Great job on the blog! First rate and thank you for posting. |
Rebbi, I have a tip for you if you are willing to be a tad unconventional. This mod will cost you nothing, but will have a very positive impact on the sound of your amp and system. Run the output tranny wires outside the chassis and use the binding posts as clamps only. Simply tin the the bare wire and clamp your spade up against the the tinned bare wire. All binding posts, regardless of price and quality, degrade sound pretty substantially. I have done the A/B comparisons and no contest.
You can simply drill small holes next to the binding posts for each wire. You may not need to if you can go out another way. Perhaps the bottom? If you drill holes just place some little rubber grommets to avoid the rough metal rubbing on the wire's coating.
You can be creative and execute this mod in a way to assure the wires will never short by touching each other. It is worth the planning and thought. With a little effort and creativity you will lift the performance of your system as much, if not more, than a tube, wire, or cap upgrade.
Look at my virtual system and see how I did this on my external crossover.
We DIY guys can be bold! |
I forgot to mention again......your the man! I so enjoy looking through and reading your blog. You have me wanting to buy an ANote kit. I look forward to hearing your impressions of the sound. |
Play it on Salvation Army $10 speakers first. I always test on throw away speakers first as an FYI. |
Sorry, meant to type gorgeous. I would rather speak than type...Ugh! |
I have been reading the responses to your amp and speaker combo on another thread Rebbi. First off, great job on the build as I know how much work it is! Well done.
I am still building and modifying my preamp and amps today. Just added a battery powered filament supply for my preamp and it was a great deal of fun.
My opinion will differ from others you have seen, but that is a good thing as you want all perspectives. I think the speaker is the most important component and you should build your system around it starting with the amp first. The amp/speaker synergy is the first one to consider. If you love your speakers, and they give you the sound you like, then build around them. Your freshly built amp is not the ideal match. It may be on vocals and jazz, but when your musical appetite changes and you want some dynamically challenging classical music or whatever, the SET amp simply cannot deliver with your speakers. The type of music one plays is hugely important.....more so than the speaker's efficiency in many cases.
You must decide first if you love your speakers and build around them first. You don't build a system around an amp...or one should not do that IMHO. Speakers impact the sound more than any other component. I also believe the source component and preamp are MORE important than the amp assuming the amp's quality meets a minimum hurdle of synergy and sound quality.
I have owned, built, and modified more tube amps than I can share here. Yes, 2a3 SET, 45 SET, 300B SET, OLT's, push/pull, monster SS, Class D...Ok, you get the picture.
You can achieve the same kind of immediacy, resolve, tone etc...that you are now enjoying with another amp that is not SET. You can. Your Audionote contact has told you the same about an EL34 KIT amp and he is absolutley right. Your speakers will come alive even more than they do with your 8 watt amp. It is indeed possible. It must be the right amp, right design, right parts and it can happen.
I am getting a SET like sound on my 90db 8 ohm speakers with push/pull homemade amps and even SS amps that are very special. The key here the system's sound. Everything ahead of the speaker helps deliver a "SET" type of sound. Everything. The right preamp, amp, and source all work together to deliver the final sonic signature. Don't become too amp focused or you will miss the woods for the trees.
This hobby is all about slight trade offs. You will gain many nice things keeping your current speakers and going to a more powerful amp. Gaining many things the SET amp will never do in your system. You will be able to match most, but perhaps not all, of the intimacy and directness of your SET amp. The end result will still be very pleasing and a substantial upgrade.
I have been able to achieve all the intimacy and directness of a SET in my system without having to "settle" for 8 watts. It is possible. I know the SET sound as I have owned plenty of great SET amps. I loved what they (SET) did on my already beautiful sounding jazz and vocal albums/CD's. Oh my. However, I had the same experience as you on more dynamically infused music. The SET amp just fell short. Understand, your sound is suffering well before you hear distortion or clipping. The lack of dynamic headroom is constricting the music's dynamics well before the clipping stage.
Bottom line is this. Do you love your speakers? Will they reveal what any upgraded component delivers? if so, keep them and change your amp.
Shopping for a new speaker can be a most fustrating experience as finding one that suits your tastes is hard, hard work. The speaker IS the main source of your systems sound personality and the amp while important, falls far behind.
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The right SS amp in the right total system can indeed sound very much
like a good SET amp system. It it the complete combination. The amp is but
one piece.
I love tube amps of all types and find the great ones deliver sound that is
beautiful and "SET" like regardless of wether they are or are not
SET or DHT amps. In fact, I would argue the sound variance is just as wide
between the multitude of DHT SET amps out there.
