Amazing just how short it takes to go into the weeds. And flounder there. Hopefully, this thread will have a short life. Personally, I've found that there is a difference but the differences pale in comparison to the price the higher up you go. Tobb, have your tried different cables? If not, go to http://www.thecableco.com/ and try their 30 day trial program. All you'll be out is shipping costs and 5% of the cable price-you can decide for yourself. All the best, Nonoise |
Double Blind Testing is nothing more than a parlor trick devised by people with an agenda. We've all known "friends" who for some reason never warmed to stereo like we did. Detraction started early for me as I went deeper into this hobby and those that didn't share my joy drifted away from stereo and me, some completely. Denial of the benefits of upgrading was mitigated by anger and resentment, yet some chose to stick around assuming the role of a self appointed ref of sorts. That only served to weaken the friendship as no one wants detractors hanging around which only strengthened their resentment. It never failed to amaze me just how people can separate themselves from others over such a small a matter as taste in a hobby. All the best, Nonoise |
This is more akin to a political discussion than one about a hobby. Everyone can have their own opinions but everyone cannot have their own facts. The fanatically heated responses border on religion as well. Belief in a sentence or saying becomes a mantra and guiding principle from which springs all manner of sophism. All metals are different. They react differently though some may appear or are assumed to react in a similar manner, otherwise, why are they separated on the periodic table? Standards derived from one type of metal don't translate to every other metal out there. What I'd like to see is for the naysayers to compare as many different types of coathangers out there as possible in a double blind test and then get back to the rest of the world with their findings. The coathangers have to be made of as many different types of metal as possible and of as many differing diameters as well and have as wide a variety of coatings as possible. Until then. All the best, Nonoise |
When one accuses others of drinking the kool-aid it presupposes that the accuser is of the correct and factual point of view (if such a thing exists). Said person then goes on to state that all he did was scrounge up some ramblings from others who support his view better than he can articulate and then passes it on in the role of messenger. Disingenuous at best. Said person is an active participant throwing others stones thinking they're better than the ones he has but he's still the one throwing them. To be offended at the prose used to describe an event is understandable. Poetic license only goes so far. Some are better at it than others. But that shouldn't detract from the fact that not all cables sound the same. This is a great example of going off into the weeds, loosing sight of the topic ( a ploy perhaps?) I may have champaign taste and a beer pocket book like most out there but within those limits lies lots of cables within my price point and every one of them sounded different. All one needs do is try to keep an open mind and ear. All the best, Nonoise |
The case against empirical evidence. 1) Your ears don't hear sound, they hear wires, which all sound the same. 2) What we know so far, scientifically, is to be discarded regarding our hearing since all wires conduct sound the same way, so why bother trying? 3) Our hearing limits are confined to the way all wires pass a signal, which are the same, and not the sound we actually hear. 4) Well trained ears hear only wires and amps, not the sound they produce. 5) No amount of money can change the sound a wire makes. 6) Any metal in the form of a wire will sound the same so just sit back and enjoy. The case for empirical evidence: It makes a lot more sense than the above. :-) All the best, Nonoise |
Audiolabyrinth, Your name speaks volumes for your idea that cables are the standard around which components should be chosen. Once you've found that synergy between components, any change should be carefully chosen to match the values that interact between components lest you end up chasing your tail, wondering why this or that doesn't sound right and end up replacing one component after another, screwing up the equation. The parameters you've settled on have a narrow window to experiment with and since you've spent a small fortune on cables, anything that's changed has to fall within those parameters or the magic is lost. It's nice to know there's another way to skin this cat. :-) All the best, Nonoise |
A reasonable person is always open to possibilities. Nothing is black and white and there are no absolutes: lots of grey area out there. Self appointed high priests of truth are dime a dozen, regardless of field. Sad to say they are here in audio as well. Yes, there are extravagant, over the top claims and snake oil a plenty but we seem to be dancing around the issue of what some people plainly lack: hearing acuity or the outright refusal to pay any more than necessary for what they feel is enough. This kind of forum will never sort it out. So let's just agree to disagree without the acrimony. Next thing we'll see are protestors with signs and placards outside of audio shows denouncing the evil and unclean amongst us who would dare proclaim that we can do better. When that happens, I'll know for certain I am on the right side of the equation as they will reveal themselves to be truly on the fringe. All the best, Nonoise |
Are "properly designed" and "given application" escape clauses? If so, then you've just described a cable made to order for a "specific" application. Friend who are not into this hobby as much as I can hear the difference as well but don't consider it important enough to worry about it. That alone speaks volumes as I suspect that that is the underlying meme going on here. All the best, Nonoise |
