Had the opportunity to attend the launch event of the Borresen X1 loudspeakers last night in Chicago @nextlevelhifiwith @jays_audio_lab. From their M6 at $550k per pair all the way down to the newly launched X1 speakers last night at $5500 your ears will smile. Amazing what a 4.5” driver can do. If you are in the market for any price range speaker about $5,000 and up you have to hear these. Imaging is 3 dimensional, larger than life soundstage and just absolutely stunning performance with a look that will fit any room. This manufacturer out of Denmark really gets it and I don’t care what price point you are looking at these speakers will out perform speakers double the price. If you are buying speakers up to $25k you have to hear their $11k option. The rep for Borresen is hitting all the shows/events over the next several months in the US. Oh, and by the way, I loved the X1 so much I bought the first pair that will ship to me in early March!
Great looking speaker, I heard the Raidho’s and owned some Scansonics, great sound but a touch bright for me. The new shinny coin syndrome and hype have set in, which can make things difficult to choose any speaker. The best way to make any decision before you go all in and bash a speaker you haven’t heard, is order a go listen to a pair if you can, or order a pair. <<< Much easier to do at this price point. Common sense always wins in my book, so I ordered a pair, and if I don’t like them I will just sell them.. I think these speakers could fall in the category of value, quality = spectacular sound. (Time will tell) Heck even the new Magnepan LRS+ are remarkable for what they do at $1300 with risers.
mbmi: 12 speakers? Which brands? Heck I thought I was a speaker whore, with 4 speakers and soon to be 5 (X1)... Another monitor I have and love is the Audio Physic Spark, very, very good. Subjective hobby, and enjoy what you have!
@gandalf .... Heresy IV's...Dahlquist 905's....Triangle Celius ES....JBL Studio 590 (great Rock speaker)....JBL Studio 390 (small tower)...Caintuck open baffle w/ LII-15 drivers...Jensen C-1's....Quad 21-L's....Alon ( Nola) Lotus Elite.....Mirage M-490's...Teckton Pendragon's ( love 'em)..Maggie LRS w/ risers.+ The Borresen X-3's....OH , and a pair of LS3/5a's....any takers....My bedroom looks like a Speaker Shop.
@riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook OMG....I’m going on Audiogon today and I’m buyin’ 4 more pair just so I can claim back the title and lay waste to the competition.....there’s always a wise guy! LOL.....now YOU name what you got!
@mbmi Think they're in my profile. Will be checkin out the Borreson 1's and JBL 4312G's (Ghost) for my Vintage system. Luckily I have a Borreson dealer about an hour away from me near Allentown, PA. Looks like he sells out of his house.
Cube Audio Nenuphar Mini
Fleetwood Deville
Volti Razz - 2 Pairs
Klipsch Cornwall IV
Audio Solutions Figaro M
Harbeth SHL5+
Harbeth C7 XD
Harbeth P3 XD
Omega Compact 8
Triangle Comete 40th - 2 Pairs
Rosso Fiorentino Certaldo 2
Graham Ls 3/5A
Rogers LS 3/5A SE
LOL, and I thought I had a problem! Well, I usually try and buy since there is very little dealers left near me. I do go to shows still when I can, now I rotate speakers as I don't have the room for collecting, but have had 100's of different brands at one point. Dynaudio's has been a constant along with Magnepan and a few others.
mbmi: My addiction started in college, roommate hate killer system, then failed out of school, so I went and worked for a record/CD store then a High End HiFi store. Started off with Vector Research boombox then Kenwood Stereo which I still have then it escalated after College.
I also worked in a record store before cd's....Best days man....I love audiophilia...between work and this hobby...I'm lovin' life....MUSIC IS LIFE !!!!
I believe that todays high-end speakers are grossly overpriced in general and especially Borresen's upper tier speakers. Although I do believe that Borresen's entry level line of speakers do represent great value for the money. Borresen does make great sounding speakers, no doubt.
I listened to the X2's at FLAX last weekend and thought they sounded quite good. It would have been nice to listen to some music other than demo stuff at warp factor 12. According to the rep they are made all in house, drivers and all. I felt the tweeters, some sort of ribbon or electrostatic, was the real star.
sweet system. Tube and solid state. Congrats again. It takes a long time to put together a system that synergizes no matter how good the equipment is.
