sound different, to which I subscribe, says nothing about the degree of correlation that can be expected between cable performance and cable price.
No kidding, what commodity does? Cars, clothing ... up to the individual consume to decide for themselves. |
@Audiolabyrinth, that is an interesting concept, I don't think I've ever heard of someone that tunes their system around their cables. I'm not saying it is wrong, only different. There are many different paths to arrive at the same location.
Many times folks are accused of using cables as 'tuning devices' or 'band-aids'. In this case you are using the gear as a 'tuning device' or 'band-aid'. Since we all tune a system to suit our individual tastes. I find that many folks who swear by 'transparent' cables, use 'warm' components. While those that use 'warm' cables are using 'transparent' components. Like I said, their are many paths to get where you want to go. Enjoy. |
this issue will never be resolved That's the business model of the cable companies in a nutshell. |
The issue of the efficacy of cables (as well as the question of cost) is not easily resolved unless one works with sets/looms of cables. Many people do not, and thus have only hearsay to discuss. :(
It costs money to conduct such comparisons, and most audiophiles despite their insistence upon being serious, are unwilling to put up the money to do so. Between the percentage of those with hearing loss and those unwilling to conduct comparisons with sets of cabling, this issue will never be resolved. :) |
****Don't try to save us! We will figure out what's best for us. ****
Amen! Which goes back to my question: Why does it matter so much to non-believers, that some of us believe?
Now, acknowledging that there will be many exceptions, a really interesting survey might be what percentage of non-believers are Democrat or Republican; same for believers. |
The thing I love about this forum,It is alive and well!I do like talking to all of you!no matter the differences,It is just a hobby!,We can all agree on the fact we love music!,or we would not be here talking to each other,to me ,thats cool! |
@ Rok2id,thankyou,for the excuse me of your out burst toward me,no harm or anamosity against you,you are passoniate at what you believe,now to everyone,I know cables are system dependent!,at the cost of cables that I bought into,I do not change cables for componets!,I change componets to match the synergy of the cables!,LOL!,the cables are to exspensive to do other wise,I love the sound of taralabs cables!,I have been buying them for 25 years!,if a componet does not sound good with such an esoteric wire such as the taralabs zero gold that I do have,that componet no longer is in my system,or say,the nordost odin,again,that componet is history!,Its the same as buying cables to match a componet,I just do it differently,The zero and odin are very nuetral and ruthlessly revealing!,if there is something wrong with the sound,it most likely is not the cables!,these types of cables will reveal the weakest part of a system!,or expose poor recordings!,I do not waste money on taking a gamble on a componet that may or may not sound good on the cables I am useing,Its a very thought out process,I make sure the componet works with the cables before I buy the componet!,with this caliber of cables,my statement,I will not have to change cables ever!,Its the end game for me with cables,They cost to much!,and I do not agree that fricken cables should cost this much!,but to better my sound to what I am looking for,I had to pay the cost!,I have no regrets! the sound is very real sounding to anyone who has ever listened to my system!,A toast to all!,cheers! |
@ Jimyork,thankyou!very agreeable! |
Jimyork, I agree with you, as a conservative, that it is hard not to talk past each other on the important issues of our time. Like wire. ;)
To wannabe saviors, If you don't want to play with wire, Don't ! You can buy and sell used cables on this site with no loss of money and decide for yourself or use the Cable Company's services. Why get all upset, when you can test cables in your system. If Monster sounds best in your system, Great! If it's the $3000 Elrods, well that's up to you and your wallet.
Don't try to save us! We will figure out what's best for us. |
02-23-13: Audiolabyrinth
@ Rok2id,no my entire system cost $70,000.00 ,not the cables!,thou the cables did cost more than the componets,as time gos,I can move up the componet food chain and not worry about changing cables ever!cheers!
