Cable Break In for the Naysayers

Congratulations @ozzy 

I hope to someday get new PC’s, but first I’m saving for a better streamer.

it’s a bit disturbing that, even today, there are self-identified audiophiles who ridicule those who hear differences between cables. This issue, frankly, was settled long ago.

In fact, there was a study published in MIT’s Electronic Music Journal back in, I think, the 1980s or 1990s, that documented cable-comparison testing with a double-blind methodology. I remember scanning that piece & probably could dig it up today if I had to.

The study found that that some participants could easily distinguish among cables, but others had trouble. One anonymous tester (identified only by initials "JA" (!) ) scored 100% on all tests. Better than five-zero confidence, right?

In my case, two of the three most dramatic changes to my system in the last 20 years were due to major cable upgrades -- once interconnects, once power cables. These were "quantifiable" differences to the extent that, with the old cables, I could point to the specific locations of clearly defined images around the room. After swapping in the new cables, the soundstage broadened so significantly that the images in the same recordings moved to new locations. This was repeatable and not a subtle effect. Other cable upgrades in my system, however, produced no effect that I could hear, at least before break-in.

In all these examples, the point is that not hearing a difference isn’t conclusive evidence either way of the fact that cables can matter (there could easily -- even likely -- be weaker links in the audio chain), but hearing a difference does.

My personal opinion, and again this is based mostly on "mere" personal experience, is that those who still cling to the "cables don’t matter" faith-based belief are either sufferring from confirmation error or drawing unwarranted conclusions from ad hoc comparisons.

My 2c.

@tooblue my power cords changed drastically after i switched from burned in demo cords to the brand new cords I purchased (same models).  I think getting used to a particular sound is part of it too, but not in this particular case.

I can partially agree with the people who aren’t into measurements. My agreement is that we don’t always know what a good measurement should look like. But here’s what I firmly believe. If an audible change has happened, that change will be measurable. All it takes is some effort. We don’t have god-like hearing. Test equipment is orders of magnitude more sensitive to subtle changes in the signal. No change that we can hear is going to get past the equipment. If an audible change has occurred because of cable burn-in, that will be easily measurable by a competent person with decent equipment. 

I recently tested a group of integrated amplifiers and thought I was hearing differences. I took out the calibrated mic. and compared the speaker measurements with the different amps hooked up. The frequency response showed very clear and repeatable differences depending on which amp was hooked up. I'm not all that competent, nor is my measuring equipment anything special, and yet even I could demonstrate measurable differences in the response of my speakers with different integrated amps installed. If I heard differences between cables, I'm sure I could measure that too.

I don’t agree. I do not believe equipment exists (yet) to measure the burn in/breakin of cables. But if you had the audio equipment and ears you would be a believer.

I remember feeling the same way as you do now many years ago about power cords. I felt how can a power cord change the musical sound quality? I was sure they would test the same. Wire is wire...right?

But a dealer gave me a Synergetic Research Master Coupler to take home and try. When I first connected it up, I was convinced as you are now that it could not possibly make a difference. Then I cued up the first song and ... huh? How can this be? More bass, bigger soundstage??? Just from changing a power cord that is supposed to be the same gauge? Can’t be...

From that day on I was convinced that we really don’t know as much as we think we know when it comes to sound quality, equipment, and yes cables. Measurements can only test OHMs Law.

ozzy

Those who claim absolutes seem rather narrow minded and ignore real science as it actually has shown us many things and will continue to do so. As as touched upon by another poster all there is is a lot of energy and maybe just a tiny bit of mass in the universe. Look into it, amazing way to spend your time instead of nay saying something you may not be open minded enough to comprehend.

My personal "belief" as in all things I am aware of are subject to change as I learn more each day I live. I do not know anything, only believe somethings, glad to adapt as I experience a new perspective.

Do cables burn in? I believe it is quite likely just based on actual science(I read a great deal and watch incredible videos of highly regarded scientists, doctors, engineers, etc...)

Is there  bit of snake oil involved in some of this? I am quite sure there is but I am not going to try to prove or disprove it. I will just enjoy the level I choose to participate in having some fun, DIY and lower cost, building cables, speakers, etc....I enjoy the bobby and the music, probably hobby more but it is only one of many I have.

If I were to recommend anything it would be to give up on trying to change someones mind either way, not likely going to happen so the time used up is basically just pissing in the wind, surely there are better things to do.