Now to find some new music to listen to!!
I believe that todays high-end speakers are grossly overpriced in general and especially Borresen's upper tier speakers. Although I do believe that Borresen's entry level line of speakers do represent great value for the money. Borresen does make great sounding speakers, no doubt.
Borresen's 100k bookshelf speaker and above are for guys who won't even look at a product unless it's priced 100k and above (i.e., market positioning, it doesn't have much to do with how it sounds). For guys who go for sonics on a realistic budget, he trickled it down at $5.5k and above. Michael Borresen could be Andrew Jones' cousin in that regard.
For example, Andrew Jones designed the TAD reference. Same guy released the Pioneer S1-EX (10k ish) and the large Elac Adante floorstander. Guys who have owned both would know what trickle down is all about if they put the $$$$$$ speaker and the $$$$ on high caliber electronics, i.e., gave the affordable speaker a fair chance (because the ethos applied by the engineer is the same).
@deep_333My neighbor has a cat, which is equally as relevant as the speakers you've owned. I'm not a Borresen fan or foe, never heard them or seen them. The gentleman who started this thread and many others like what they heard...
I am, however, really keen on intelligent discourse and many here have grown weary of those who post about "dumb rich guys" who "buy big ticket items" to "impress others". As if they lose their hearing and common sense as their wealth increases.
Exactly no one is impressed, even if they are audiophiles.
There's a little truth to both. Not everyone who buys expensive stuff is lacking sense but I definitely know people who consider more expensive to be more desirable even when told otherwise.
First, I think Audio Group Denmark website (Borresen) is designed to be hard to navigate (when you want to find each model/product/specs). Is a contrarian play when everyone else is trying to make their website as easy to navigate as possible, hoping people become more obsessed to find more info on Borresen model which normally lead to the Borresen dealer website. This website won’t work for normal mass market product, but Borresen knew their target market is NOT normal people.
Second, I had been out of audio game for many years, then when I talked to an audio shop that I just start relation with (purchasing from this shop),... he enthusiastically recommend Borresen as the next line he will represent. From the start, he pointed out the most expensive model is half a million dollar.
Normally I do believe the more expensive thing is, usually the better it is, but that was when the world was normal. I try to always think as an engineer first and audiophile second. Despite all the technical advantage listed on Borresen website, I don’t think it will justify pricing the price of half a million dollar, unless if you price it for EXCLUSIVITY.
Third, a multi 4.5in woofer might give good bass along with good ported design, but it will always be at a disadvantage related to area of the speaker that move the air to make the sound. However, I noticed, more and more people now said, no matter how good your main speaker are, you still need a subwoofer... Well, yes adding a turbo to an engine will normally increase it’s output... but I almost feel like we are fallen to the "clever manufacturer strategy"...
I mean buying an extra subwoofer will of course... make more money to the manufacturer then just selling you a main speaker...
One of the earlier poster here make the best comparison using the price of Rolls Royce Phantom... I mean Rolls Royce Phantom is a car... this half million dollar speaker is just... a pair of speaker...
Everyone here said, but these speaker sounds better than other speakers I heard etc... But,... can you quantify them with a scoring standard... I mean with a car... you can compare maybe their noise level, or their 0 to 60 time or their top speed or their laptime... it can be quantify, ... but speaker?
I have a second dealer (who I also bought things from) that offering me Borresen speaker, and I must say his team is very enthusiastic and passionate when they explain to me how good the Borresen is...
I am also happened to be in Sales (selling highly engineered industrial equipment)... so I can smell the super high margin behind this "enthusiasm and passion".... 80% margin could just do it...
Normally, I won’t believe there is 80% margin in selling speakers... but I just got offered a 65% discount for one of the Raidho from my second dealer... so... I now believe 80% margin is possible. This is really clever marketing... Jack Up the price so high to create publicity (because no publicity is bad publicity)... Give the dealer the dream of making 80% margin (and sometimes they are lucky and score 80% margin)... make the dealer super enthusiastic and passionate to spread the word... and soon you are gone viral, which is the best time to offer your "trickle down" model that have more "normal" pricing.
I have no doubt Borresen loudspeaker sounds good. This is not about how good the sound is.