Okay. One set of cables are designed to "fit" the requirements of an amp and a pair of speakers. Said cable will not work as well with other amps and speakers since they are of different design and needs. No one cable is good enough for all applications? Did we just come full circle? I have several sets of cables that sound different to anyone who would care to listen and all are well regarded, well made cables. So it seems that a cable that would fit the requirements of a given system can only be made one way and if anyone makes that particular cable, they should all sound the same. That I understand but doesn't it stand to reason that there need be as many types of cable needed to satisfy the particular requirements of all the possible combinations of amps, speakers, length and gauge in order to get the best possible sound? I don't mean to sound obtuse (though I've been accused of being stubborn) but I think we're all agreeing on this from different perspectives. All the best, Nonoise |
Here we go off the civil path. Neither foolish nor difficult, but patient enough to tolerate another's view. Wish I could say the same. How does that saying go? "I'll support any man searching for the truth but will fight anyone who claims to know it." I just don't agree and am trying to understand your point of view. Bare in mind I'm not going to agree with you. I've seen the same wire constructed with many different terminations (even bare) all measure the same and yet most here would agree that terminations impart their own sound. Some feel, like me, that bare wire is the best way to go. To me it stands to reason that within those same measurements lie more variance than some care to admit. And as for gauge, why do my 18 gauge Mapleshade SCs sound better than other, thicker guage SCs? I'm talking Zu Mission, Music Metre, Supra SCs that are up there in thickness, well made, and yet can't keep up with what the Mapleshades have to offer. Don't bother responding if you're inclined to be nasty. All the best, Nonoise |
In those intervening six years or so you'll find lots here of the same mind as me who've already stated as much in other threads and are of a wider exposure and experience level and are given much more respect and difference in their thoughts and views. After all, it's just a conversation, not a conversion to be had. All the best, Nonoise |
One thing I've noted is the amount of hubris some here display when making a point. POVs are made with a modicum of bile. Discourse is peppered with denunciations. Positions are stated as fact allowing nothing but acquiescence as an answer. Open minded? When the maps in ones head don't correspond to the actual territory in the real world, things go awry. People get angry quickly. Knee jerk defensive reactions take the place of discourse. Smarmy snark becomes the norm. Fiberglass traces, miles of Nomex, and internal wiring are all red herrings. They seem to the casual reader to be of import but they are specious arguments, at best. They don't fit into the argument but are used to deflect attention. One thing traces, internal wiring and Nomex have in common is that they are all set. Let that sink in for a minute. The amp is already voiced the way it's been built. To change anything internally will change the sound. Ask any designer. Internal wiring, traces and layout all affect the sound. The same goes for speakers. All designers fuss over internal wiring, crossover design, etc. Laymen and DIYers can use product of lesser value and be happy with the result but they are on a learning curve and not to be confused with the better efforts out there. The wall receptacle is fixed as well. Nothing can be done to it unless you, say, run a dedicated line or go all battery: off the grid. What is being discussed is what can be done between the wall and the amp and the speaker (there's the logic). What is (and should by now) be discussed is the differences we hear (which we can). Some differences more easily than others, hence the discussion. Note: I said discussion. Naysayers and flat earthers need better arguments than "you can't hear it". All the best, Nonoise |
Irv, to say I believe in differences is not an insult but for you to hear it is?. That's rich. That would be like one religion saying another religion insults them just for being different. Presupposing a superior position can only lead to a falling of sorts. Now when one is called silly when one had nothing better to say, is an insult. My response is nothing more than a response to an insult. There is a planet full of amp and speaker designers out there of repute who would disagree with you. Nothing non-sensical in that. They all have preferences in cabling based on their design. That speaks volumes. Engaging those professionals at the next audio show you go to would go a long way provided some of them might be willing to discuss it with you. As for your analogy of who is a flat earther, I disagree. A flat earther would say what is apparent is only what can be seen, so the earth would seem flat. Even before it could be observed otherwise, it was supposed that it wasn't. That would be those who believe otherwise, or in our case, the cable difference believers. All the best, Nonoise |
Al, Thanks again, for chiming in. Your insight is always welcome, comprehensive, and calming. Would it be that we all had that same discipline. Irv, I've disagreed with you but never mentioned your maturity or experience. I simply doubt you or your systems aural acuity as there are cables laying about my place that all sound different that anyone who has been to my place can attest to and none of them are badly or improperly made and that work in any system. None of them were that expensive nor would I condone dropping mucho coin on cables unless one could afford to. I know I can't. Simple as that, all mass delusion theories aside. I, and others, do hear a difference. As I've said earlier here and elsewhere, I've come across people who do hear the difference but simply don't think it makes that big a difference and it's only been through debating it that they finally admit it. I believe it due to the nature of this hobby and the ridiculous prices some pay thinking it will make a dramatic difference in their lives. (this is not to impugn Audiolabrynth who's took a different and interesting route in assembling his system). This enmity seems to be a in the form of a redress of sorts taken up with a well intentioned but misguided belief that one can set things straight if only they scold others enough. It's only a discussion. All the best, Nonoise |