Beware, having an open mind can be a disturbing experience, science, politics, actual history, religion and more are not often close to what most believes as fact.

Rick

@raam  Well said.  I often wonder which is funnier.   Watching Dems and Republicans argue, or cable believers  vs cable deniers.  Never a dull moment either way. 🤣

Here is a review of AudioQuest battery cable.

 

That Audio Science guy is always negative about HI-End audio stuff. He does all these measurements but never actually listens to music to evaluate.

ozzy

ozzy

Great thread as always. Which XLR did the new AQ THunderbird XLR replace?

Are you placing the new AQ between Amp/Pre-Amp? Or, Pre-Amp and Source?

Happy Listening!

jafant,

I had an opportunity to replace both my speaker cables (used) and the interconnect cable (new) with the AQ Thunderbird. Now along with my AQ Dragon power cords and the AQ 7000 conditioner I now have a complete loom of all AQ cabling.

I am not using a preamp; I am going straight from my Lumin X1 to my mono block amps.

ozzy

I think that audio science guy really likes the Topping Equipment. He claims it really tests well with his lab equipment.

Has anyone actually used this equipment? I have, and it sounds terrible, so sterile! No life in the music.

Tests great, sounds bad. 

ozzy

Yeah, the measurement thing can be a real dichotomy in that it would be nice for both measurements and listening experiences to match, either both good or both bad, but alas, that too often doesn't seem to be the case with this audio stuff.

I have not owned Topping gear but I have owned Benchmark's linestage and their top DAC (still own) and I agree, no matter how well Stereophile says they measure, to me they sound neutral to the point of being sterile.  The don't do anything "wrong" but they also don't engage me.  However, I had similar thoughts about Mola Mola's Tambaqui, which I would describe as sounding "perfect" but not as engaging as two other DACs I have here (not the Benchmark).

I have heard the difference between new and broken-in cabling nearly all my audiophile life.  Even when I had my first real audiophile system I was able to tell the difference between the new and broken-in cabling.  I recently purchased Iconoclast speaker cables and while they sounded good right out of the box, after about 100-hours of music played, they really smoothed out.  It's challenging to describe the differences in sound, however it improved notably from first listens.  I believe that is true for components as well.  I remember changing the output capacitors in my preamp from Jenzens to Duelund CAST and boy I didn't care for the initial sound !  Hard and cold is how I'd describe it but after a good deal of playing, the transformation was amazing.  I'm glad the designer said to just wait.  The sound will change.  He was right.  I don't think it was the metallurgy but break-in of the dielectric that I believe made the difference.  So, I'm a definite believer of the effect of break-in on the sound.  

I heard it with my own ears is the least believable response that one could give.
The human brain is very dynamic and is the most reasonable explanation to why it’s not cable burn in, but brain adaptation.

Electron flow doesn’t change in cables after time and no one has ever given a truly scientific explanation on what could possibly happen to create an audible difference
in the molecular structure that could be attributed to people’s claims.

I’ve done analysis of ultra-high speed cables used in super computer interconnects and never did we have to worry about metallic cables changing properties after use. Electro-migration in semi-conductors is a real phenomenon, but we’re dealing with tiny areas of metallization where a difference of a small percentage of material can have a real world effect.
 

Yeah, you can believe the true Audiophiles who actually listen to music not measurements.

Earbuds probably measure pretty well too.

ozzy

@liquidsound 

+1

Imagination is a powerful thing. 

Anyone who thinks if cannot be a possibility if it cannot be measured has a bit of a head in the sand(or a darker place)issue as we have barely begun to even design test gear capable of such measurements, let alone fully understand some of the most advanced things we actually use. We are in the dark ages compared to where we will be going in all things and I believe this particular civilazation is going to make it, unlike at least 4 before us.

I also believe, not know, that once past a certain point, break in, design, cost....the law of diminishing returns hits pretty hard, mostly what we start getting into is differences and those can be quite profound and enable that synergy so often talked about. I choose to do so strictly DIY as can save a fortune on it, even when I had ten times the income as I do now I still practiced that way of doing things.

I had a new power cable put into my system this week. It sounded immeditately better, but also had introduced what seemed like a phase issue for the first 2 days of 4-5 hour listening sessions. On day 3 listening session it settled into what it's supposed to sound like.