And don’t get me wrong, I am still going to buy things that I like eventhough I know it is overpriced..., maybe just because I like the sound, or I like the looks, or both, or maybe because I just want some finer things in life...
But not at half a million dollar price for a speaker no matter how good they are...
Don’t you guys feel that they are insulting your intelligence and robbing you?
@ghasley your response to me is exactly what all those over priced speaker manufacturer try to "program" us to think. That there is always someone richer than you willing to spend this kind of money, so you better feel lucky that you can afford a "trickle down" version.
This $500k pricing is not really about targeting the right market, but how to get noticed, QUICKLY.
They are creating a "HALO" product, to quickly get noticed by the entire market.
In this era, the more sensational you are, the faster the market recognized you.
Once recognized, then they can start the meaningful sales with the so called "trickle down technology, more affordable model".
But if they start with the "affordable model", nobody will notice, since there are already way too many new boutique high end speaker manufacturer. If no one notice, then... well they will die before they flourish...
I don’t know how you feel, but if you know that someone about to sell you something with 80% mark up... do you still feel good buying it?
not to mention, you are just a pawn, part of the scheme so they can become sensational and get noticed...
Well... I guess for some people, it’s worth it to be robbed, as long as they also can gain entry to the "sensational club"
I can afford buying $500k worth of fine items, I just refused to be rob.
I don’t know how you feel, but if you know that someone about to sell you something with 80% mark up... do you still feel good buying it?
If I like something and I feel it is worth it to me then I dont particularly care what someone’s margin may or may not be. My time is too precious to worry about those things in the world that are out of my control. I’m not a Borresen customer nor apologist. The only cure for high prices are high prices…they will either sell some or they wont, why get yourself into a lather about it?
not to mention, you are just a pawn so they can get be sensational and get noticed...
While I dont particularly agree with your assessment that I am a pawn for Borresen or any other manufacturer, if I am, they have sure misplayed their chess board. I’m sure Borresen and Ansuz and the rest of the Audio Group Denmark corporate efforts will be fine, it won’t be because of my patronage. I’m sure its fine gear, its just not my thing any more than McIntosh or Focal is.
Well... I guess for some people, it’s worth it to be robbed, as long as they also can gain entry to the "sensational club"
I can afford buying $500k worth of fine items, I just refused to be rob.
High end audio is a niche, its fun but it isnt particulary lucrative from a business standpoint. Perhaps those speakers are terrific or perhaps they aren’t…neither you nor I know because neither one of us has heard them. If you are so fearful of being robbed, it might be great to speak to a professional. I don’t recall ever being fearful in a hifi shop.
I don’t know what to say, but if you don’t care that you are about to pay 80% margin, when you know that the tangible cost of the item is far far less, then the asking price... then I know, you need to have a session (or multiple sessions) with both financial and mental professional. 🤣
I am not fearful of spending, and not fearful of being robbed because real robbery is illegal, so there is consequences for real robber.
But if I know for sure I am going to get legally robbed at a hifi shop, and still willing, even asking to be legally robbed anyway... well...
@bmwalpinayou seem to be missing the subtle nuances. Intelligent people of means simply don’t buy what doesn’t make sense from their particular value judgement. I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t buy anything, no one is. I AM EMPHATICALLY saying that you should not impose your value judgement on others. You buy alot of things every day that have high margins, all of us do. Ultra expensive Hifi isn’t a heart/lung machine…it isnt required to sustain life and there are plenty of substitute products in Hifi that can bring the listener joy. Buy what you want, or don’t…but your outrage over them building an uber expensive item is misplaced. Alot of people wont buy them but some may. Good for them.
And…how can you be legally robbed in a volutary transaction? Unless there is fraud or misrepresentation it can’t happen. You either like what you hear or you don’t.