02-23-13: Rok2id
Audiolabyrinth my friend, it just don't work like that. If you change a component. you must change the cables, because these things are very carefully matched and any component change requires the wire to be changed. Rok2id makes a valid point here, IMO. From a technical standpoint, see my post in this thread dated 2-18-13, and the second of the two links I provided in that thread. From an anecdotal standpoint, findings that cable performance tends to be system dependent have been cited in a great many past threads here and elsewhere, by people whose ideological views on cables fall well within the "believer" part of the spectrum. Concerning the broader issue that is being, um, discussed here, I would point out that a belief that cables can sound different, to which I subscribe, says nothing about the degree of correlation that can be expected between cable performance and cable price. The aforementioned system dependency, which as I said can be supported both technically and anecdotally, would seem to be one reason (among many others that could be cited) to expect that correlation to be a loose one. Regards, -- Al |
Irvrobinson:
You are absolutely correct in everything you said. I think I will take your advice and go watch 'Gunsmoke'.
Glad to see the Peter Aczel reference. He is a real hero in the field of audio.
Cheers
Thanks for the support. It gets lonely on this place. :) |
Rok2id, I've been where you are, done what you have, in that I tried to argue the unarguable on the Audiogon cable forum. You are absolutely, positively correct, and it won't make slightest bit of difference to those who are convinced they can hear differences attributable to anything from cryo-treated electrical outlets to USB cables. I think it was in 2006 I amused myself with a few posts, and finally walked away, sated from the arguments. You can't win. You should come over to Audioholics, where more reasonable discussions prevail.
The Cable Lie, as Peter Aczel called it, is the most pernicious of all of the myths in audio, mostly meant to separate people from their money. I should emphasize that I don't want to demean high quality materials and good workmanship. A well-made, beautiful cable, that's solidly built with great connectors can have the same sort of intrinsic value advantage that a Breitling watch has over a plastic electronic thing. Most of us would rather have the Breitling, though they both tell time equally well. Aesthetic value is still value. But the notion that two properly designed and constructed cables for a particular application will sound different is just plain wrong.
You can argue with the true believers until your wear our your keyboard and it won't change anything. |
The case against empirical evidence.
1) Your ears don't hear sound, they hear wires, which all sound the same.
2) What we know so far, scientifically, is to be discarded regarding our hearing
since all wires conduct sound the same way, so why bother trying?
3) Our hearing limits are confined to the way all wires pass a signal, which are the same, and not the sound we actually hear.
4) Well trained ears hear only wires and amps, not the sound they produce.
5) No amount of money can change the sound a wire makes.
6) Any metal in the form of a wire will sound the same so just sit back and enjoy.
The case for empirical evidence:
It makes a lot more sense than the above.
:-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
The case against wire:
1)NO ONE has ever demostrated that they can hear wire
2)There is no measurable or scientific basis for hearing wire
3)The limits of human hearing
4)Golden ears have tried and failed with wire and amps
5)Given human greed and pride, there would not be a million dollar prize still on the table to the person who demonstrates he/ she can hear wire.
6)No one explains WHY wire should sound different, the periodic table theory notwithstanding.
The casr for wire:
I can hear a difference.
Cheers |
Dehydration! That explains everything. |
"Rok, above you have some well thought-out comments and challenges to your stance"
Point them out. For the life of me I can't see them.
"Oh, hell! Man, you are out of your league"
and what league would that be?
"so I will do the generous thing and try, once again, to point out the error of your ways"
No one say you are not generous with your time and thoughts. I know I appreciate it. Send some that rain to Texas. We Need it.
Cheers |
Rok, above you have some well thought-out comments and challenges to your stance, and you continue to ignore and disregard them. The easy answer at this point would be to simply say: "Man, you are out of your league; and I don't mean as far as your gear goes". But, hey, it's a rainy Sat afternoon and I have a few minutes of free time, so I will do the generous thing and try, once again, to point out the error of your ways :-) You wrote:
****Read my posts, and all the responses to my posts, from the beginning of this thread, and then tell me I am the name caller. Tell me I started it.****
I don't know what you consider "name calling", but I now it when I hear (read) it. Your first post:
****Could it be a variation of this:
Mass hysteria manifesting as collective symptoms of disease is sometimes referred to as mass psychogenic illness or epidemic hysteria. Mass hysteria typically begins when an individual becomes ill or hysterical during a period of stress.[6] After this initial individual shows symptoms, others begin to manifest similar symptoms.
