Buyer Dispute

Here is the listing, check out the feedback left by OP.  I am wondering why would buyer (kirbymydog) leaves a positive feedback without first testing the speakers?? 

“Professional, attentive and trustworthy seller. My items were packed well and with care. I hope that I have a chance to do business with this Audiogon member in the future. Thank you.”

Seems to me the seller took advantage of a buyer. 

Refund (regardless if buyer wanted to wait for tweeters because it looks like he/she stalled for time so buyer could not use Paypal to dispute the transaction) immediately, for $7000 speakers that don't work. Highly suspicious that seller did not know that BOTH tweeters were blown.

 Buyer needs to demand refund and patiently seek his dream speakers from someone else.

It's already past all of that oregon.

The positive feedback was left before listening critically to the loudspeakers. It was my bad. You can be sure I will never do that again. I would like to remove the feedback if I could and would certainly agree to have the positive feedback he left for me removed.

Adding to the above; Positive feedback given to the seller does not relieve the seller from his responsibilities to the buyer. I have an email chain that goes all the way back to the original sale that documents every step of this transaction.

The problem with leaving the positive feedback is that it implies that the speakers were working when you received them (and your feedback also commends the packaging, despite the damage that you mention in your original post). That, unfortunately, makes it much more difficult to prove that the seller is at fault.

Yes, I agree that it was a mistake on my part to jump the gun on positive FB. No question about it. Fortunately, the seller quickly agreed to replace them after I let him know that they were not working. On several occasions in his emails, he noted that he was going to resolve the problem for me. Perhaps I will post some of the emails.

drobin07-The question of fault has never really been a topic between me and the seller. The biggest issue for me was the time it was taking to resolve with the warranty solution. When the seller placed the warranty order, B&W (Encompass) was showing they would ship in 7 days. No problem. Once 7 days was up, it changed to 12 days. Then 56, etc. This went on for the last 6 months. And I had no idea how much longer it would take, and B&W was unable to tell me when they would be in stock again. How the tweeters were damaged was another issue. I informed the seller that I must agree to disagree that the tweeter voice coils became discontinuous during shipment. My experience in the recording industry, and my engineering background led me to this conclusion.

In any case, and as though on cue, B&W has restocked the tweeters as of yesterday. This issue will be resolved once I have them in hand.

Without having read it, I'll assume the positive feedback left for you was deserved. You met your obligation when you paid him.

The seller left very good feedback for me

kirbymydog,

Do you have an idea when you will receive the newly stocked tweeters from B&W?

ozzy

I just sent a message to the seller to review and post his side of the story.

ozzy

Tweeters are in stock, probably in Georgia. Once the order that the seller placed in July is filled, the seller will send them to me.

so audiogon did not mediate a solution?

The solution was the result of B&W finally stocking the tweeters. The seller can now follow through with replacing them for me. Once Bowers fills the order that he placed in July, the seller will forward them straight to me. Provided all of this happens, the issue is resolved.

@kirbymydog , you are a very patient man and applaud your character. I am not sure I could have waited this long and maintained a peace keeping attitude. Hope all goes well once they are installed. As the seller I would certainly surprise you with a gift for your patience and willingness to work with him.  

He's probably had enough surprises from the seller.

Thank you. I am looking forward to Listening!

I would like to see some response from the seller, who by now is certainly aware of this conversation. Will the seller verify that he personally heard the speakers fully operational before they were shipped? Was the seller the first (only) owner and only user?  It does appear that the warranty solution was offered quickly, so were the supply issues for replacement tweeters a known problem well before the transaction?

Good luck with that ozzy...

This issue is nearly resolved now that Bowers & Wilkins has restocked the tweeters. The question of how the tweeter voice coils became discontinuous will never be known short of an autopsy of the drivers. I have applied my knowledge to develop a strong opinion. The seller has his opinion and I agreed to disagree, and that was that. The seller offered a solution upon my telling him about the tweeters not working. The rub (as noted in my original forum post) was that I had been waiting 6 months for the tweeter to be in stock so that he could follow through. And B&W could not tell me when they would come in. Was I to wait another 6 months? Another 8 months? What is a reasonable timeframe? What other pathway to a resolution are there? Well, the wait is now over, and there will not be another 6 months wait. As if on cue, B&W has restocked the tweeter and the seller can now send replacements. Once I receive them, this issue will then be closed.

B&W sound like a reckless party to this too. 

I have had my own troubles with buying speakers as well, I can understand that it's easy to end up with a defective product and no support. 