You seemed to focus on semantics here and really missing both the subtle and non subtle nuances 😀
Here are the things that people should focus:
a. 80% margin
b. 4.5" woofer
c. Brand that is new and have not proven itself in long term service/support, or even ability to stay in business
d. Spare parts availability in the next few years (yes, drivers can break down too), especially with the claimed exotic materials that not widely used by any other speaker manufacturer.
e. Resale Value (yes, sometimes in life, you might fall down and need to sell a things or two to survive, and resale value for something as expensive as $500k is also a consideration)
f. $500k pricing is actually slightly more than a Rolls Royce Phantom (please do not use the cliche reasoning that a Rolls Royce Phantom buyer is not the potential buyer of $500k speaker)
There might be more... but I can see that the things that concern you most is when I say the 80% margin... I guess... that is the thing that can be the aha/enlightening moment for many people huh? 😉
I am NOT imposing my judgement on others but this is an open forum where many people with differing opinion can state their opinion (in a civil manner and not against forum rules).
I am also not outrage, but simply stating my reasoning on why Borressen decide to price their system at that super high price. Manufacturer can price their equipment at whatever price they want, but everyone is free to comment on whether they think the pricing make sense, or there are some other reasons behind it.
My first post is more about why Borressen decided to priced their top of the line at $500k. It’s the reasoning behind the pricing, but you seemed to be outrage with my reasonings. Why?
Like you said, intelligent people will have their own intelligent reason to buy or not to buy a $500k speaker, so why you are so... "passionate" about my opinion? You don’t think my opinion will sway intelligent people one way or another, do you?
Do you think intelligent people can benefit from discovering about this "marketing scheme" of HALO unit pricing?
While, this is a free country, everyone can buy or price what ever legal things they want.
This is also a free country, so you also need to be prepared when someone else have differing opinion than you. I already stated, that I agree with you that we have to disagree on this. Can we agree on that? Or do you still have to IMPOSE your value judgement on others? 😉
Legally robbed is another semantic. But if you know in ADVANCE, you are about to buy a speaker that have 80% profit margin build in, ...
Are you still eager to buy it...?
Perhaps for you that means nothing... because you gladly pay 80% margin... right? Are you sure, you are eager and glad to pay 80% margin @ghasley ? Come on be honest with at least your self hahaha.
If the answer still yes, GOOD FOR YOU 🤣 but for me, you are being LEGALLY ROBBED.
In the end, I believe I stated all my points and just happy that I can finally understand why Borressen priced their speaker at $500k. It was a puzzle to me until today when I read the comparison with Rolls Royce Phantom pricing and when I heard about 80% discount and the 65% discount offered to me for Raidho. Now everything makes clear sense to me. Yes, it finally make sense to me.
It might never make sense to you... but I am not going to try convincing you otherwise. This will be my last response to you (or other) in this thread about Boressen pricing. I will let you (or some others) have the last word on this if that means you can sway the opinion the other way and important for you 😁
The dealer offered me this discount in one of my private email exhange after I buy an equipment from him, and after I asked him a question about another brand of speaker that he also represent. However, he note on the email, that this is a private offer to me, so I don't want to disclose the dealer.
Beside the model he offered me, might not be the Raidho model that you are looking to purchase. Having said that, there are not many Raidho dealers in the US. So it won't be too time consuming for you to reach out to all of them in just 1 hour of total time (calling or emailing).
There are only a few things Id like to point out….you havent got any idea what the speakers sound like nor do you have any idea what the speakers cost to produce nor their margins. Yet, you opine that they are “legal robbery” with a mic drop? Whatever.
What if the margin was 70%? 60%? 50%? Since you dont know its as likely as your 80% guess. Sales and marketing is an important role, however, there are alot more good salesmen than good speaker designers. You make it sound easy and reasonable people can agree to disagree.
I’m not in the market for a Phantom either as they are fugly. Your guesstimated breakdown has nothing to do with what is inside the speaker, the parts, etc. Once again, I’m not defending the speaker in sound or cost but I am not going to make a value argument without any clue…
I try to always think as an engineer first and audiophile second. Despite all the technical advantage listed on Borresen website, I don’t think it will justify pricing the price of half a million dollar, unless if you price it for EXCLUSIVITY.
@bmwalpina, Don't waste your breath. This forum is the biggest repository of dealers and other vested financial interests (the truth is well known, but, it shall never be spoken for the same reason). Funny enough, the guys who actually buy some of this stuff, i.e., i roll with a few of them and they sure as heck don't show up on these "sales networks". They just buy things because they can and it doesn't have anything to do with these sales guys. The latter just happens to blow a lot of hot air here because it makes them feel real special.
