Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

Getting back to normal, I have some big upcoming news to share: the owner of a SME 30 has agreed to a Spin-Off against my Bauhaus Lenco (arranged by a friend who is currently borrowing it)!! Not threatened, he is only interested in sound quality and curious, and so it will happen in the near future. Watch this space.

I'm currently working on a Reinderspeter top-plate/CLD Giant plinth, and will report on THAT as soon as it's done too. Boy, lots of work ahead, and added to that the slate plinth. I'd better hire someone ;-).

I've recently scored a Leak Stereo 20 amplifier, considered the best Leak ever made and currently being restored, and I'll be matching it to, of course, my prized Klipsch Heresies MKIs (metal horns). Might even update the matching Leak Point One preamp, considered crap, but I've heard THAT before ;-). Also scored a pair of Coral Beta-8 full-range drivers, considered about the best vintage Japanese full-range drivers ever made. Beautiful drivers with cast baskets finished in pebbly coral paint and incredible chromed magnets, will be great to match these as well to my Leak. Will see what the full-range/high-sensitivity thing is all about. A very busy Spring/Summer ahead, and hopefully another voyage on the horizon as well, what I live for!!

Anyway, have fun all, keep reporting in your idler experiences!!

Nice score on the Leak Stereo 20, I had one a little while ago
and I just loved the sound. Something about EL-84's sounds very "right" to these ears. You do have to get them updated to sound correct though, so that's a good things you're doing that. That amp should be wonderful running your Klipsch's. That being said, I have to agree with what you heard about the Point One preamp. Those are o.k. if you like the "vintage" sound, but the preamps of today kick the snot out of them.

Good luck on the SME camparison, that's a heck of a table to put up against a big plinth Lenco.

Thanks for that Rf, I can't wait to try out the finished Leak, which is being completely revamped. Bought a quartet of matched JJ tubes as well from an instrument store, MUCH cheaper than the same thing from a high-end audioshop! Feelin' good about this project. Won't have time to update the preamp, thanks for the warning anyway, but has anyone tried to replace all the parts with high-tolerance parts to see how far it can go? Seems a shame to waste such a cute all-tube product (WITH tube phono stage!!).

In the meantime, I have to say the Lenco/MAS/Grado Woody/Sony 2000F/Dynaco ST-120/Klispch Heresy set-up is still sounding magical, just something here - gestalt, beauty, PRaT, excitement - is sooooo RIGHT. Only weakness is the bass (not horrible, just not stellar), the Klipsch somehow just not melding on this point with the sound-room (they were gangbusters in this sense in my last sound-room). But the rest is so right I just don't care for now. Hopefully the Leak will make them dance in this sense.

Demonstrated a Giant Lenco to a fellow with a 100-pound belt-drive (something exotic from France, lots of lead and acrylic, and a platter made up of three stacked glass platters with some sort of damping material in-between), who pronouced himself smitten and fascinated by the Idler Sound, which STILL, despite the size/weight/impressiveness of his belt-drive, blew him away with the bass and richness of the sound. Wants to hear more some day, and given he lives in Montreal, a terrific city with fantastic food and sexy women, I'll oblige ;-).

Back to my MAS/Grado/Dynaco/Klipsch magic!! Have fun all, Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler Wheel...and, FINALLY, Spring!!

'he lives in Montreal, a terrific city with fantastic food and sexy women,'
You can say that again John!!! Wow, I can't wait to hear about those Beta 8's.. I have been wanting a set of those for years!!! I am building some Saburo "spawn" horns with 6" Corals... Can't wait!! Guess I had better start looking for a flea amp....
I found out (unfortunately) that my all-slate Lenco will take some time to put together... The key to finding 'cheap' slate is to get 'offcuts' or leftovers from installations, My friend happened to have a spare piece that suited my purpose, hence the low price.. So my friend is keeping his eye open for suitable pieces.
I believe I will stick with what I have for now, and see how I feel when I finally find a 'Broken-In" DL 103 for sale!!! (Hint-Hint) sigh....

I haven't posted here in awhile but I wanted you to know Jean that Big Black is still spinning and sounding great. I for one am glad I stumbled onto this thread four years ago. The Lenco is what kicked off my interest in DIY electronics and now I build my own stuff. I have no desire to upgrade my TT and Jean, I'm still loving that arm!

The Idler Wheel Revolution continues to gain steam, new products being released at a steady pace! Consider the Teres rim-drive, and the VPI rim-drive, which as I understand it is actually a quasi-rim-drive like the Thorens TD-124, an idler driven by a belt. This gives only quasi-results, as the true idler force is mitigated by this over-caution approach (i.e. potential dynamics and transient response mitigated), originally (TD-124), and one assumes currently (VPI), due to the lingering perception that idler-wheel drives have inherent noise problems which obscures fine detail. No, these problems are part of the ongoing campaign against the Idler, both Direct Coupling to a high mass and careful restoration eliminates noise and exposes the true idler strengths in the areas of detail (stunning detail retrieval, and in an entirely matural presentation) and organization (the ability of the Idler Torque to keep the various musical strands easily separated, with the interrelationships clearly audible and magical).

Now Arthur Salvatore's website (news/upcoming section) features the following tasty tidbit, with at least a question mark next to the word "inherent", which means we are making some SERIOUS inroads against the usual anti-idler dogmas!: "Next, there may be a new turntable, coming out soon, with an advanced idler-drive system, that finally avoids the (inherent?) problems with these systems; mainly the higher sound-floor, which obscures subtle musical information. This could mean the best of both worlds (dynamic force combined with subtlety). The source of this turntable will prove surprising to many audiophiles. I'd spill the details now, but I'm sworn to secrecy, which should end soon."

Of course, all those who have actually tried a properly restored and set-up idler-wheel drive know that idlers excel in the retrieval of subtle information (micro-detail and imaging, etc.), and retrieve some - such as proper timing relationships, proper and full restoration of dynamics (incredible), and incredible transient response (ultra-fast, giving them ironically a more modern sound than belt-drives) - which seem to be beyond the abilities of belt-drives (at least those mere mortals can afford). The Uber Idlers advertised in Salavatore's website already exist: Lencos (which may after all be the best of them all due to the excellent torque/inertia balancing act); Garrards and EMTs, just to name three which can do all the amazing Idler tricks, and do it quietly, with the subtleties intact.

Thanks for the post Chad, I still have that Gray tonearm in my sights!! Just waiting for one to swim by ;-). And glad to hear that I scored such juicy drivers Harvey! Hope I find time to match the newly-restored Leak to newly-cabineted Corals! The Leak only has 12-15 watts per side, and delicate ones at that, this should suit the Corals just fine. In the meantime, it'll be the Klipsch Heresies.

I spoke with the Montreal fellow again very recently, and interestingly he focused not on detail, bass and SLAM (though he did comment on them), but is fascinated by the more subtle issue of gestalt/organic wholeness. Incredible that he fastened on this aspect of the Idler Experience (against a context of a 100-pound lead/acrylic/glass belt-drive). Of course, this aspect of information-retrieval indicates just how "right" the idler-wheel drive system is, and this particular aspect, which is a timing issue - along with the associated issues of transient response (keeping perfect speed in the face of the braking action of stylus force drag), dynamics (ditto) and bass (ditto) - is why I believe the idler-wheel drive system is the superior system for vinyl playback. These issues are where the musical POWER and MAGIC reside. The other audiophile obsessions - detail and imaging - are an inherent result of superior speed stability, along with the stabilizing and quieting effects of Direct Coupling to a high mass (black backgrounds), and simply add icing to the cake of the more important/visceral issues of SLAM, timing, gestalt, and so on.

Back later with some recent idler experiences, to wit the use of clamps!! Have fun all.

Hey Jean,

One thing I know about practically anything new mentioned on Salvatore's site, I wont be able to afford it :) I am glad we already own the uber table, HA!

Speaking of clamps, I have never been able to come to a conclusion about using a clamp on the Lenco. My latest clamp adventure is the old Sumiko crystal record weight - looks cool, has strobe markings, etc., but no cigar. Never the less, I have a piece of African black wood I plan to make into a simple weight. I realized something in regard to Lencos and clamps - all the ones I have tried have a soft substrate between the weight and the record label. Note that clamps like the new Harmonix clamp have an exotic wood substrate between the weight of the clamp and the record. I throw that out there for thought and comment.

Mike

Given that I hate, hate, hate clamps, I'm not real objective about this. I use a Boston Audio Mat I on my replinthed Lenco, which means there's precious little spindle length available above that mat. Bought a Souther "Clever" clamp for those rare dished LPs that tend to float a little on the Boston Audio, and it was just awful sounding. I'm now using a rubber washer from the hardware store that provides enough pressure at the spindle to hold the record in place, and that works fine.

As this and the last thread are mostly about preconceptions/Dogmas, I have to relate my recent clamp adventures while visiting various soundrooms including various of my 'tables (Garrards, Lencos). My own experience/experiments with clamps (I have several, ranging from one in metacrylate through lighter ones to a solid lead one by Maplenoll) and Lencos were uniformly disastrous, as I had related back in the days of the original thread, and I had forever turned my back on this particular "improvement". Visting one, I saw the fellow using a clamp and asked him if it helped. To this I received the "news" that clamps more securely coupled the record to the platter/record player to achieve an improvement, as if I had never heard of a clamp (this the result of The Clamp Dogma, in which a person steeped in it, hearing me ask about it, must assume I had never heard of a clamp or I would know it HAD to be an improvement). He didn't answer my question about whether or not it was an improvement, and tired, I let it be.