Rok2id, This is the last post I'll make on this subject until someone else forgets and posts another thread on the matter, starting it all over again. Your suggestion on DBT has already been shot down. Your victory screed of rising above the fray, waving your sword, and claiming victory is a poor take on St. Crispens speech. DBT has adherents who say there are no differences in properly designed amps and speakers as well. Next thing you know, people will be driven in cars, flown on planes, seated in restaurants, listen to live opera, all blindfolded, and dared to proclaim differences as to car, aircraft, food and singer and then told it's all in their heads. But if you feel strongly enough about it, by all means, proceed to the other threads here and do your level best to knock them down as well. With all the threads about cables, amps and speakers, you and the naysayers could make a career of it. Maybe you could do a sequel to "The Prestige". :-) All the best, Nonoise |
Danoroo, There is a thread here, somewhere, where Douglas Schroeder (a reviewer) tried out a high end Van Alstine ABX Comparator Switchbox and it was like a cold bucket of water in the face as it was impossible to tell the difference between amps with levels properly matched but the kicker was the biggest difference was between cables. It was very easy for him to hear the differences. So use your ears and try out some within your budget and you'll find some that suits your needs. All the best, Nonoise |
I expected such a response. We're all reviewers of some sort, no? What makes us, here, so special? I tried to find the thread here where he mentions it but couldn't. My memory wasn't as good as I thought so I went and dug up the article and after quite an exhaustive set up and conditioning, he could discern differences but they were slight. Repeatable but slight. There were enough clues to go on but how many here go to that length? I'm in no way going full Pete Aczel here but if you if you do match levels and don't clip the amp, the cables will make a bigger difference. It''s so easy to be an armchair warrior. All the best, Nonoise |
Z, you're quickly becoming the resident crank, if not already. Hyperbole is your vessel. You're as over the top with knee jerk reactions as anyone I've seen. It must be nice up there on Olympus throwing those (oh so hurtful, my, my) thunderbolts of wisdom. How you came to the conclusion that my mind was already made up is beyond me. Quoting someone to add perspective doesn't translate to a closed mind. It's just another perspective added to the mix (keep your options open). Also, anyone can go to his website and see the many amps he's reviewed but the ABX comparator review came afterwards. I don't believe he's done an amp review since. There is a timeline here of sorts that would make it apparent to just about anyone who'd care to do a proper search. About the two different amps he refers to here on A'gon (the thread I couldn't find) he ABX'd two different amps that I believe were from Wells Audio (the Akasha and Innamorata) and was sincerely puzzled as in sighted reviews he could discern a difference but when ABX'd, it was very difficult. As for Al's thoughtful and considerate approach (something you could learn from), I believe both possibilities do apply. Nothing is absolute and quite difficult to reproduce in any reliable manner. But I'll go so far as to say that based on my experience, if everything remains constant in your system and you only have one variable, cables will make a bigger difference than amps provided you listen at the same levels, staying within the limits of the amp. Not a harsh or hard to fathom concept, Z. Also, if anyone can find that thread with Mr. Schroeder's contribution you'll see where I offered that maybe the ABX device was the equalizer and played an unintended role, which may add weight to my thinking that despite the coloring of the music by the comparator, the cables were able to get in the way of the music more than the amps could. Nothing here to go nuclear over, nothing to see here folk, move along. All the best, Nonoise |
My quote was from the very end of the articles on the ABX comparator. As I said, what he wrote in a thread here on A'gon went even further than the review and was what I referred to in my original post. I just used the link to the ABX Comparator so people would know what I was talking about. His review of 12/14 would have no bearing being well before the ABX testing and the only review from Dagago on the Wells Audio Innomarata on 5/15 is from another reviewer, Greg Petan, not Douglas Schroeder. If there is another review by Schroeder on it I'd love to see a link to it. Also, I don't see why he would use the Comparator in any other review since he did it for his own edification and simply became a better, more disciplined reviewer. All the best, Nonoise |
Z, it's good to see you've toned it down quite a bit. Like I've already mentioned, the comparison he made was between two different Wells Audio amps and he found it very difficult to tell the difference between the two using the ABX comparator. It was on a thread here on A'gon not too long ago. It could very well be that he hears a difference between two different makes. I used this and this to cite his work after the ABX testing and can't locate any review of his on the D'Agostino Momentum amp as a formal review, let alone a comparison done with an ABX comparator. Were you citing from a show review? As for having any impact on his ability to review going forward, he does address it in the article on the ABX comparator: I believe the most seasoned listeners who concentrate to a potential orientation error could pass such ABX testing. Frank Van Alstine seems to concur that one can pass ABX Comparator testing with regularity, but it takes focussed concentration. In a noisier environment, or with distractions, even those caused by other listeners, I think the results could suffer significantly.I believe that's more than one word. What it will take is someone who can find the thread here on A'gon where he mentions the article and the quandary it left him in at the moment. It was in that thread where he mentioned how it was easier to hear differences between cables than amps. There's enough conventional wisdom on both sides of the debate to make it a moot point but let's let civility rule the day. All the best, Nonoise |