"(IM me if you want the scoop)" Oh yeah, you really have the inside info that no one else dares to speak of. The not so glamorous truth is that there are a number of music loving members here who were smart and worked hard for their money who go to audio shows on a regular basis and have bought Borrenson speakers because they actually like the way they sound!
As an aside… i’ve heard a pair of the subject speakers… mid teen $ smallish floorstanders at Alma Audio here in paradise…. they were impressively good..
Congrats to woots on your new purchase and I know you will enjoy them! Do be prepared for a long, long break-in but it is well worth it. Things just get better. It took 400 plus for my (now gone) Borressen-designed Scansonic MB-2.5 small floor-standers. Also kudos to mbmi, ondu, fpreix, cheche9, ronboco (I love Rockports too!) and others who own Borresen products.
Most all of the other folks merely seem to have an ax to grind, especially those who’ve never heard the product, and two one-trick-ponies who are recently complaining. A lot of hijacking and complaining and why?
Jeff Rowland used Borressen designed Raidho D1 speakers for live demos so they were good enough, and maybe not so lacking in bass, etc, etc. I heard them many years at RMAF (and in many other rooms) and was always stunned by the sound. But they are very expensive, although for many, certainly worth it.
Ultimately, hearing D1s in my home convinced me to acquire a pair of mint-condition Raidho D2 small floor-standers (in the beautiful burl finish, just lucky about that part). Tyler at Next Level gets a huge shout-out of appreciation from me. He was responsible. I could never have afforded to purchase them new, like most.
All Michael’s designs have been steps up in improvement, perhaps worth it if you are an early adopter (can afford to buy new). Borressen’s Raidho designs go back ten years and are still world classs and superb-sounding. I’ve heard the original Borressen ‘B’ series speakers of Michael’s as well. He’s not moving backwards, but you pay.
The ‘lack of bass’ yakkers obviously have never heard the speakers. The D2s in-room go down to the low 30s cleanly in our 3500 cu.ft. room without subs, and with two large openings. I do use a DSPeaker Anti-Room Mode 2.0 to remove a (built-in IMHO) bass hump circa 80-160Hz or so (but never to add bass). I do use two good REL subs passed at 30Hz with low volume for ultra-low bass (mostly unheard, except for ‘air’ effect).
The D2 sealed ribbon tweeter bested the Dynaudio Esotar 2 (in my, now gone, Sapphires) by a large margin. It is the most detailed and purest without ever ‘hurting’. With a pair of Odyssey Audio Kismet mono-blocks powering the D2s the music is in the room, with deep solid bass, clear highs, and pure detailed musical sound.
A true ‘system’ is built to be cohesive and components matter. I argue to upgrade electronics (over time) around your ‘keeper’ speaker. Building a a high-end system around Borressen speakers is a great start in my opinion. Best! And ultimately, the music is king!
(And maybe you folks who have never, ever, heard them could stop arguing only your 'opinions'; without facts, you just sound foolish.)
Having heard Borresen and Raidho’s, I think these speakers are exceptionally good. If one is concerned about ’value’ then it is probably best to not really shop high end gear these days...particularly new gear.
The market for ultra high end is either there, or it is not. The fact that the dealers and manufacturer’s are pushing prices ever higher, would seem to indicate that the market is there. Now the question I have is this....how high is too high? IOW, when we start seeing a pricing structure of gear that equivalents to the purchase of a nice home in most parts of the country, does that illicit push back from the consumers?? So far, it does not seem to be the case...BUT we haven’t seen multi million dollar price tags on numerous speakers and amps, etc,.. yet! I question why?
I've heard the Borreson Z2s briefly, being driven by a ARC Ref6SE and Boulder power amp being fed by the cheapest Aurender streamer (N200?). And it IMO sounded very good with pin point imaging and wide soundstaging. The dealer demoing them was not too impressed by the finish of the cabinets which were easily marred with finger prints.
I also think the AGD website is woeful - very difficult to navigate and find out about their products. They should fire their webpage developer.
...and this only for the need of clarity...I assume you are referring to the Audio Group Denmark website, right?
In all honesty it will be quite challenging from our side (AGD Productions, Inc) asking for the termination of a very...very close member of the family (meaning my family) ...hope you understand of course.... ;)
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