The next fellow had an extremely high-end system, and hearing my Lenco (Dynavector 507 MKII/Dyna 17D MKIII) sounding so pedestrian (I was actually falling asleep in the listening chair), I said, fed up, "Let's do a before and after listening test!" He agreed, we played one track, and then played it again sans clamp. WHAT a difference, the Lenco POWER returned in all its Mightiness, with incredible dynamic spread (from softest to most SLAMMING) and bass (DEEP and powerful), the difference amounting to the difference between an eagle with pinned wings to an eagle soaring among the mountain peaks, the Lenco was now unfettered and ALIVE. The music became entrancing and irresistable with that familiar Amazon in Full Flood sense of limitless untapped fluid power in reserve, and the fellow was delighted and behaved as if he received a whole new high-end system! He had been listening to the Lenco (fettered) for weeks, due to his unexamined assumption (that clamps automatically improved the sound). I wonder how many fellows are listening to crippled 'tables (heavily or lightly modded without first hearing the Lenco "au naturel") due to unquestioning attitudes?

The experiment with the ceramic ball bearing shows just how sensitive the Lenco is to any "interference", the Lenco being evidently a SERIOUS case of the whole being MUCH greater than the sum of its parts. I now understand that this is due to a series of "accidents" which focuses in on a perfect balance of torque (a lot but not too much via its heavy 1800-RPM motor and delicate - as opposed to rim-drives - idler-wheel coupling) vs inertia (just right). In my experience as well, the Lenco seems immune to power conditioning - I've heard it in a few systems with some pretty exotic waveform regenerators - though usually not hampered (it just ignores them). Lenco advertising claimed a no more than 1% deviation from "perfect" for up to a 13% fluctuation in voltages!

In fact, being the sum of a variety of parts with astonishing results, the Mighty Lenco is the 'table the Supreme Being designed and listens to ;-), a happy accident of a variety of accidental parts which amounts to a near-supernatural end result, when properly restored and replinthed. I am now very curious to see what the Reinderspeerter top-plate brings to the party, as it leaves the Lenco parts untouched, and adresses the one "weakness" (the relatively flimsy top-plate, hleped along by glass reinforcement and Direct Coupling).

Now, systems being a case of various synergies and organic balanced ecologies (when successful), it is possible that clamps might help in some cases, and power conditioning in others, but I advise all to actually listen to the effect of any modifications before making any assumptions, as the Lenco is itself a balanced ecology (and with no context, how does one know that one's modification hasn't in fact killed the goose that lays the Golden Egg of Audio Bliss, and end up with something sterile and thin?)! In designing your various "Super Lencos" as well as simple tweaks (like clamps), always compare to an "unfettered" Lenco (i.e. with minimal intrusive mods).

Anyway, have fun all, and never stop questioning!! Now, I'll get back to my latest successful venture in synergies! More audio adventures to relate in the near-future of course.

A Lenco lover who purchased one of my tables (replaced a Nottingham Spacedeck and Well Tempered), had a clamp custom built out of some strange, mysterious, expensive material.
I was against the idea. Just think of all the LPs out there for all that money?
After getting his wonder clamp and A/B comparisons, the clamp was never used again. Seemed to suck the dynamics out of the air. Toe stopped tapping. Had to call the toe truck.
Lenco no like clamp!
Lenco like records!!
Lenco like MUSIC!!!

I've been using my Sota Reflex clamp with my Giant direct-coupled Lenco. But honestly, I don't hear any difference with it vs without it, for better or for worse. I don't activate the clamp mechanism; I just let the clamp ride on the spindle. I think that clamping the record to the platter via the spindle might well couple unwanted vibration/noise from the bearing/spindle interface into the record surface. I do however hear an improvement with my Walker Audio Precision Motor controller providing the AC for the Lenco motor vs without it. Sorry, but I do. There is a big difference in relation to the phase setting on the Walker; if the phase is not set correctly, then the PMC does nothing worthwhile. Perhaps that's why there could be disagreement regarding the beneficial effects of such a device.

Hi Lew, I don't doubt that in some systems these devices, and even clamps, might work positively, given the incredible complexity of system ecologies (getting it right - musical magic as well as all the audiophile goodies - is like finding a needle in a haystack), as I wrote. I am just cautioning against unexamined assumptions: i.e. compare/test before assuming/accepting. Phase could very well be the saving difference of these devices, this is what Rega does to improve their motors, and it could well reduce motor vibrations. Next step, find a power conditioner that does phase so I can test this aspect out!! As to the clamp, why use it at all if it makes no difference, and you aren't using it to actually clamp? The Lenco spindle is slightly oversized, and achieves thusly what it normally takes a clamp to do, hold the record in place with no slippage. Another clever innovation by the brilliant Dr. Lenco, who was either the Leonardo Da Vinci of the record player world, or just incredibly lucky!

Speaking of synergies and ecologies, I am testing out a recent-but-vintage Dolan PM-1 preamplifier, famous about 15 years ago for it's phono stage (very adjustable, and on the front panel!). In my system as it stood it lost out in terms of detail and transparency to my vintage Sony 2000F, but it restored the bass of my Klipsches! I let it cook a couple of days, then I thought: what if I matched it up to my vintage Citation 12 Deluxe (dual mono) and the Yamaha NS-690s? Bingo-Presto Reference/monitor quality detail and separation, with bass and incredible imaging, AND musical!! It's fun to have an arsenal of amps, preamps and speakers to play mix 'n match and so make it easier to find working /combination ecologies!! Successful ecologies are more important than the quality of individual high-end items, which mismatched can lead to musically-disastrous results. But still, I am waiting for my fully-restored Leak (just spray-painted the new filter caps gold to match the chassis) to run my Klipsches. And I may have scored yet another vintage high-sensitivity speaker: a pair of Electro-Voice driver/speakers. It never ends! It sounds like I change systems like others change socks, but once I achieve that Ultimate System (and by this I don't mean the ultimate audiophile system but one which can achieve the Kundalini Effect of actual shivers and hair-raising, which I've achieved two or three times), my system stabilizes for months and sometimes years until I am forced to move (due to my Gypsy nature).

I'm currently testing out an electronic speed controller for the Lenco, courtesy of Sander who loaned me his. So far, at 33 rpm anyway, it has no negative effect on the Lenco's sound. But further testing ahead, both for 33 and for 45. Have fun all!

Don't really know why I continue to use the clamp (as a record weight, really). Probably it has something to do with a deep-seated insecurity, perhaps some fear that if not weighted down, the LP will rise from the platter like a flying saucer. I am going to try to go cold turkey on it. The "speed controller" you are trying out - is it an AC synthesizer type? If so, does it have phase adjustment? If not, try flipping the wall plug; you may find that one orientation of the plug sounds better than the other.

Hi Lew, I hope yout records haven't flown off into space since you removed the clamp/weight!! I have tried all sorts of electrical tricks with the Lenco motors so far over the years and have found no difference. I'll wait for a motor controller with phase adjustments, simply flipping the plug results in no difference to my ear. The Speed Controller I am playing with doesn't have these adjustents handy anyway, I'll propose it to Sander.

On the Lenco adventure front, I brought over my Demo Lenco (Giant Glass-Reinforced Direct Coupled standard L75) back to the fellow living in Montreal on a sunny "summer" day (22C and ah the beauty of the women and the food!!!), he of the 100-pound acrylic/lead/glass French belt-drive, and I thought I would have to fight him to get the Lenco out of there! He was grinning from ear to ear to hear Harry Belafonte Live at Carnegie Hall (one of the TAS must-have reference LPs), it is SO great to see a Music Lover (first) and audiophile (second), simply playing discs with musical presentation foremost in his mind (all the other LPs he played were just ordinary pressings, Deutsch Grammophone, CBS and so on). This is the fellow who was obssessing over the gestalt the Lenco achieved, and not the usual qualities of detail and slam (though he was delighted with these too). He's asked for one and wants to tool around Montreal showing it off to others in their systems, so the Idler Revolution is poised to sweep Montreal too!

I stopped by another audiophile's place who was curious (a Blue Circle/Monitor Audio system), and he found the Lenco to have vastly better bass, realism and even detail than his Audiomeca Mephisto CD player, and he has asked as well for a second helping, to be arranged in the future.