How there is even a question about cable break-in is beyond me. I have to presume either their room/ listening environment is less than ok, no enough resolution in the gear/system/ system not setup properly, or ears aren't up to par. It's real. No tin hats or flat earth BS here. 

Sorry Jaygilb but there is no way my ears made good with what was coming out of my speaker cables when I first used them. There were times when the signal was so garbled was completely unlistenable. To each his own.

I’m kind of concerned about @jasonbourne52 anyone seen him around lately? Shouldn’t he be here complaining?    : )

Oh, did you not hear - he found that cable break-in is true and have started comparing different cables. Lets wait to hear from him about his findings.

I guess everyone has an opinion on this subject and I would like to hear it. For those of you who believe all cables are the same, please can you describe the sound quality you have experienced before or after the scientific measurements; do they agree with the sound quality?

Have you ever tried other cables? Did any of them sound different?

And most important, share with us the type of audio equipment you are using, including cables, amps, speakers etc.

ozzy

@liquidsound 

@ghdprentice 

+2

@willywonka : At last a sane voice among the nut cases!​​

I would be interested to know if anyone has ever done a blind or double-blind test with cables. Two sets of identical cables, one broken in for 500 hours, and the other with no hours of use.  The test would consist of the same amp, source and speakers - just toggling back and forth between cables A and B.  Would anyone be willing to bet $5000 that they can consistently tell which cables are being played?  I am guessing that answer is NO.  Or, I suppose the mysterious "broken-in phenomena" suddenly disappears after you disconnect the wires from the source and speakers?

I’m not going to settle this debate, but I can tell you this with 100% certainty

If you google this topic you will find hundreds of threads over many years where you get the exact same arguments on both sides and it always ends right where it started... nowhere.

like all the threads before this one and all that will come after they are  and always will be a complete and utter waste of time

When it comes to break-in I will quote Dug and say, "I'm having two feelings."

I have some balanced Morrow Audio MA4 interconnects.  I didn't focus much on the break-in, but here's how I would describe my experience:

The expectation bias was set by their cable owners manual that essentially says that the cables start out sound good, then go through a period where they sound bad, and then they get great.

When I first hooked them up they sounded amazing and I spent quite a bit of time listening.  Then there was a couple of days where I wouldn't describe the sound as obviously bad, but I would just listen for a couple of minutes and then walk away.  After even more time I started getting sucked into listening again.  I can't say that I could tell a difference between. new and broken in with absolute certainty, but I can say that there were a period of time where I didn't find my system engaging when before and after that time I had to pull myself away and this period of time aligned with what Morrow Audio described.

I try to identify a scientific reason for the things that I experience and I've got nothing for cable break-in.

I would say for any naysayers buy anything with rhodium. If you want an example of extreme break in, all naysayers should buy a Furutech rhodium NCF outlet. 

I am not here to argue this point. However, I do wish one of the cable makers or some audiophile physicist would explain the science behind cable break-in.

The Naysayers opinion on cable breakin is probably due to the system that is used (and perhaps the ears) is not revealing enough.

And/if you progress through this hobby with better equipment, cables and the breakin will be more apparent.

ozzy

Ozzy - if that's what you hear then go for it.  The mind can do incredible things that feel very real.

@ozzy

I will put my system up against any out there and I’ll bet that it comes out as equal to far better than any out there 99% of the time, at any price point.

I will also say that once you arrive at the quality level of my system, it’s mostly subjective: what sounds good to me may very well sound like a crapper to you and vice versa.

Please note in the link below that I do not bother to include cables in my list of system components. I do include the room designer. If people only spent 1/10 of the time discussing room design as they do cable design, they might find themselves getting some genuine improvements to the sound of their system.

“…I just experienced cable break in firsthand…”

Good for you! Some of us ascribe that to the placebo effect. I’m one of them. In my 55 years experience since building a Dyna70 at age 14, I have had plenty of time to experiment with dozens of cables. In all that time, I perceived differences in only a few, and that perception could be ascribed to my mood as much as any concrete material quality of the cable, and certainly nothing that justified the outrageous sums that were being asked for them. I do have brand name cables, but they are only because they are the least expensive of the ones that I settled upon after all the experimentation. I cannot tell you what they are because I settled this question for myself decades ago.

Imo those sums of money are instead better on room treatment. If 1/10 of the time was spent discussing the science of room acoustics instead of cables, we would all be better off.