Sounds like he knew the speakers were bad and did not want to wait himself for the new ones. Also he could have thought that the replacements might never come.

I think some sort of $ back to you would be fair.

Come on, TWO TWEETERS spontaneously and simultaneously self destruct??
No way. This guy is a first class creep, and he’s trying to pawn off his problem on you. Go after him with everything you’ve got.

All interesting discussion, but this is NOT the place to get something like this resolved. Way too much speculation in my opinion. There is always more to a story than meets the eye. The way you see it, the way I see it, and the way it really is. Just saying.....

I sympathize with both the seller and the buyer, assuming that they were not defective when sold. With proper freight shipping, they should have arrived with no damage at all, either to the speakers or the boxes. The fact they there was visible damage might indicate that something happened to them while the pallet was being loaded or transferred, perhaps.

That being said, Seller very reasonably offered to have the speakers repaired under warranty. How would he have known that it would take 6+ months to get the replacements? Similarly, Buyer acted very reasonably in accepting that offer, rather than returning the speakers, which he was certainly entitled to do, since he bargained for receipt of working speakers, not blown ones.

So what now? Clearly neither party contemplated that it would take so long to get the replacement. Buyer is completely justified in requesting a full refund. It is seller’s responsibility to get Buyer a working pair of speakers and he didn’t, whether his fault or not. That is why I ship anything expensive with insurance. Seller is clearly obligated to refund the money and take the speakers back.

I can easily relate to this because I shipped a DAC to a Buyer, and the screen (finicky on this DAC) worked when I had it in my system and didn’t work on arrival. Luckily, the screen wasn’t necessary to get it running since it has an app, but I gave Buyer the option: return it for a full refund or I will pay to get it fixed. He chose to hold onto it and get it fixed. Manufacturer has had the screens on backorder for 2 months now, and I told Buyer that and again offered to take the unit back. My reputation is far more important to me on here. Buyer again confirmed that he didn’t care, and may not even repair the screen, although I told him that would be a mistake, since he would have to fix it at some point. Bottom line is that sometimes crap  happens, and it is neither party’s fault. The Seller is ultimately responsible for getting working equipment to the Buyer. Period. Seller has to suck it up.

Dude, that Seller is full of sh$t!! Those tweeters were toast when he packed them up. He did you wrong on purpose, no forgiveness when it comes to that kind of money. Open a dispute NOW with PayPal or it will haunt you forever. Good luck! Dana

OP, don’t mean to cause you additional worry, but have you confirmed with B&W that replacement tweeters DO NOT have to be matched in order to meet their design goal? Does B&W match the tweeters used in these speakers? Perhaps not. Some manufacturers use only matched pairs for some of their models. I went through this with speakers using Dynaudio tweeters that needed replacement. The new tweeters were simply stock replacements (not matched as were the originals) and the result was a slight but audible reduction in image stability.  

I have not confirmed that. I will pose the question to their support staff.

So what were/are the shipping terms?  FOB "shipping point" or "destination".  That will tell you who owned what, when.  If you own it, you probably just wait (assuming the part is on order).  If they owned it during shipment, send it back.  Two tweeters going out during shipment????  Helloooooooo! 

I have bought 2 pre amps on audiogon...know what happened? I had to eat the buy....So now have to preamps which are now it the boxes they came in...Buyer Beware....you may end up with a Big Door Stopped....

One of the original and as far as I am concerned continued reasons for the Audiogon Forums existing is to become acquainted with persons through their posting so when you buy or sell items you have a good feeling you are dealing with upright individuals.

I do believe there are scammers here who know how to invent and post good reviews and feedback under their usernames.

Several things and excuse me if they’ve been mentioned - impossible to read all the comments.  Why would the manufacturer take ones word that tweeters are bad and send replacements without an authorized tech diagnosing them?  If the tweeters are bad then something caused that either from something wrong in the crossover or while being (over) driven, etc. - not likely that happened during shipping so that would concern me.  Say something is wrong in the circuitry and you replace the tweeters and they blow again - doubtful that would be covered by B&W.  Consider having an authorized warranty center look at them before installing new drivers.  I’m not sure why you didn’t do that earlier since you have been under the impression they are under warranty.  

Having them checked out prior to installing the tweeters is a good idea. It’s not worth taking the chance. Another person suggested this also.

Hi again, the poster above is right.  You would hate to put the new tweets in and have them blow because of something else not working correctly within the speaker. 

Before installing the new $1K each tweeters, I would take the blown tweeters out and temporarily attach a spare cheap speaker for just a minute to ensure that no damaging voltage/other is happening.