On my Personal Audio Journey, I have found THE Speakers of my Lifetime, in the form of a pair of antique-looking Electro-Voice speakers in relatively enormous cabinets (about half the size of a fridge, and with filigree wooden grills with arches looking like a Turkish bath-house or wooden cathedral). They are made up of a pair of alnico-magnetted 12" dual concentric drivers, augmented by a pair of roughly 18"-long horn-loaded Electro-Voice tweeters, with an Electro-Voice X-8 crossover, looking very impressive in a square power-transformer-sized potted case. WHAT sound, I have NEVER heard bass like this, not from subwoofers or from extremely high-end systems with woofer towers, I don't know how it is done! Of course, it is very high sensitivity, and it has those fab alnico magnets (reputedly anyway, will have to do more research). The PRESENCE was astounding, only being beaten with the actual instruments by the actual musicians could beat it, I have NEVER heard anything like it! The PRaT was Reference quality, the SLAM unbelievable, but the quality of the bass, the extreme detail, definition and speed, and the reach and POWER was simply unbelievable, in all these senses well above what I have ever heard, and by a HUGE margin. The midrange, highs, lows were all stunning, detail could have been better, in some ways more detailed than what I have heard (hearing some things I have never heard), in others less (not hearing some things clearly which were clearer in other systems), but I believe rewiring and careful reassembly will improve this aspect. All this played via a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco (this the secret of the bass, as only an idler can retrieve this sort of bass information and POWER) mounted with a Grado PLatinum on a MAS 282 tonearm, played via a Sony TAE-5450 preamp, and through budget ASL Wave 20 monoblocks, cheapies, still can't understand how that BASS emerged from this. All this shows that bass is not a tube weakness (relative to solid state), but instead that tubes require the proper speakers to show just how good their bass is (i.e. vintage and not modern designs)! The build quality of the Electro-Voice drivers has to be seen to be believed, the "legs" of the woofer basket are 1" cross-sectional castings! I'll take photos of the drivers and place them next to modern high-end drivers to show/reveal the concept of "Progress".

Of course, all these astounding sonic and musical qualities were there to be heard due to the presence of the source, the Mighty Lenco. Thinking about progress, I pondered the fact that this was a Fifties/Sixties high-end system: large Electro-Voice speakers (making the giant-screen TV in the room look suddenly much less large and cheapish/toyish) with tubes, and backed-up by an idler-wheel drive. The PRESENCE was SO FAR above what I have ever heard from ANY system it was laughable (not to mention that supernatural bass), we have given up a tremendous amount in the search for "information", i.e. controlled detail, digital-inspired "neutrality" which is in fact music stripped of music to end up being sound. Add to that the move to tiny slim cabinets with tiny woofers: speakers get smaller and smaller in the search for domestic harmony - unobtrusiveness - while TV screeens get larger and larger, showing that the search for domestic harmony has nothing to do with unobtrusiveness but instead simple arbitrary fashion, as the TVs are anything but unobtrusive these days! This vintage system (admittedly with the idler-problems stripped away and the Idler Potential realized, which it wasn't back in the day) was like being immersed in MASSIVE tidal waves of music, washing endlessly with endless power over the listeners. Almost too much, sensory overload!!! A guy could get addicted to this :-). WARNING, this could lead to the end of marriages and family life, exposure will have to be restricted and controlled.

Anyway, though I have found the speakers I want to marry ;-), I'm not out of the woods yet, as I haven't the sound-room needed to set them up, NO WAY they can be assimilated into apartment living (I'd be evicted after the first night of listening), and not where I currently am either. So it looks like I'll have to settle down, abandon my Gypsy ways (after my next trip ;-)) and buy a house (with a BIG soundroom)!

Anyway, working on that Lenco vs SME 30 showdown, I'll take this challenge seriously enough to take over the best I currently have, rather than my Bauhaus Lenco I'll bring my own Reference Ultra Lenco (almost too large and heavy to even consider carrying, but Mass is Class) with JMW or RS-A1 tonearm, and appropriate cartridge. In the meantime, have fun all, I'll be listening to those Electro-Voice speakers at my buddy's place later this week (where they currently reside), I can't wait!!! Have fun all!

Those great speakers of the 50s have never gone out of fashion for some and are now in a mini-Renaissance of sorts, as more and more folks tire of modern, constricted, and dead sounding "hi-fi" speakers that need 250W of transistor power to make them move at all, because they generally present a very low input impedance which is anathema to any good tube amp, in addition to being ridiculously inefficient. Other good bets (besides Electro-Voice) are Altec Lansing, early JBL, Bogen, Klipsch. I plan to give one of these a try myself in a second all DIY system.

Recently came across a pair of orphaned Electro-Voice EVS-16Bs - technically a bookshelf speaker from the early 1960s, but with a full cone 12" woofer, they'd easily pass as floor standers. After refoaming, rewiring and recapping, these sweet things have easily supplanted by workbench Rectilinears. Tremendously clear two-octave midrange comes out of the 5" Danish made mid-range cones. I believe the tweeters are also Danish. The Michigan made woofer is a pleasure, ready to thump when called upon.
The crossover is geared a little to the bright side, but not unpleasantly so.

On the idler front, my first summer overhaul is in progress - a Lenco B-52 - of all things. Ironically this lightweight platter/bearing design has a much better topplate for plinth coupling than the latter-day heavyweights (thicker and panless) – so I’m going to see what treatments I can come up with and then enclose it all into a huge boxed plinth with dustcover (plinth within a plinth). An entry-level Lenco, to be sure, but I’m hoping for a bit of stealth in this re-armed B-52.

Then it’s on to the Big American Idlers where I think I’ve come up with a way to incorporate on-the-fly fine pitch motor control. It’s in my head, anyway.

It’s house clean-out time. Get down to those thrifts and rubberneck those yard sales. There’s still plenty of treasure to found out there!

- Mario

One of the biggest problems with the Lenco (this being relative, as membership in Lenco Lovers now hovers around 1000) is just how incredible-"y" good it is. I use the word "incredible" literally and accurately, as it describes the problems audiophiles and music-lovers have believing the reports of the Lenco Mightiness, which so far FAR outstrips every legendary belt-drive, Direct Drive and even Idler-Wheel Drive so far thrown against it, up to the $20K barrier, this being the ceiling it has hit so far in its quest for definition. By "definition" I mean as in an idea of just how good the Lenco really is, where it measures up. Best in the World? Good as a $30K turntable? Good as a $40K turntable?!? Good as a $100K turntable????!!???? Better than a $100K belt-drive (only belt-drives so far reaching these stratosperic price points)!!??!!??

Now audiophiles and music lovers have to bear something in mind, which I have always emphasized, and which has always represented a significant roadblock/wall in the Irresistable Lenco's Path: if the humble Lenco may be better than the best belt-drive in the world, it is NOT because claims for the Lenco are exaggerated, or a reflection of how literally unbelievably good this particular not-so-impressive 'table is, but instead that the drive system - which just happens to be the most evolved idler-wheel drive ever manufactured - is quite simply superior to the belt-drive system AS A SYSTEM, which in turn means the Lenco is inherently superior to belt-drives because it is not a belt-drive, but instead an idler-wheel drive. Which is where "inherent" comes in. Like pitting a car with round tires against a car with square tires: the round-tired car will win every time, even if in every other respect the square-tired car is its superior. To reiterate, it is not that the Lenco is so good, but that the drive system which the Lenco uses - Idler Wheel Drive - is so good. It's just that the Lenco is the most evolved idler-wheel drive ever manufactured, if not the best/most impressively-built (the EMTs make it look like crap). But, to caution against yet more undeserved conclusions, though the Garrards and EMTs (especially) make the Lencos look like relative crap, the Lenco design (vertical idler-wheel and relatively light platter) ensures that the main bearings remain practically pristine/untouched (no lateral push/friction, mimimal wear) ensuring decades of reliable use, the idler-wheels themselves practically NEVER show signs of wear (the metal ones in fact never in my experience), and the massive motors can be relied on as well for decades, or centuries (considering 40 years of use, another guaranteed forty years after reconditioning, we're not so far away from a century), of use. The platters of course do not wear out.

Well, finally, we will have a showdown between the Lenco and a $40K turntable, that being the SME 30. This means more than the $40K price tage suggests, as the SME 30, despite being less than half the price of some of its competitors, is considered by some The Best Turntable in the World. But, this SME 30 has been modified to accept the Graham Phantom tonearm. Now, if I were to mount a simple Rega RB-300 tonearm on a smaller Lenco, which well might outstrip even the SME 30 (I have a feeling that the EMT 930, outstripped by the 100-pound Ultra Lenco, would itself make mincemeat of the SME 30), then the usual problems with credibility would arise, and this would show as well a certain amount of disrespect, which while useful in the early days of Da Original Thread (there was nothing to lose and everything to gain as the idler-wheel system was Bottom of the Drive System Heap, and the Lenco was bottom of THAT heap, and so disrespect and outrageousness had great PR value), is no longer so useful or constructive now. So, I will consequently take this Showdown VERY seriously: I have bought a SME IV tonearm (used, of course ;-)) to mount on my best Lenco, the 100-pound Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Ultra Lenco. The fellow who owns the SME 30 is admirably in search of the simnple truth, he is simply curious and interested, and is not threatened in the least by this comparison. What a chance is given here, and to him we should all be eternally grateful!!

So, today I mount the SME IV to my Ultra Lenco, and I will play with the variety of cartridges I have to see which will be included in the demo. I may even buy a cartridge specially for the comparison. I'll also lift weights and train in preparation for carrying this monster around :-).

Speaking of lifting weights, it looks like my Leak Stereo 20 will be ready this week, which means schlepping the monstrous E-Vs back to my own listening room, I have no idea how I got those monsters into the basement of my buddy's place all alone (he has a broken leg, lucky him ;-), must have eaten my wheaties that day! Not looking forward to lugging them UP the stairs, MEDIC!! But O the Sound I look forward to! If the E-V sound SO incredible with budget tube stuff, how much better with the legendary Leak?!? I feel faint!