Besides, peer pressure and wanting to belong to an elite group is a factor. Who wants to ADMIT he can't hear what EVERYONE else says they can hear? My system can resolve as well as yours!!! I have golden ears also!!! I am just as much an audiophile as anyone else!!! And so on and so on****
Oh, hell! Man, you are out of your league. |
"It seems you have changed your position during the course of this thread to one of someone who was not involved to one of disrespect and name calling."
Read my posts, and all the responses to my posts, from the beginning of this thread, and then tell me I am the name caller. Tell me I started it.
Some of you people are so obvious and lacking in the ability to read, think, or follow a line of thought, it would take someone with the patience of Job not to call you names. But as someone said earlier, in the greater scheme of things, this ain't very important. And another thing, most of you do not even know what the question is. It's not about me or my system or you and your system. It's not even about stereo!
BTW, has anyone noticed that people have a tendency to get a lot more upset and vocal over hearing the truth, than they do over hearing untruths. Esp those that are true believers. Almost as if their beliefs cannot withstand a challenge. Jusr something I have observed in life. Its almost as if the truth is 'dangerous'.
Cheers |
When one accuses others of drinking the kool-aid it presupposes that the accuser is of the correct and factual point of view (if such a thing exists). Said person then goes on to state that all he did was scrounge up some ramblings from others who support his view better than he can articulate and then passes it on in the role of messenger.
Disingenuous at best.
Said person is an active participant throwing others stones thinking they're better than the ones he has but he's still the one throwing them.
To be offended at the prose used to describe an event is understandable. Poetic license only goes so far. Some are better at it than others. But that shouldn't detract from the fact that not all cables sound the same. This is a great example of going off into the weeds, loosing sight of the topic ( a ploy perhaps?)
I may have champaign taste and a beer pocket book like most out there but within those limits lies lots of cables within my price point and every one of them sounded different. All one needs do is try to keep an open mind and ear.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Bring back some Dots for me, if you don't mind. |
By all means, keep on keeping on.....I just gotta run out and get some fresh popcorn. ;) |
It really is interesting how widely differing the opinions are on this topic. I have personally done double blind listening tests on cables with a group of listeners who all without exception picked in one test that changing one power cord connecting the CD player (NBS Statement extreme to a Stereolab Dragon Widowmaker) without a doubt improved the sound. |
|
Rok2id wrote:
02-17-13: Rok2id
Zd542,
I think you have me confused with someone else as pertains to wire. On this thread, I am just a messenger. All I posted, about cable, was from people a lot more knowledgeable than me. I just delivered the message. I didn't drink the Wire kool-aid, so I am not involved. Just trying to be helpful. HOWEVER, when some one says a cable is 'danceable', I have to speak. After all I am only human. There is only so much a human can take.
I am not a player is the wire debate. Blue Jeans is all need.
---------------------------------
Rok2id later wrote:
And btw, if you spent $70,000(US) on mostly cables, you are a very respectful idiot!
---------------------------------
It seems you have changed your position during the course of this thread to one of someone who was not involved to one of disrespect and name calling.
If you are happy with your dorm-room hifi, fine. I cannot imagine why one who claims to totally eschew the "hype" of high-end products, spends so much time talking about it. Everyone is entitled to their views and I think that uncivilized behavior should be avoided. Not censored, just avoided. |
****The ones who get it right, IMO, are those who buy what they can actually hear and don't buy what they can't. ****
Yes, which is implicit in what I said. How can one determine value if one can't hear a difference?