Many designs and combinations of designs with carefully matched gear
can deliver that engaging SET type sound. This can be learned by
experience and trying lots of gear. No shortcuts. Some of us have been
there and learned that.
I am confident Rebbi can indeed experience the same type of sound he is
now enjoying with a well chosen more powerful amp and perhaps preamp. |
Mapman, yes indeed Rebbi now has a deeper connection to this amp! |
Rebbi has commented on other threads that the amp clips and does not have enough power on certain kinds of music. Thus my comments.
Charles, understand and thanks for the comments.
My experience confirms that different tube circuits can indeed deliver that SET sound in the context of a total system. |
Rebbi, I concur with your comment that "I will never buy another piece of electronics". I will not except for a digital front end. I can build the rest for far less money and with much better sound. Plus I love building and learning.
I am spending far more time on DIY forums as compared to this site and other sites like it. I just find DIY so interesting. |
Jetrexpro and Charles, while your comments are certainly true about shopping for another speaker, I am at a total loss as to why both of you would suggest this is the best path? Both of you are very knowledgeable and rightly respected here on the Gon. The list of reasons to amp shop, not speaker shop is long and persuasive.
- The speaker is the most important component in a system and impacts the tone and personally of the system FAR more than the amp.
- The speaker is far more difficult to shop for and find one that suits your preference. Finding the right speaker is a chore and will take more effort.
- The speaker is a much more difficult and hassle prone item to sell. It is heavy, hard to ship, expensive to ship, prone to damage etc...
- The speaker is usually the more expensive item to buy and sell as compared to the amp.
Rebbi can build another amp and AN has already said they will work with him on another amp.
If both of you are suggesting to keep the amp because of some emotional attachment to it due to the building process, then so be it. I think that line of thinking will lead to many more problems down the road with assembling the system around another set of speakers.
Rebbi if you enjoy the building process, then build another amp and have fun! In the end your ears will be even more pleased and you will have gained additional knowledge and experience. Let me suggest that while this first build of yours delivered great sound, you can certainly do as good or better on your next build. Additionally you will have an amp better suited for your speaker. Great sound, the kind you are now hearing, is absolutely available in a PP or parallel single ended tube amp. |
Rebbi your last post says it all. The amp should be able to play all the kinds of music that YOU want to enjoy on a given day. Wether the speaker or amp changes, in the end, a better match is needed.
I recall running my Coincident speakers with three different SET amps and on many evenings the music was so enjoyable, just as you mentioned. However, over a period of months it became obvious that the amps were just plain running out of gas on more occasions than I originally thought.
The question is not about wether a DHT 300b amp sounds better or best compared to all other tube amp designs. That is not even a real question as a dozen 300b amps sound as different from each other as a dozen PP amps sound from the same dozen 300b amps. The real question is wether the system with your current speakers and a new tube amp will sound better than your current amp with new speakers. The comparison is at the total system level......not the amp alone.
I owned a very expensive Canary 300b paralell single ended set of amps. They put out 50 watts per channel, but did not sound as good as a solid state integrated in my total system. By good I mean all the SET type SQ attributes we all enjoy. How is this possible? Well easy. The design of the integrated was pure magic and the world offers a vast array of magical gear that we can never begin to consume. It is a great big audio world out there with many surprises and Magic awaiting! Certain 300b amps are but one. |
Tomorrow's 300 tube? Oh my!
http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2015/01/29/korg-noritake-introduce-futuristic-nutube-vacuum-tubes/ |
Correction, my Canary CA339 amps were parallel push/pull. |
It's not about music being loud. Distortion always seems louder due to noise. The issue is the contraction and constriction of dynamics that come way before clipping. My 97db efficient, 12 ohm Coincident speakers played loud enough for me, but not well enough over a period of time. Gorgous music to be sure, but in the end the music was limited to jazz and vocals.
It took time for me to notice this and more importantly, other more powerful amps made that easily apparent. You can get loud in your little room, but not the kind of expansive, at ease, fully dynamic sound that is possible with a better suited amp. Sure, you get beauty and tone with the right kinds of music, but not the full experience with many kinds of music.
The right speaker for the amp will also work, but it also has to be the right speaker for Rebbi. It will be interesting to see where he lands. More than one way to accomplish a bit more flexibility in his system. All good points thus far. |
Mikirob, great post and it could be these Tektons would be perfect. They are certainly affordable. Perhaps they are worth a trial. |
It's not about music being loud. Distortion always seems louder due to noise. The issue is the contraction and constriction of dynamics that come way before clipping. My 97db efficient, 12 ohm Coincident speakers played loud enough for me, but not well enough over a period of time. Gorgous music to be sure, but in the end the music was limited to jazz and vocals.