Good luck in finding/choosing a good vintage system Lew, I'm sure you'll be loving every minute of it!! And great to hear you having so much fun Mario, thanks as always for backing me up in my outrageous claims! I'll be opening up and dissecting my E-Vs to write accurately on the drivers and their standing, and may do some things to improve the crossover, wiring and cabinet too. Have fun all, and back later with more Lenco/Idler news!!

Speaking of vintage speakers, I still like my Dynaco's in my vintage living room system. However, I finally heard something that just didnt sound good on this system - a bass heavy Bill Laswell Axiom number. It left me pining for my 211's and some high endy speakers. Which brings me to my new speakers - 15" ATC woofer, 6.5" Accuton mid and Raven 2 tweeter. I will be posting pics soon.

Speaking of pics Jean, how about some pics of the 100 lb super jumbo jet Lenco - as well as some underside pics of the glassed-in Lenco??? If nothing else, get one of those Walmart disposable film cameras. Inquiring minds want to see!

Naturally, we are all quitely confident that much ass will be kicked in this contest vs the upstairs crowd :)

Mike

Super jumbo jet Lenco, what a hoot! I'm working on getting access to high-speed internet and a high-speed computer out here in the country, as soon as I've done this I'll once again be able to post photos, and I REALLY want to do this, if only to snicker at current high-end drivers sitting next to vintage high-end drivers ;-)!!

I've just set-up the SME IV to the 100-pound Super Jumbo Jet Lenco, and mounted my Monster Cable Sigma Genesis 2000 to that, and heard a significant darkening and dynamic flattening of the sound as compared with the same cartridge on both the stellar JMW 10.5 and the stellar RS Labs RS-A1. Now, as context, the Monster Cable kicked the ass of the Denon when set up on the RS-A1, jury's still out on the JMW, as it sounded great with both the Denon and the Monster (and the fab Ortofon Jubilee, which I mistakenly sold....I'll buy another one soon :-)). So, disappointed, I remembered my experience a while back with a SME V I had the opportunity to play with (thanks Bob!), which I wrote about at that time: I found there was a special synergy between the SME V and the humble Denon DL-103 (mine having an elliptical tip from phonophono in Berlin). I figured this would also apply to the nearly-identical SME IV, and mounting it, I found that the Denon now kicked the ass of the previously-superior Monster Cable, in every single audiophile area as well as in musical terms. There was more detail (on other tonearms the Monster was always significantly superior to the Denon in this sense), MUCH better, deeper and tighter bass (on the RS-A1 the reverse is true) and MUCH MUCH more musicality, PRaT, gestalt and overall dynamics! As I wrote back then on a completely different system, the Denon DL-103s, likely in all their iterations, are waiting for the SME IV/V to show just how good they REALLY are (and musically-speaking, vice-versa, the SME IV/V are wating for the Denons - AND idlers - to show just how POTENT they are!)), this match-up being one of those unbeatable synergies, like the air-bearing MG-1/Dynavector 17D MKIII, or the JMW/Decca combinations. For the better off, I say it makes sense to match up a $4K-$5K tonearm to a two hundred dollar cartridge (plus 80 euros for retipping), as this particular cartridge is in many ways one of the best, and on these tonearms even in audiophile terms becomes something much much more (as do the SMEs in question, actually)!! To the less well-heeled, I say the SME tonearms usually go for between $1400 and $1800 used, and with the Denon still comes to less than the price of a currently "reasonably-priced" high-end MC!! I was thinking of selling this tonearm after the Showdown, but now I think I'll keep it. The Ultra Lenco is a two-tonearm Lenco, and the second for now will be the RS-A1/Monster combination.

With the RS-A1 we have a similar story, but in reverse. In this case, the Monster LOMC usually sounds a bit dead and lifeless in comparison with Deccas and Denons, and the RS-A1 can sound too exhuberant. But, the Monster becomes extremely musical, and preserves its super-detail (a high-end MC with a micro-ridge stylus) to become a great combination, having amazing bass, great musicality/PRaT and amazing dynamics to boot! So, there will be a flexibility of options to go against the SME 30!! It's all unexpected synergies fellows, excepting for the universal and across-the-board improvements wrought in every system when a high-mass idler-wheel drive is inserted!! Have fun all!!

Mr Win Tinnon, the Black turntable, and the Oswald Mill tasting report

First from scratch idler built in this century!!

I quote a small portion:

"Mike Lavorgna of Six Moons will be doing a writeup shortly, and I am waiting for participants to send in their photos, but some of the highlights for me this year were Win Tinnon's incredible 200 pound plus new idler drive turntable, in slate. Colby Lamb did the machining, and was also in attendance. Tinnon has a patent pending on the idler mechanism, and they built everything but the motor themselves, with Mark Kelly designing and providing the three phase control electronics. OMA did the slate work, Frank Schroeder provided one of his inimitable tonearms (Reference SQ.)"

Word around the campfire is that the cognoscenti have declared the table one of the best they have ever heard. I sure wish there were pictures.

Oh yes! I have seen the Black Slate Beauty machined parts as they were made.
The idler wheel doesn't use a shaft!
I've been lucky enough to have seen photos of the complete table as well.
I hope to hear this slate beauty, to compare with the Birch ply Lencos in my stable.
Impressive when one considers how well a properly (wood) plinthed, tweaked out Lenco can stand up to the ultraexpensive belt drives.
The word from the Mill is that this one is fantabulous.

Well, at this end I've been bootin' it to get that Lenco vs SME 30 showdown set-up, which apparently happens this week. It'll be set up over a week and played before a line-up of various excited witnesses. So, to recap, it'll be the Mighty Lenco - excepting for proper restoration, and some tweaks, "Au Naturel", but Direct Coupled to a Giant Russian birch-ply/MDF plinth - with a variety of tonearm/cartridge combos, vs the SME 30 set up with a Graham Phantom/Benz LP combo. We'll also likely simply move the RS-A1/Monster Cable Sigma Genesis 2000 from one turntable to the other, as the RS-A1 makes this easy.

In other news, I finally received the rebuilt Leak Stereo Twenty, which turned out to be astonishingly detailed and fast. I've now got it set-up with the Mighty Electro-Voice three-way speakers of mine, which belong to the Patrician era. The combo, with my ultra-quiet Pioneer C-91 preamp, is incredibly dynamic, quiet and detailed, with amazing bass, PRaT and gestalt, even with only the "humble" replinthed Technics SP-25 in heavy plinth, with Sumiko FT-3 matched to a cheapie - and not very good - Supex MM!! I cannot wait to hear it with a Giant Lenco tonight, don't even know what to expect given the irresistable results I already have as-is! Holy Crap! I'm also installing a beer fridge, and will be inviting the interested to come and hear what vintage items (mixed in with some modern) can REALLY do! Being in a garage/workshop out in the country, there's no limit on SPLs too ;-).

Too bad what should have been great news is severely mitigated by petty politics, axe-grinding, and the need to create neurosis as to a certain Mighty record player ;-). Nevertheless, cause to celebrate the Ongoing Idler-Wheel Revolution, let's hear it: Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler Wheel!!!

"Too bad what should have been great news is severely mitigated by petty politics, axe-grinding, and the need to create neurosis as to a certain Mighty record player ;-)."

What do you mean? Anyway the Might record player will be reviewed at 6moons. Already written up there and much interest has been shown. I guess they a good thing when they see one. ...and a bad one as well. ;-)

Gadfly wrote:
"I guess they(know)a good thing when they see one..."
The key word is here is "see".
Might be wise to have a good listen before puffing up one's chest.
- Mario

Gospel according to Mario. Now we get parables.

What I was referring to was the failed attempt of JeanNatais to get 'his' idler reviewed by 6 moons who kind of didn't want to anyway and the drool effect that the Mighty turntable had with them. A drastic comparison ... not by me mind you, oh faithful apostle, but the moon guys.

So no one has to take my word for anything. Yours either, I might add.

Hey Goadfly, why not just start your own thread called Buying high-end tables for a lot of money down at the Mill?

Don

Well, Mucus53, I suppose because this was a thread that mentioned the table before. My posts was like a followup. And the table did start out as a Lenco but shows how far you can go if you strip most of what was Lenco clean away.

Lenco are probably the lowest form of applied idler technology there is and the idea that you could take that application and rise much further can give ideas to other builders. Ideas come from all over unless you shut your mind, hone to party principle, or just plain become purposefully ignorant.

Which one are you, Mucus?

Dung Beetle is back, proving my point, it'd be nice if my opponents were of higher quality. There a bug zapper available in this forum?

I got around to hooking up a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco into the ultra-slammin' Leak/Electro-Voice garage system and I was astounded to discover the system had TOO MUCH dynamics!! And I don't mean distortion, hardening or brightness, the usual hallmarks of overloading. The sound is smooth, with no hardening, no brightness, but still, the sound emerges with SUCH slam and speed it's just too much! I've never heard anything like it. The actual model of the E-Vs is still a mystery, but they share the same type of cabinet-work as is visible on the fabled - and MUCH larger - Patricians (with 30" woofers!!!!). The Lenco was set up with a re-wired Rega RB-300 and a plain vanilla Denon DL-103, and that running into the ultra-quiet Pioneer C-91, which has state of the art detail via the Leak/E-V system. So, I do believe this system will be an MM-only system, as MCs simply have too much speed. That was the vintage balance, which were used with either MMs or rich-sounding MCs (i.e. Ortofon SPUs) and rich-sounding tonearms. Or, alternatively, I may source a tubed preamp, or try out something more vintage, or perhaps SETs!! Anyway, next project: try to tone down those ear-slammin' dynamics.