Do your speakers have any fuses to consider?

Can’t believe some of the comments. Seller advertised working speakers. You received non-working speakers. I’m skeptical like many others that shipping caused both tweeters to fail. But it doesn’t matter, shipping damage is the seller’s problem, not yours. You paid to receive working speakers, as advertised.
 

Seller should have paid for return shipping, ordered new tweeters, had them installed himself, and put the speakers up for sale again, with the ad stating tweeters had been replaced.
 

By offering only to pay for new tweeters, the seller did not take into consideration your extended wait time to receive new tweeters, the possibility that more extensive repairs are needed if the new tweeters fail, and your time and effort to do the repairs yourself. For all that hassle, you are owed a partial refund. So, seller should have give you two options - return broken speakers for a full refund or a negotiated partial refund for your time, effort and risk in taking on the repair of the speakers yourself.
 

If I were you, I would be pissed and pursue an acceptable remedy, because as things stand the seller has ripped you off. 

 “These speakers were purchased from my local dealer new in May 2020.  They are in perfect condition and are an amazing pair of speakers.  I decided to upgrade them to the store's demo pair of 802's.  The store personnel delivered and set them up originally, and they returned to box them back up for resale”.

This sounds to me like a guilty seller providing an "excuse" prior to the sale. Maybe I am just suspicious, but it  paints a picture that is meant to preclude the complaint he knew would follow the sale.

I would file a complaint immediately and demand a refund with interest.

I asked to return them for refund several times. His last response was:

I'm not willing to do anything else.   I do not feel responsible for the backorder of parts.  You are free to purchase tweeters on your own and I'll still swap the other ones which you can resell later

@kirbymydog 

Hoping for a positive outcome for you. You have been too nice, too understanding and too flexible and by doing so, it ran out the clock for your remedies. The seller was and is behaving inappropriately in this transaction. You should only purchase in the future from nice people like yourself. You may miss a deal here or there but you won't have to erode/suspend your character or who you are in the process. Best wishes.

Did he tell you they were covered by manufacturer's warranty? You can't expect him to be involved if some problem should arise in the future within the warranty period.

Some manufacturers only honor the warranty for the initial purchaser. They work with their dealers to resolve the problem. IMHO if something is DOA, you get a full refund and seller pays shipping both ways. Warranty or not. 

Personally, I would not buy something at this price level without some dealer involvement, even if he is selling it on consignment for someone, you have an assurance that everything is in working order. It's worth the extra 20% for the peace of mind. 

Better yet, if possible, buy things that are within driving distance so you can check them out and drive them home yourself. Also avoid any possible shipping damage.

Well said, ghasley.  +1 

We have been selling new and used audio for over 4 decades and have seen speaker drivers damaged in shipment more than we can count. If we put you in a crate and shipped you across the country in a non cushioned tractor trailer and the whole time slamming around the inside of the trailer how do you think you would fare? Even new speakers are not immune to driver damage from shipping no matter what their cost. In this case it appears that a salesman at a B&W dealership was just doing a customer a favor and selling his speakers that were under warranty for him, that is not unusual since most people do not possess the knowledge and skills to undertake such a task. Their may have been a chance the  speakers were never checked prior to being boxed up by the dealership and were assumed to be in perfect working order and the sales person was innocent of the fact that the tweeters were bad. We never take anyones word on the condition of their equipment, we check everything before we buy or trade When faced with losing thousand of dollars many people are less than honest about what they are selling. It is amazing how many times we hear " I did not know it was bad" right after the half hour speech on how great it sounded last night and what perfect condition it is in. If you have any kind of knowledge at all about the audio industry right now you would know that 6 months for parts or service is not unusual, the OP should be elated he did not have to wait longer. If you have any knowledge at all about B&W diamond tweeters you would know they are very fragile and have been known to break often ( yes even in transport) Why do you think they are out of stock so often? We normally do not stock parts, but when it comes to B&W we stock pile their parts because they are so hard or near impossible to come by most of the time. In this case the seller should have supplied the buyer with new tweeters (yes they are available through other avenues than B&W) and paid for them to be installed professionally and sold the other tweeters when they came in or we would have paid for return shipping and given the buyer a full refund so we could do a first hand investigation on what caused the damage to the tweeters and checked to see what other damage may have occurred. We have seen many circuit boards in crossovers crack during transport which can cause very serious damage and expensive repairs if not corrected.