Sorry, but your system looks like a beginner’s system. Like we all started out with. It may be good for home theater though.

If you like it, then enjoy it!

ozzy

@ozzy 

"The Naysayers opinion on cable breakin is probably due to the system that is used (and perhaps the ears) is not revealing enough.

And/if you progress through this hobby with better equipment, cables and the breakin will be more apparent."

Really Ozzy, you want others to hear you and believe that cable break-in exists yet anyone who doesn't hear/perceive/believe in cable break-in is a "naysayer" who doesn't hear well enough and/or doesn't own a capable system, and who apparently has not progressed through the hobby to the point of enlightenment?  Seems pretty one-sided. No wonder these threads are divisive.  You can do better.

It all starts with the system, and our hearing. If you are happy with the equipment, you have and are enjoying the tunes, then that is all that really matters.

But don't claim all cables sound the same and breakin is just a myth.

I felt that way when I had Radio Shack equipment.

ozzy

I just got off the phone with my audio engineer. He has 40+ years experience in the industry. Besides building and repairing audio gear and guitar amps, he is also a recording engineer. He is also a guitarist and in the blues hall of fame.

We were talking about other issues but at the end I asked him about The Cable Wars.

it was a good 10-15 minute discussion but the Cliff Note version of his response is this: it’s all about the Benjamins. Make people believe, and you make more money. At the end, he said at best, cables may - may - make 1% difference, if that. The money is better spent elsewhere.

He agreed that far more attention should be put into room acoustics, that is where there is still a relative dearth of knowledge: witness how many times concert halls are redesigned and they still get it wrong.

I will conclude by posing the following question.

Suppose for the sake of argument - pun not intended - that it is absolutely true that cable interconnects make a big difference. Why then, is this philosophy not applied to all the internal wiring through all the components in an audio system: turntables, CD players, amps, preamps, speakers … and I am thinking in particular about those two skinny little braided wires that connect the spider to the cone.

I anxiously await the informed responses.

@atmasphere

BTW, a few years ago I said that I was disappointed in the sound of the recording that you did of the Mikis Theodorakis / Pablo Neruda “Canto General”.

I played it for the first time since I got my amps back from being away for months for refurbishing. My engineer said that due to the 40 year age of the amps, many parts - not just the tubes, which were running at only 60% of full strength - were at the end of their useful life. Without going into details at the moment, other than to say that he discovered an error that Julius Futterman made in his design over 50 years ago that for some reason everyone missed all of these years and that he corrected - it appears that the problem was with my aging - and ailing - amps and not your recording. My bad!

https://www.theaudioatticvinylsundays.com/about

“….Sorry, but your system looks like a beginner’s system. Like we all started out with. It may be good for home theater though….”

Who exactly, is this directed at? You are sounding like a troll now. 

Why on earth did I respond to this thread? I must have gotten out of the wrong side of bed this morning. 
 

Carry on. I’m outa here. 

“…But if you had the audio equipment and ears you would be a believer.…”

This is the giveaway with Ozzy. He just wants to argue his superiority over everyone else. The scientific basis for his assertion is non-existent: his expectation is instead that we bow down and revere his anecdotal experience as A Thing handed down from The Gods at the Summit of Mt Audio, where I presume He Himself fancies he resides.

Now I’m outa here.

@unreceivedogma   Nailed it.
 

I agree absolutely with getting the room right is far more important than cables can possibly be whether they make a difference or not. As for cables, there are things we just do not know and might not for generations to come, real science is a bunch of theories tested until something works out and tested again and again to find improvements. It is a never ending cycle thus we are not at the end of any of it yet and should never assume we know all there is, about anything. It is not a dead end Dogma which happens far to often in nearly all things humans do and it is only a tool to maintain the status quo, not to further enlightenment into the yet unknown.

Are there those that cannot hear a difference, sure, why not, good for them actually. Are those that can, I am sure there are, good for them as well. Are there those that believe there is a possibility of improvement, sure there are, I am one of them and have personal experience to the level I am comfortable in.

Instead of arguing over such a trivial pursuit it might be wise to invest some of that time and energy into things far more critical to the betterment and survival of all things living which includes everything. 

Rick

@raam

And some people believe there are tooth fairies. 
I prefer that which works for myself, so we agree on that much. I will not use that personal experience as a foundational edifice upon which to hang an Abdolutist Audio Ideology that I expect others to adhere to.