So, this definitely demonstrates the effectiveness of the "humble" (but ultra-effective) Russian birch-ply/MDF recipe, as well as those older idler-wheel drive machines, which even in this VERY high-efficiency system, with their tendency to amplify noise such as tube roar, and with awesome deep bass (12" HEAVY woofer in a large box) has NO 'table related noise, as if it wasn't already well established literally around the world. The ultra-revealing Leak/E-V system is indeed a mighty testing tool, especially as concerns the relative dynamics of 'tables (the Technics had nowhere near the Lenco's SLAM and speed) and materials. The Lenco, in turn, when mounted with modern tonearms and cartridges, serves to beef up modern sound systems with their relatively limited dynamics and speed. Again, this vintage system shows just how modern-sounding vintage equipment (like idler-wheel drives) is, in the new digital-inspired paradigm shift towards speed and clarity. What goes around comes around!

Ah, and MORE developments in the Idler-Wheel Revolution, or the Continuing Adventures of the Myth of Progress: the latest recipient of the old "create a neurosis/unfair picture of the older technology/machine so as to promote your new product" award (I'll REALLY have to start up the assembly line!!), which lately went to Teres with their claim that idler-wheel drives had speed instabilities which their solution addressed, goes to Harry Weisfeld of VPI for promoting his new external rim-drive (same as the Teres in this sense): "With the rim drive, the Scoutmaster acquires a kind of "digital" (in the best sense of the term) clarity and control at the bottom of the frequency spectrum. Rim drives were, once, common in turntable designs at the beginning of the stereo era, and they were both noisy and not all that reliable - and they were, to boot, on the underside of the platter, not, as in this case, an external drive. The Rim Drive is, for the Scoutmaster series, a major advance."

A victory for the Idler War nevertheless, as all such news is!! But, I wish they didn't feel the need to revive and promote the old Dogmas I worked so hard to slay in the original thread in order to, ironically and in the first place, promote the idler-wheel drives they are now promoting due to my slaying of the Dogma!!! Oh the HUMANITY!!

So, to be clear, I have made HUGE claims for the rebuilt Lencos (which, being cheaper, served as the needed Ambassador to my claims for the superiority of the idler-wheel drive system, which was then dismissed as "not serious" and passé by the modern press/consumers) Garrards, and other vintage idler-wheel drives, and having done such, have put my name on the line with each one I sent out to make my point and each one which is built by readers/partcipants themselves. And the result?? A "sudden" return of the idler-wheel drive by current manufacturers, a multiplication of reviews of vintage idler-wheel drives (and quasi idler-wheel drives, as Art Dudley's report on his now-darling Thorens TD-124 attests in the latest Stereophile: he's finally turned his back on his dear Linn LP12!!!!), the increasing domination of idler-wheel drives of vinyl forums, and the rise of dedicated Lenco forums. It doesn't take a genius to see that these old machines are POTENT, can be integrated into modern full-range system with NO noise penalties and with a minimum of tweaking (apart from replinthing and restoration with better lubricants), with the astonishing revelation that these old machines have state of the art detail, imaging, dynamics and BASS.

Not that the return of the idler-wheel drive to the market isn't good news, it is, after all, what I was after all along: for the benefit of audiophiles around the world, a BIG increase in the more fundamental musical aspects of PRaT, gestalt, and excitement (with, however, a coomnsurate increase in detail, organization and imaging). It would be nice, however, if due respect and, yes, gratitude, were paid to the older machines. Let us bow our heads and acknowledge the miracle of the development of the idler, which was developed specifically to deal with the issue of Stylus Force Drag, which was SERIOUS back then with cartridges tracking at 10 grams!! But, this, it turns out, was the right approach to the biggest problem in vinyl playback all along, the braking action of the stylus in the modulated grooves, the greater the modulations (big dynamic swings, bass, complexity of large ensembles), the greater the braking action, and the effects on speed stability (belt-drives losing power exactly when the biggest modulations occur).

Anyway, Vive la Lenco (An Instrument in the Return of the Idler), Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!

My question was serious but you just ride over it. Smother it with insults. Which is the ignorant way.

I counter that you did very little in the idler movement except call attention to yourself. Much more important inovations are happening all around and it is proof that in this thread all that will be ignored.

sniff sniff.

too bad for your apostles.

Ah Dung Beetle, you know, I used to fight like a demon on all sorts of forums, like you, the difference being that I fought for a cause, the Idler Wheel Revolution which I was trying to make happen at the time, which consisted of righting a wrong: the unfair characterization of the idler-wheel system, and the error as to its ultimate merit and position on the Great Ladder of Audio Being. You, on the other hand, only attack your betters, The Mighty as you so generously call me, dig up dirt, manufacture dirt, misinterpret what you think is dirt, misinterpret the actual landscape (because you can't, being an insect, see above the dirt) are obsessed with dirt, and take pleasure in spiteful attacks, like the insect you aspire to be. Success, yes, but wrong insect, you'll always be only a Dung Beetle.

As always, my opponents, "men", for lack of a better word, being motivated not by constructive desires but by base motives, aren't too bright. As such, uh, insects, commonly do, you've got it Bass-Ackwards, it's not that the Mighty (thanks again for including me) have fallen, but that the Mighty Have Succeeded, as even Win's activities attest, which only furthers my own desires. Now that the Idler Wheel Revolution is truly underway, what left do I have to do? We'll get back to that at the end.

As to your ugly crowing and prancing about, I was there first, as this attests: first there, thanks a bunch for the opportunity to remind everyone. As to the dirt you imagine you've dug up on me, try using your tiny little insectile mind (can't expect much here): 6moons/Srajan Ebaen lives on Cyprus, and living on Cyprus must process many audio pieces through Customs in order to continue producing reviews. Given the volume and work involved in navigating Greek-speaking government bodies, he uses a full-time professional Customs brokerage firm to retrieve said pieces for review. It's his Customs agents, under his instructions, who handled the whole thing, and who could not retrieve the item from Customs...until the review was cancelled six weeks later (may be connected to that 6 moons thing), to the day as it worked out, interestingly enough. In fact, one of the ugliest experiences of my life, which is why I balk at discussing it, but, like the Dung Beetle you are, you keep digging and bringing it back up, your specialty. There's be nothing to help your cause here, so you'd better shy away from this particular topic, as it won't redound to the name of those you currently promote (but will likely turn on later, being who and what you are) but instead blow up in your and their faces. I kept records of the whole thing, as I do of all e-mails I see will later lead to trouble.

In fact, I have e-mails from Win (older than the ugly crowing one he sent me just recently), in the days before he clambered onto the Idler Wheel Revolution I was leading and directing at the time via the Lenco, with the help of other participants, the days when he was promoting his Pabst motors and thread-drive vintage juggernauts. I kept on telling him to proceed with the Lenco asap, and it evidently turns out I was right, as where is the Pabst motor-driven thread-drive now? So, thanks for giving me the opportunity to remind him, and others who have dedicated their lives to being a nuisance to me over the years, that their current status as Defenders of the Idler Faith (having in a sense become me, the man they did and continue to oppose and attack) traces back to me and my activities and plans: the Idler-Wheel Revolution which is now truly underway. So, here's your dirt, eat it and eat well, every victory of theirs becomes, ipso facto, a victory of mine, maddening isn't it? ;-). So how do they - and fellows like you - handle this? By going around the 'Net trying to erase memory of my history of battles (check out my postings, under the monicker "melomane", and battles on VA back when my claims for the Lenco and idlers in general receivbed nothing but vicious and ugly attacks), victories, writings and conclusions (many of which they steal outright), and distorting the facts (i.e. like the fellow about to unveil an exciting new product telling all who will listen that the Lenco is really not such a good machine, and has a truly questionable motor, as if my activities were restricted to only Lencos). Someone ALMOST succeeded with the accidental deletion of the original thread, which at that time was the largest ever in audio history. But, Mario, and others who had grown accustomed to my "Rants into the Void" and the generally positive exchange characteristic of the Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot - when fellows like you aren't involved - wouldn't let it be, even though I was prepared to "retire" due to the ugliness (reminiscent of your own) which was likely behind the deletion of the original Titanic thread (which is why it was Mario who brought it back and not me).