@arrowheadrss ok fine. Speakers sometimes break in transit. One or both....ok. Tweeters only....ok

Its all white noise. The seller owed @kirbymydog working speakers delivered to him in working order. They didnt partner up and share the repsonsibility of delivery, the seller contracted for the delivery and it is the sellers responsibility to ensure they get there operable. If he didnt accept that responsibility solely, he could have sold them as is where is and had the buyer arrange for shipping.

This conversation has some legs! There's a few dots to connect here, most have been put forth across three pages. It's not too difficult to locate the seller by his listing and to confirm what has been stated, that he was working for the only top audio outfit in his listed area authorized for B&W. Go to their website and there is his picture. Everything seems to be appropriate and reasonable until one reads the sale listing... it's awkward and misleading to me, given now known employee status. Fine, he's oblique in his role, not the original owner, his choice to portray. Let's presume the tweeters were damaged in shipping, benefit of the doubt. It can happen but lets also be real, how do all speakers travel through the supply chain, whats the actual failure rate due to shipping damage? Fragile speakers costing thousands of dollars are packed carelessly? Since the seller, being in the business would surely know of the fragility and difficulty of replacement, why wasn't better care taken? Accident waiting or already happened?? Kirbymydog has been very patient and trusting, considerate, it was his decision to accept the warranty offer, believing that it was valid. Let's hope that the seller eventually comes through as promised, AND makes some kind of restitution for all of the delays imposed, frustrations from repeated extensions to delivery, wasted time. The seller surely now knows he failed to deliver in a timely fashion, became uncooperative and its out now in the courts of public opinion here. He has had an invitation to speak to this, where is he? Not a good way to do business, poor customer service. Would any of us choose to be treated this way?

"I'm not willing to do anything else."

given  that he practically just made your life very difficult, and did close to nothing so far, he is in conman territory now. I wouldn't be surprised if he used your money to fix a previous deal gone bad

my response to what you indicated above as "His last response", would be something along the lines of ...

if you want to be a d**k about it then I believe I'll get in touch with your boss's boss's Boss (is that in the UK?) and see what he thinks we should do about it. And in case you can't tell, I'm definitely not f**king around. You don't like the nice guy approach? OK.

I would prefer for it to be friendly, but if you're not going to work with me here ... when your buddies over at corporate B&W receive a link to this thread where all of these guys can also see how I've been wronged by you. 

I'm thinking I may end up with a little sweeter deal than the one I'm currently facing, but I'm also pretty sure it's gonna come at your own expense. The way you're handling this, at the very minimum is dragging their brand thru the mud. They would never hear of this kind of service. And you're in sales? Dude.

Something about this whole deal was a tad shady from the beginning. It's starting to make a little more sense now. I think it looks like you were trying to offload a product that was at the very least, mis-represented ... when a piece of equipment is DOA then it does not! work as you advertised. Not sure how B&W corporate office is gonna look at it, but I bet they're not gonna appreciate that the deal is literally going down out of the back door of one of their stores.

I do know that I want my money back and you're going to pay return shipping costs or I'm gonna decide whether I want to pick up the phone and start trying to figure out who I'm gonna call or if I'd rather put the whole thing in an email and include a link to this thread. You have 24 hours to respond.

I'm pretty sure you can say it a little more concisely, but yeah I'd be a little more clear with him about your intention, and let him make the call whether you're gonna do it the hard way or the easy way.

Or, take Tubebuffer up on his offer to mediate your case on our public platform.

The OP says the issue is settled, so why all the unneeded opinions and bluster? Let it go, and if he has further problems I'm sure that he'll let us know.

Good discourse? ... and like somebody else mentioned ... to gain perspective from all the different viewpoints on display. 

Why do you have to cop such an attitude? It's guys like you that cause some people to not want to be a part of the interaction here. 

Some of the judgmental stuff that's said around here comes off as being mean spirited. We're all entitled to our opinions and gaining different perspective on how to handle a deal that's gone bad is potentially helpful to someone who's yet to make a deal. 

I spent 25 years going to AA meetings to learn how to not drink, and it always amazed me how such a large group of such dysfunctional people could experience such long term success as a group, and as an organization, for such a long period of time. 

They've done it b/c of what's called The 12 Traditions, which is a set of Principles laid out sort of as the ground rules, of operation. The very last words of the last tradition reads: "ever reminding us to place principles before personalities".

Just think if we did that around here how much of the mean spirited stuff wouldn't happen. I'm referring directly to the smarta** comments people make.

Guess it would be asking too much to just be nice.

roxy54 chill dude