Regards. |
This topic of whether cables make a difference or not has been going on for some time. I categorize this difference of opinions as "alternate universes". The same type of discussions go on between Democrats and Republicans. I am a long-time Democrat. I have stopped trying to explain my views to Republicans. Their values and understanding of the situation are so diametrically opposed to mine that it is impossible to bridge the gaps. I don't like to discuss the topic for risk of destroying friendships (even though there is so much at stake). Fortunately, this discussion on the value of good audio cables does not hold the future in balance. In the case of audio cables, I started hearing the differences they could make in the late 90's. I have spent a lot of money on cables and I try to make balanced decisions on the purchase of cables between the investment of equipment and cables. However, the bottom line should be achieving the most enjoyment out this hobby as my finances can afford. So I think those who believe in cables (those in a "after market cable valued universe") should spend their money on what they believe will achieve the most enjoyment and those who don't (those not in a "after market cable valued universe") should respect those positions and invest in and enjoy the aspects of audio that give them the most enjoyment. And for those who haven't decided which universe they are in concerning audio cables, they should be given guidance that will allow them to make their own decision.
So every time I see this topic raised, I just move on to the next topic. I am not going to get worked up over the question. And, hopefully, those who have spent the time to read this philosophical perspective may take heed and move on towards the real objective of this hobby - enjoyment.
Thanks for reading and enjoy! |
You're digging quite a deep hole there.
All the best,
Nonoise |
"All metals are different. They react differently though some may appear or are assumed to react in a similar manner, otherwise, why are they separated on the periodic table? Standards derived from one type of metal don't translate to every other metal out there."
Sophism Indeed!!! |
This is more akin to a political discussion than one about a hobby. Everyone can have their own opinions but everyone cannot have their own facts.
The fanatically heated responses border on religion as well. Belief in a sentence or saying becomes a mantra and guiding principle from which springs all manner of sophism.
All metals are different. They react differently though some may appear or are assumed to react in a similar manner, otherwise, why are they separated on the periodic table? Standards derived from one type of metal don't translate to every other metal out there.
What I'd like to see is for the naysayers to compare as many different types of coathangers out there as possible in a double blind test and then get back to the rest of the world with their findings. The coathangers have to be made of as many different types of metal as possible and of as many differing diameters as well and have as wide a variety of coatings as possible.
Until then.
All the best,
Nonoise |
@ chayro, thankyou!,for the 2-23-13 post,I feel I fall under those guidlines!,cheers! |
Audiolabyrinth:
I misread about the cost of your cables. Now I understand, your cables cost over 35,000 dollars. Hell, that ain't so bad. I am sure you hear every dollar. So excuse my previous outbrust. But I do have a question about this statement:
"I can move up the componet food chain and not worry about changing cables ever!cheers!"
Audiolabyrinth my friend, it just don't work like that. If you change a component. you must change the cables, because these things are very carefully matched and any component change requires the wire to be changed. Go back to your book on 'How to be an Audiophile' and look up the chapetr on SYNERGY. Ever hear of it? You mix the wrong wire with the wrong component and you could suffer severe ear hemorrhage!
Your plan / theory sounds logical, but in the audiophile universe, homo sapiens logic does not apply.
Pay attention. You have a lot to learn about WIRE! :) It's not as simple as you seem to think. You can't just buy expensive good wire and then think you are fixed for life! I can, you can't. I have Blue Jeans 10awg, and that's all I will ever need. It's one of the advantages of having a cheap, one notch above YORX, non-audiophile stereo system. But you are running with the big boys. Those guys with golden ears and deep pockets. That's a different game!
Watch your back and your wallet!
Best wishes on your journey.
Cheers |
The ones who get it right, IMO, are those who buy what they can actually hear and don't buy what they can't. |
****It's interesting note that many are more concerned with the defense of their "beliefs" rather than the pieces of metal in question.****
Yes, on both sides of the question: those who spend the money and those who don't (won't). At the end of the day, it is probably those who look for value/reasonable cost who get it right; for whatever this is worth, since a hobby is just that, a hobby. |
It's interesting note that many are more concerned with the defense of their "beliefs" rather than the pieces of metal in question. |
@ Rok2id,no my entire system cost $70,000.00 ,not the cables!,thou the cables did cost more than the componets,as time gos,I can move up the componet food chain and not worry about changing cables ever!cheers! |
Yes. Valuable but way more hype than warranted. |