What have YOU achieved, Dung Beetle? Perhaps you should do a little real digging and aspire instead to the Socratic search for truth you claim to aspire to, and read this: The Record. Lenco Heaven was the first dedicated Lenco forum, which as the dedication proves, was a direct result of, and inspired by, my thread on Audiogon and overall activities (I posted often then on VA), which from the first - and still thanks even to postings by such insects as you - dominated the Analog section of Audiogon, for well over four years now? You got anything similar under your belt, Dung Beetle? And that dedicated forum led to another very sucessful one, now numbering over 1000 members. Blinded by the usual spite, as such opponents of mine through the years have been, you miss as well the obvious, the dedication to this part two of my original Building high-end 'tables cheap thread, read it again: "“For those who want the moon but can't afford it or those who can afford it but like to have fun and work with their hands, I'm willing to give out a recipe for a true high-end 'table which is easy to do, and fun to make as sky's the limit on design/creativity! The cost of materials, including 'table, is roughly $200 (depending, more or less), and add to that a Rega tonearm. The results are astonishing. I'll even tell/show you how to make chipboard look like marble and fool and impress all your friends. If there's interest I'll get on with this project, if not, I'll just continue making them in my basement. The next one I make will have a Corian top and have a zebra stripe pattern! Fun! Any takers?” The Lead in “Da Thread” as posted by Johnnantais - 2-01-04
Let the saga continue. Sail on, oh ships of Lenco!
Mario_b"

Look at the date, check your facts. As Lenco Heaven attests, I made the Lenco a worldwide phenomenon (with the help of those supporters who either had faith in me or were just attracted by my sheer cussedness) by my PR idea to disguise my Idler Wheel Revolution agenda as a budget DIY Super Project (which in fact I was also doing and believed in as well, one of my pet peeves being overpriced crapola), and so lauch it into the general population - as again the evidence supports (First Try. You, or Win for that matter, achieve anything similar? While you crow about a product, I helped change the stream of audio history, killing a Dogma, and helped create and make the Idler Wheel Revolution which is now truly currently underway. Many of the current "captains" of said revolution will sadly be found to have tried their damnedest to stop me by whatever means possible in beginning days, when someone bothers to write and research a real and accurate history of the Return of the Idler Wheel.

To those who wish to launch a new product, I offer the following, now tardy, warning: Don't launch an exciting new product on a foundation of dirt, before a review, backed by Dung Beetles, this is no way to make a fresh new mark. ESPECIALLY don't crow about such a fact. You should have immediately dissociated yourselves instead of embracing him/it. Instead of fresh steak, you now have on your hands rotten meat.

So let's do a little media analysis, my "gagne-pain": The announcement of said exciting new product was by Dung Beetle, who many remembered was here previously digging and promoting dirt, as Mario's response attests: "09-24-07: Mario_b...OK Gadfly, do as your handle implies and buzz off to snipe somewhere else. You’ve become repetitive in your negativity, so maybe you’ve convinced yourself that there’s good reason to hate others more than yourself." The fact he was recognized is indicated by the way the announcement went up like a lead balloon. In fact, I deliberately did not post for ages following the announcement in order to make clear to all watching that something was fishy in the state of Denmark, and that the smell reached many. One posting, and that cleverly mitigated, when usually such an annoucenment would be greeted by a great congratulatory clamouring. The product is the brain-child of yet another [recently-exposed] opponent with an axe to grind, Mosin. The product is made of slate. In a big foofarah just a few posts above, Mosin, being coy and not announcing the pending review, promotes the incredible superiority of slate over wood as a material given secret processes he would not share, and cautions readers not to believe everything I write because I sell some of the products I describe in great detail so any who can can follow (and in turn go on to feed their audio habits by Re-building these Mighty Machines for others).

Let's look at this claim, by the same fellow who cautions aginst believing those who are selling a product: "Hello again, "Is slate better then combo of MDF, ply baltic birch ???" There is absolutely no contest. Slate has properties none of those materials can match. Wood can be used to make a very nice plinth material, but slate has it beat. "What I do know is that making plinth for Lenco or any other turntable from slate can and probably is pain in the A$$ to execute successfully and effectively." True, but worth the trouble. Using slate is a simple case of careful planning, and proficiency with tools. It is definitely not a material for those who do "get by" work, however. Still, I believe it can be handled by most who possess rudimentary skills, and have a few decent tools at their disposal. A $300,000 water jet CNC and a crew to run it does help. ;) mosin"

Finally, the announcement and following (and previous) posts makes much of the fact the review is to occur in the same publication as that in which my own projected review was cancelled, said inept and destructive Dung Beelte revelling in the assumed fact this is a major blow. Do any of the parties involved come out looking good, excepting, perhaps, me?

Evil (to use an appropriate but perhaps too-large term), they say, is stupid. It works against itself, and so inevitably will never completely conquer and succeed. Here is that saying demonstrated and proven. To those involved parties who imagine this is only a thread with no reach, you better hope so, but, judging from the fan-mail I continue to receive, even long after I have seriously curtailed my internet activities (following the deletion of the original thread), this isn't so. Teres uses a term I coined and created to explain how to achieve incredible results from Idler Wheel drives: "Direct Coupling." VPI now has introduced the ilder-wheel principle as major upgrade to their products (as did Teres). A new dedicated Lenco forum has arisen, with membership reaching 1000 and likely growing. There's gonna be a serious rotten-egg smell aboput this whole affair and assocaited products and writings. What you all need as a PR expert, to prevent such titanic cock-ups and blowing-up-in-your-faces scenarios. But, evil is stupid. Enjoy your "victory" all, does it smell good?

Dung Beetle, perhaps you are an adult, but I picture you as an overweight, self-loathing, stringy-haired, pimply adolescent giggling as he posts on his parent's computer, that's how you come across anyway. I'm going to post a photo of myself - for the first time ever as I have always shied away from public exposure, believe it or not ;-) - and for your edification, since you seem to revel so in others', and espcially my, "misery," of me being miserable in Egypt, part of a four-month tour of Greece and the Middle East, as I wait for the Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lenco. Check it out under my "system", entitled "Waiting in Egypt for 6moons Lenco".

Now, getting back on-topic, which is "Building high-end 'tables Cheap at Home Despot", the showdown between, in THIS corner, The Mighty Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lenco (with "humble" MDF/Russian birch-ply plinth recipe) with a variety of tonearms and cartridges, versus, in THAT corner, the Pricey, $40K SME 30 mounted with a Graham Phantom/Benz Ebony combo, happens this coming week!! The comparison will be set up over a week or more to allow various local audiophiles to attend and witness the Big Event. Watch this space!!!!

As written for 4 years now, let's all sing along: Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler Wheel!!!

.

Jean,

I have sworn off the thread, but please don't take too much credit for anything I have done, or am doing. You did not start me on my journey of turntable building. I have explored many avenues, including string drives, etc., and yes, the Lenco avenue. What turntable maker wouldn't look into the past to see what came before? Fresh designs shouldn't emulate the past, however, because doing that would be the antithesis of fresh. Still, nothing new is created in a vacuum. In the e-mail I sent you, I merely pointed out that my turntable is in no way related to a Lenco, aside from being an idler, because in the end, I chose an entirely different path. That e-mail was necessary only to correct a misconception that can be read into certain posts here, and that is all. The Lenco wasn't even the first idler that I explored, nor was it the last. It is true that certain aspects of the Lenco interest me, but there is no panacea offered by it, as far as I am concerned. In any event, I cannot see how that would offend you, or seem "crowing", as you say. In fact, you should be thrilled, so please don't make future references to me at all. It is appropriate, as we are obviously on different planes when it comes to turntable design.

Unless my name is mentioned again, I will post no more. I have other things to occupy my time.

Regards,
Win

_______

"As to your ugly crowing and prancing about"

One has to smile at that as Jean Natais pounds his concave chest.

"Teres uses a term I coined and created to explain how to achieve incredible results from Idler Wheel drives: "Direct Coupling."

- I will interpret this as Jean Natais invented the internet.

I will let stand your latest post as the chisel work on the gravestone of your popularity.

Hey, good for you Gadfly. Your next assignment: Learn to spell his name :-)

Hummmm???
Maybe its time to end Da Thread, Lenco Heaven and Lenco Lovers?
I propose LENCOS ANONYMOUS!!!
Twelve step program could go something like this:
-get some ply wood
-get a lenco
-throw the arm away
-get an RB300
-get a 103
OK, ya'll can add some more steps.
- Oh. one more step; email Mario, and get the the original thread which was mysteriously deleted at 4k+ hits.
This is where it started with me and many others when we saw a post about building a great turntable for 200 bucks, posted by some crazy nut. If you don't feel like sending Mario an email, (leave him alone, I'm sure he'd rather listen to some tunes), and simply see the 5 steps posted above, that's the basics.
This is where I first heard of a Lenco. I was actually prepared to buy a used (expensive) table. But when I emailed the seller, he said it had sold. Then he said, "the Lenco kicks the ass of the ..." (insert table name which the seller had just sold).
Now, I, like others, take the ideas which are shared on this thread- which Jean created, and lucky for us, Mario saved- and build some excellent, affordable* turntables.
I use the word lucky. Ideas are shared openly and transparently. At least that's been so with most of the Lenco fanatics on this thread.
*Affordable? The great Lenco was a stealing deal back when Jean started da thread. Now, even eBay seems to be looking for some.
Here goes: Lencos Anonymous
My user name is Oregon:I have several Lencos that I listen to, several which I've sold and some for sale. It baffles me that some folks would spend 40 THOUSAND DOLLARS for a turntable when there is a superb table which will bring the music from the grooves of your records to your grateful ears and still give you MORE pleasure. Just think of all the records you could buy with the $32,000.00 you have left over? Just think of all the synapses bursting in euphoric joy and sorrow when the MUSIC calls for it?
Jimi slicing down a mountain and building islands...
Beethoven and Schiller calling out to humanity...
Dylan opening a window...
Mozart reaching us through a clarinet...
Coltrane injecting us...