It took time for me to notice this and more importantly, other more powerful amps made that easily apparent. You can get loud in your little room, but not the kind of expansive, at ease, fully dynamic sound that is possible with a better suited amp. Sure, you get beauty and tone with the right kinds of music, but not the full experience with many kinds of music.
The right speaker for the amp will also work, but it also has to be the right speaker for Rebbi. It will be interesting to see where he lands. More than one way to accomplish a bit more flexibility in his system. All good points thus far. |
Mapman, I rarely listen to music above 78-84 db on my 90db efficient 8 ohm speakers. I am driving them with two sets of Monoblock amps. I swap them out from time to time. The first set is a homemade tube PP set that sound marvelous. But, my main set are 300 watt SS amps and one could say that is complete overkill in my modest sized room at my low listening levels.
I have found that the sense of ease and flow is tremendous with the amplifiers barely breaking a sweat. Paired with my tricked out TRL Dude tubed preamp and Romulus tubed CD player I am getting that SET like sound. I have the latest version of the Trl Samson amps with some nice new improvements.
The amps are very open and deliver see through transparency and in the end just reveal the strengths of my pre and CD player. My speakers are uber musical and the total system just delivers that SET like sound that is intoxicating without SET limitations.
I will acknowledge it has taken some effort and learnings to get to this point.
Many things have helped such as.....
- using great solid core silver wire throughout the system
- speaker placement, speaker placement, speaker placement
- room treatment.......very important
- tricking out my preamp removing all electrolytic caps in the power supply, battery powered filament heaters and a few other things
- the right speaker with a simple crossover network
All these things do indeed deliver a SET like sound that is immediate, intimate and all together lovely, lively and engaging.
I am probably using 1/10 of the power available in my amps! Ha! But it works very well indeed. |
A system moves one.....a complete system. No one piece of gear can move someone as it makes no sound on its own:) I know this is profound, but hey.
It is quality not quantity that is most important. When you can have both you have massive quality or something like that. |
GSM, why the comment? If you are not the kind of person who wants to build, learn, test, fiix and understand your gear, then no you would never do this regardless of the outcome. Testing and trouble shooting gear is part of the process of learning and DIY. Cannot separate it. It comes with the turf as they say. |
Rebbi I am impressed with your patience and dedication to the understanding and building of your amp. I have had to trouble shoot several of my projects of late and was forced to learn. One was particularly difficult to sort out, but I learned so much. You will conquer this gremlin and along the way learn a great deal about tube amps. Forge on you brave and capable tube amp pioneer! |
Jet, you are so right and I so do that! Let me share with you my most recent find for the power supply of tube amps and preamps. I have used the large computer grade electrolytics and recently tried the oil types from GE & ASC. I like the oil types and have mixed them with Mundorf MLytics when more capacitance is needed.
However, nothing prepared me for the sonic breakthrough that resulted when I placed 100% Clarity TC film caps in my Preamp. Oh my. Go look at Parts Connextion and see the TC 600 series of film power supply caps. With no electrolytics in my preamp and these killer TC caps things really opened up and the life like sound of voice and instrument is SOTA.
They are large and you need room under the hood so some gear won't accommodate them unfortunately. TC caps come in 600vdc values with up to 500uf of capacitance. They simply sound spectacular. Since my preamp is tube voltage regulated, and I cannot overstate the importance of tube regulation done right, I was not sure how much these TC film caps would help over the computer grade electrolytics. The bottom line is they are really a sonic joy.
These are the sorts of improvements only DIY initiatives and curiosity will uncover. Since starting my DIY journey I am happy to say the sonic gains in my system are unprecedented and I have learned so much.
Lots of great gear out there designed by brilliant folks and companies. They can often times be brought to the next level with DIY initiative and passion. |
Very happy for you Rebbi! |
Al and others. I read the post by Ralph and must share an experience I had just about one month ago. I have a newly purchased 10 watt 845 SET amp that sounded good with a particular power cord I had on the amp. However, I was not prepared for what I heard when an audio friend hooked up a Kimber Palladain PK10 power cord to this same amp. It absolutely transformed this amp from a good amp to a dream amp. I have no doubt the amp is 30 percent more powerful with this cord compared to the other cord I was using. Dynamics improved what seemed to be exponentially. Does this mean the Kimber cord is outrageously good? Or can it also mean the other cord was holding the amp back just as Ralph points out. I will start measuring the effect Ralph points out with my power cords! Most interesting.
I purchased two used Kimber Palladian cords the very next day right here on the Gon. I put the second one on my transport. It also transformed the transport. Power cables are VERY important. Trial a couple and you will be amazed at what can be with the right cord. |