I quit the LA.
Time to put some records on!

Oregon,

" Maybe its time to end Da Thread, Lenco Heaven and Lenco Lovers?"

Why??? As long as Lenco Lovers is concerned, we are having a lot of fun, and if you would pay a visit, you would see that the last and final word on plinths has not been said yet!

Regards,
François.

Francois,
Just joking.
This is an excellent thread. Sometimes things get a little rocky.
I am familiar with Lenco Lovers and it is fantastic!

Oregon,

You may have been joking, but you have a point though as many times, instead of building and testing, there is a bit too much theoretical discussions just going nowhere, but still something can be taken out of all the digressions and "mad scientist" considerations ;-)

"This is an excellent thread. Sometimes things get a little rocky.
I am familiar with Lenco Lovers and it is fantastic!"
Thanks for the nice words!

François.

"instead of building and testing, there is a bit too much theoretical discussions just going nowhere"

Yes, Francois.
Unfortunately, you are correct.
Here's a question to the Lenco Brethren:
Which is your best arm/cart combo with the mighty L75 replinth?

Though I don't use a L75 (GL55 with heavy platter mod) , my favourite combo, so far is Schick+SPU, but it's only a matter of personal taste in the end ;-)

You're not gonna believe this, Oregon, but my current favorite arm/cart on a JN-replinthed Lenco L75 had a TOTAL brand new cost of $340. It's the 12-inch cherry wood tonearm sold here on Audiogon for $200, bearing a Pickering TL-2S offered for years by a U.K. seller for $140 (unfortunately he's out of them). I'll probably go back at some point to my $3500 (MSRP) rig, nameless for now, but the el-cheapo combo is top dog. Dave

Speaking of building and testing, here are the preliminary results of the Mighty SME 30 vs Mighty Lenco Shootout!!

As you all should know by now, the Lenco in question is a standard Lenco L75/L78 (same difference), with its cavities filled in with marine-grade glass-epoxy in order to kill resonances without sacrifing dynamics (by using energy-kiling materials such as sorbothane & etc. which also indiscriminately kill off natural musical dynamics), Direct Coupled to a massive Russian birch-ply/MDF plinth for a total of 100 pounds. The Lenco itself has had none of its parts replaced, only restored by various manners. The original mat was glued in place, the main bearing is orginal with no tweaks, the motor is restored and rebalanced with no replacement of parts or power conditioners. Basically an original Lenco, restored and Direct Coupled, set on a marble/acrylic slab. The tonearm is a SME IV and is combined with a Clearaudio Concerto cartridge. Why it you ask? Well, the SME 30 is after all a $40K turntable from a very serous engineering company, and is furthermore mounted with a state of the art Graham Phantom tonearm and a Benz LP cartridge, all VERY heady stuff. The tube preamp/phono preamp was set for low-output MCs only, and so I couldn't bring in my JMW/Decca combo. The Concerto was the only available high-end MC in the shop (and I got agood deal for the SME IV ;-)), so I trusted myself to the Audio Gods and bought it: turns out the Concerto/SME combo is superb, Hallelujah!! The system consisted of top-of-the-line Atma-Shere electronics (BOY was it hot in that listening room!) matched to Sound Lab ESLs.

Good thing I went to these lengths too, as it turns out the SME 30 is after all a superb, World Class turntable (but said owner, Rick, being extremely generous of spirit, instantly deemed the Lenco World Class too), and the results were very close indeed in audiophile terms, and in fact is not yet settled on many counts: the cartridge loading was right for the Benz LP at 500 ohms, but badly off for the Clearaudio Concerto, which requires 47K into a tubed preamp according to the manual, we'll attend to that in Round Two.

The shootout was very good and favoured, musically-speaking, the Lenco, which it was admitted by the owner of the SME had superior rhythm, SLAM (punchiness), musical excitement and gestalt/music-as-an-organic-whole. But, the SME 30 was much better than I thought (it being a belt-drive and all ;-)). The bass was pretty well a toss-up for now, with the SME being superior on some recordings, and the Lenco being superior on others. Overall, the Lenco's bass was, given the right recording, more powerful and deeper with more impact and detail. But on other recordings, the Lenco was less well-defined and the SME took the lead. The Lenco was superior on all records in terms of PRaT, or Rhythm, Pace and Timing, admitted by the owner of the SME 30 as well (did I mention he is extremely genrous of spirit?). The owner, a bass player, thought the Lenco coloured in the bass and the SME neutral. I thought that this was recording-dependent, that the better the bass recording (the deeper and more natural), the better the Lenco retrieved it over the SME. Seems as well to be an issue of neutrality vs colouration: if your definition of neutral is more on the dry side, then yes, the Lenco's bass seems more tube-like. If your definition of bass is that it should be naturally "juicy", then the Lenco's bass is more natural and so neutral. It is not known how much of the Lenco's bass in the Shootout is in fact attributable to both cartridge loading, and to the natural sound of the Concerto (which is found by some to have "loose" bass, but which is not evident on all recordings, the bass on some records being superb and astounding). Same applies of course to the Graham/Benz combo.

Both 'tables were very detailed, but in the midrange the Lenco was the clear winner, resolving detail better, revealing relations both in terms of timing and raw detail/separation of instruments. Also, there was more "swing" and dynamics, and a more overall natural sound and gestalt/magic. Again, judgment came down to what was more neutral, and what was more coloured (transparency and detail-retrieval aside). Should music be as magical as it was via the Lenco, and was the SME in fact telling the truth/being more neutral? We'll get back to that, and the Shootout continues for a couple of weeks.

In the highs the SME was the clear winner, being more extended and resolving more air, but we'll hopefully address that by correcting the loading issue.

Now, both turntables were declared by all present incredible and World Class, the question being that vexing question of neutrality vs colouration. Now, the owner of the SME 30 felt the SME was more neutral, that the Lenco was coloured, but freely admitted the Lenco was superb and World Class, and both were about even overall. And here I will make a stab at some Socratic argumentation in order to effect a Paradigm Shift in his thinking. To wit: what is music's most immediate and obvious characteristic? Answer: musicality. According to this iron-bound logic then, it is the 'table which transmits less of this musicality which is the more coloured, and the table which retrieves more of this characteristic which is more neutral.

We have all undergone an incorrect Paradigm Shift in recent audio times with the rise of digital, and have equated this far more dry and matter-of-fact presentation
(and seemingly more scientific with the inclusive complex mathematics and computer/elctronics trickery) with neutrality. This is a faulty yardstick, the real yardstick should be live music, as The Absolute Sound suggests, which is NEVER dry and analytical. According to this, the Lenco, juicy and magical and entertaining as it is, is in fact more neutral, while the more matter-of-fact/cerebral SME 30 is more coloured/digital. Of course, everyone will draw their own conclusions and express/yield to their own tastes. And, furthermore, the Shootout is far from over, more conclusions, feelings and so on ahead as we next tend to the Concerto's cartridge loading and open the doors to more witnesses.

This is all very exciting, and I would like a BIG round of applause to Rick, who is extremely generous of spirit and open-minded, and who made this all possible!! Wish there more out there like him!!

Have fun all, I'm hoping the Reinderspeter top-plate Lenco will be ready in time to throw into the ring as well!! Have fun all!

Very interesting - and even handed too. Who ever said that this thread was all about hyperbole? :) I can vouch for the fact that a cartridge that needs to be loaded at 47K sounds terrible at 1K or lower - killing the air. So, in a way, the results are even more impressive.

Jean, are you considering anything special for Peter's plate - in terms of material?

I just ordered Trans-fi's Terminator - due any day now - and was thinking of making a dedicated plinth. My two arm plinth (a mix of mdf, birch ply and drywall) continues to fight me all the way - now the stain wont dry. Boo Hoo. Pics soon to come.

Mike

Hi Mike, the proof that it was never hyperbole is here!! And I always wanted to know what the Lenco as-is could do, Direct Coupling and all that leaving the machine itself untouched, more in the way of "excavating" the Mighty Lenco's capabilities, like excavating a lost city from a mound of rubbish, than modification. Once one interferes with/replaces the original machine's parts, then one loses sight of what it could do all along, of the context.

So, further developments: the owner of the SME 30 now also concedes the Lenco superiority in the bass, though there are now newer mitigating circumstances even here. In removing the loading resistors from the phono stage and so going to a 47K loading for the Concerto, he found that both machines improved vastly (as per Harry Pearson's preference for loading ALL MCs at 47K), so now we have a whole new shootout! I'll find out more tomorrow when I go in for more auditioning myself.

Peter's top-plate will be Direct Coupled to the usual Russian birch-ply/MDF recipe, so I will hear exactly what it brings to the party. THEN I will slowly replace parts with improved bearing kits and so on and climb the Idler Ladder and report in detail. As written, I hope to finish the Reinderspeter top-plate Lenco in time to match it against the SME 30 as well.

A buddy of mine who had my Electro-Voice speakers in his system can no longer live with current speakers, and is preeparing to buy a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls. Hooray for Progress ;-)!!! Have fun all.

Jean and Rick,
Thanks for allowing us to hear about your findings. I agree that the Lenco is superb where musicality thrives- the midrange. Most likely due to stability of speed. Of course, the highs and lower frequencies are powerful, defined and clear.
The Denon 103s have impressed me, but now I find that the Dynavector 17D III has opened up the sounstage- bloom and depth- to another level.
The 17D is an excellent cart.
Have a great Summer ya'll!

I had never heard that HP recommends 47K but I have always wondered about folks that say that such and such a cartridge sounds better loaded at 50 ohms or 100 ohms. They always sound better to me at 47K - I even built a fancy resistor switching scheme into my preamp but after the first few tries, I never used it again. It makes me wonder if the loading down an MC is something that works in bright (SS) systems.

Mike

Hi Jean,
The shoot-out sounds great. It'll certainly be interesting if and when Peter's plate enters the fray. But getting back to our stock top plates....
Can you tell us a little more about the marine grade glass epoxy that you’re using on the underside of the top plate? Is a fast or slow cure? I take it that you invert the top plate; level it, then fill it “to the rim”. Obviously, you’ve got “dikes” of some sort to prevent the resin from flowing to “no go” areas like the idler/speed control assembly. Do you use a putty for this. Any brand names?
All best,
Mario

This seems more like a personal blog space than anything else.

Dear Jean, I know that I sound like a nattering nabob of negativism (thank you, Spiro Agnew's speech writer), but very widely experienced analoguistas like Raul have written on this site that the tonearm/cartridge combo has far more to do with the "flavors" of the resulting sound from an LP than does the table per se. I take Raul very seriously in this instance since he owns a staggering array of tables, arms, and cartridges and seems to play with different combinations of them ad nauseam. Therefore, the experiment conducted by you and Rick is at least as much a comparison of the respective tonearms and cartridges as it is a comparison of two turntables, if not moreso. (I will disagree with Raul to the extent that I heard a huge difference when I moved my one and only Triplanar and Koetsu Urushi from my Notts Hyperspace to my giant direct-coupled Lenco.) Would it be possible at least to swap the two cartridges between the two set-ups and re-evaluate?

I thought I would take a minute or two and write up a brief summary, in my own words, of my experiences with the vintage Lenco vs. SME 30/2 discussion. With all due respect to Jean, I think I’m being misquoted and somewhat misrepresented so I want to set the record straight for anyone who might be reading this.

I’m not a dealer and I don’t sell SME or Lenco products. Actually, I don’t sell any products at all. I’m just an audio hobbyist and have been for years. Simple.

I do have friends who own or have owned Lenco turntables in the past who wanted to hear this comparison in my personal system. Many are familiar with it and have been invited over before.

What I really I wanted to hear is what a vintage turntable would sound like in a modern, state-of-the-art stereo system. If anything, I wanted to believe that the Lenco (or any vintage turntable) might compare favorably with the SME 30/2.

So is the Lenco superior to the SME 30/2 in any way? In a word - no. Does it match the SME for pure truth in musical reproduction? Again, no. The Lenco is a fine turntable but it’s not really as honest as the SME 30/2. Why should it be? The differences between the two tables are vast.

What the Lenco is is a very good vintage turntable that has very pleasing musical colorations that deviate significantly from the very neutral and musical presentation of the SME 30/2.

Here is one test we did that was very significant to this conclusion. I have beside the SME 30/2 a fully restored AMPEX ATR-102 with Aria electronics from ATR Services in the USA. This is used in mastering facilities throughout the world and is state-of-the-art in tape reproduction. I also have a subscription to The Tape Project, which I highly recommend. The music and the reproduction are extraordinary and the closest to the live musical event I have yet experienced. We played TP-003 Arnold Overtures - The Smoke from the 1/4” dub from the 1” running master tape from Reference Recordings. It is breathtaking. Audiophile terminology simply doesn’t apply here. It’s as close to live as you are going to hear.

Once we had this as our aural benchmark, we shifted to the identical recording on 180 g audiophile vinyl from Reference Recordings on the SME 30/2. Differences were present but absolutely minor and many were due to the inherent limitations of vinyl. The SME 30/2 presents itself as a neutral platform, neither adding nor subtracting sonically to what is on the recording. It’s sonically as close to the tape as you might want and very close to the musical event captured on that tape. This is what the SME 30/2 does exceedingly well. It is an honest musical turntable that is able to give you the most that your vinyl has to offer. That is why I bought it.

We then turned our attention to the Lenco and this is where we begin to hear how the Lenco differs from the master tape and the SME 30/2. It is not a neutral platform and it does have some rather significant colorations. These colorations are pleasing to some and may play very well to certain systems. I would imagine that the Lenco would fair extremely well in a vintage system playing either with horns, Quads or speaker systems that are not full range.

The Lenco has a pronounced bass boost that is a little fast and heavy, a warmer, livelier midrange that may cause snare drums and percussion instruments to leap out in stark contrast to the background music, and a pronounced rolled off top end that tends to take some of the life out of the music and reduces the subtle room interactions that are present on the recording. This provides slam, impact, and a snap to every recording you might want to throw at it but it is not an honest reproducer. These issues may also be arm, cartridge or set-up related. It’s not an exact science here.

To address the obvious value concern, the SME 30/2 is an expensive table but worth every penny in my system. I think it represents fine value for the money and allows me to hear the music recording as honestly as possible. I’d like to believe that a turntable costing thousands less might give me that experience, as I’m sure, would many others however, it’s simply not the case. If you are considering the SME 30 (or the 20 - I’ve owned both) buy the SME. You will never be disappointed.

If you are considering the Lenco, buy the Lenco, or better yet, build a Lenco as Jean suggests. It’s a fun table and a very musical player, colorations and all. It’s relatively inexpensive and you will learn a great deal about vintage audio. It would be a very fun table to listen to against any current offering. You would begin to hear that almost every table has a sound and you might find one that you like.

Enjoy your hobby and have fun.

We have another week with this table and Jean has taken it back to his shop to fit it with a JMW tonearm and to repair some obvious speed-stability related issues the table has had since it arrived in my house.

Please remember the opinions expressed by this broadcast may not necessarily be those of this station or its affiliates.

Thank you.

Rick

Hi Lew, no you don't sound negative at all: my answer to you is that we take what we can get. Rick is an incredibly generous fellow, and who knows, maybe he will even be willing some day to transfer his tonearm/cart to my Lenco, I'll have a blank armboard ready and a drill-press!! But, I totally understand him if he doesn't want to start discombobulating his pricey SME to further the experiment. I have no cartridges which can compete with the Benz LP and Clearaudio Concerto in my arsenal which are not tapped and so useable with the tapped RS-A1, I will have to finally strip the threads in my RS-A1 and make it useable with tapped cartridges: THEN we will be able to perhaps simply plunk the RS-A1 on one turntable and simply swap it over to the other for a fair comparison (but given the SME 30's suprisingly compact dimensions, this necessitates complete removal of the Graham Phantom). He is certainly curious, so who know? But, our neutrality vs musical truth dichotomy continues, and so is the Shootout which continues for Round Three next week!

It turns out my Lenco has a faulty idler-slide mechanism, too loose and no way to fix it without replacing it, seems there was some variation in these and we must be careful in swapping parts from one Lenco to the next (there is also some variation in the length of the idler-wheel arms as I recently discovered as well). The result of this will be further improved speed stability and even better sound. We also discovered that the Concerto was MUCH happier in his system on the JMW tonearm than on the SME IV tonearm, which was killing the highs (this may be due to the complex wiring arrangement for the SME, as his preamp accepts only balanced Neutrik connectors, which necessitated complex connections, some of them plain cheap and bad (no way to find special female RCAs for cable termination). This in turn meant: SME tonearm cable to cheap female RCAs, in turn soldered to three-conductor balanced cable to Neutrik. Perhaps the changeover too from SME cable to Cardas via the cheap RCA created a high-frequency barrier. Or the JMW is quite simply the better tonearm ;-) (in my system however, the SME was superior, but this with the cable direct to preamp). The cable I made for the JMW, however, goes direct from the RCAs at one end to the Neutrik at the other. Incredible that Rick lets me take care of these various issues and come back with a fresh Lenco next week! In the interim, while the Lenco is still more powerful and "musical" (in terms of dynamics/punchiness, gestalt and PRaT) - which some dismiss as a colouration/distortion and so of no consequence and in fact a negative (I believe that PRaT and gestalt, the sense of all the musicians being on the same page rhyhmically, IS viable, neutral information, and that this information is far better conveyed by the Lenco/idlers, than by even the mighty SME or any belt-drive, due to the differing drive systems); and some don't question as anything other than musicality and so viable and acceptable "information" (so overall in terms of witnesses we have a bit of a draw) - it was discovered that the Benz LP improved quite a lot when loaded at 47K (while the Concerto barely changed...again might be due to the complex cabling), and a change in VTA made it even better, so it was time to attend to properly setting up the fab Clearaudio Concerto and recover its quickly fading high frequencies (in relative comparison), which is simply THE most musical cartridge I've ever heard (and it's a high-end MC!), and in terms of the usual audiophile area stupendous. More next week when all is attended to!

And speaking of blogs, I AM working on setting up my own website, where I will continue my Rants into the Void, at some point this summer, and continue to report on and share various experiments with various 'tables and other equipment, and more Idler Conquests, Conversions and Competitions! The Firewall will be provided by Raid ;-). Have fun all!!