Not a fan of spikes. Prefer isolation pads when needed. Auralex Subdude does the job period. Not expensive, but effective and versatile. I’m sure there are other ways. YMMV. Isolation is one area where if it works in a studio it will work at home. I am also an Isoacoustics fan and use those as well. That’s not to say that the home audio high end vendors will not find a way to convince some people they need more, sell junked bed springs for a hefty profit, etc.
Biggest audio hoaxes
Often when people discuss audio, they talk about "snake oil" or "hoaxes."
It's pretty typical to use the term hoax as a tactic against another who disagrees with one, or holds an unusual opinion or vouches for something which has not been verified. That's not what I mean by a "hoax."
By "hoax" I mean an audio product or claim which has been pretty definitively disproved. Maybe not to everyone's satisfaction, but to common consensus.
So -- with that definition of hoax in mind, what are some of the biggest audiophile hoaxes you've heard of?
It's pretty typical to use the term hoax as a tactic against another who disagrees with one, or holds an unusual opinion or vouches for something which has not been verified. That's not what I mean by a "hoax."
By "hoax" I mean an audio product or claim which has been pretty definitively disproved. Maybe not to everyone's satisfaction, but to common consensus.
So -- with that definition of hoax in mind, what are some of the biggest audiophile hoaxes you've heard of?
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I've worked as a mechanic a LOG time. Vibration and harmonics GROW if it's not treated with concrete over soil. Two fold over time as things dry more and more between the soil and the concrete. There is a gap that forms between the two materials. One is solidified (concrete) one is not (soil). They are NOT bound one to the other, when the concrete is poured. IF you were lucky the guys that poured the slabs compacted the ground or it's poured on a big ol ROCK. ALL slabs on SOIL get noisier over time, to a point. The way to stop it is to pour friction piers on centers underneath the slab. A pre slab pour or monolithic makes no difference. One the slab is independent of the piers one they are tied together via mechanically (rebar ties). Most residential is a 3 1/2" slab. BOUNCING on top of the spring like soil it's VERY NOISY but worst of all the harmonics BUILD as the room loads. It get worse and decay rates go through the roof.. Ricochet Biscuit, come to mind.. DECOUPLE.. and dampen everything you can from vibration. Spikes DO NOT work they are not a hoax they just don't work as advertised. Dense (normally heaver) cabinet materials work better also, TO a point. We always isolate or it will deteriorate. In this case SQ. You won't notice it UNTIL you clean it up.. SPIKES are an expensive thing for sure. |
I run my speakers on both concrete foundation in finished room with thin dense carpet and pad and others. No isolation needed below speakers or sub in the room at foundation level. Others yes. My sub and speakers even face the turntable within several feet and no problem. I have an Auralex Subdude I bought for the sub in another room so I use it but not really needed. Detail soundstage and imaging to the nth degree. No mud or haze. It’s a ideal setup from a vibration perspective. First time ever for me. So I am going to disagree with MC on this. No need to add any isolation much less expensive options. Ymmv but a waste of money in my opinion. Of course neither is it likely to hurt if designed to do its job well so no harm likely either other than to bank account. Also the speakers appear to wobble on the Townsend stands in the video. Are they supposed to do that? That’s different and would definitely impact the sound not necessarily for the better overall I would expect. |
hilde45- @bdp24 Are the Townshend products very helpful even for those of us with concrete floors covered with a short rug? My floor feels very stable, and while I respect the idea of vibration control enough to try it, I wonder if my rig is very susceptible to the kinds of vibrations these products help to mitigate? Concrete is just as "susceptible" as you put it. Yes even slab concrete poured on the ground. I lived in a basement like that, it was very easy to feel vibrations from one person in one room coming through the floor right under the wall into my room. If I can feel and hear it then for sure it affects the sound when amplified a hundred times. Think of the old-times movie trick of the train robber putting his ear to the track. This works because sound travels through even something as solid as 6" thick solid steel. You play your speaker, it sets the concrete to vibrate, it rings, and yes it settles down very fast but for that small fraction of a second until it does it is smearing fine detail. Here, watch https://youtu.be/BOPXJDdwtk4?t=120 Solid concrete floor. See? |
Fuses for one that cost Like $2500, and way way too much emphasis on room treatment crap to excess. You know, flying saucers on the ceiling, and weird azz stuff hanging from walls and In corners and behind speakers and between speakers and behind you and what your sitting on and of course, you must absolutely not have a coffee table or god forbid a picture frame with glass! Oh my, a TV or an equipment rack between the speakers!....I don’t know what world some of you live in, but it ain’t mine....you must have a wonderful marriage....I could go on & on but I’ll spare ya all...oh wait, we must not forget to mention those potential seismic good vibrations...everthing should be mounted on a slinky!!! Pronto! Asap! Oh crap, almost forgot, shut off those breakers to the fridge and the ac when you are intently listening, and then forget to turn em back on....😜 |
+2 djones51. There is definitely a concerted effort to spread false information. It is similar to other industries which have been repeatedly debunked, but they still continue, many whose sales far exceed this little corner of the debunked world. Similarly, though, those that should be most upset are the biggest proponents. Is this a misery loves company thing or an anti-authority thing ******************* It is not a fraud, deception, or hoax to challenge, question, or refute ******************* If you had stopped there, the overall validity of the post went way up. ******************* arafiq682 posts05-18-2021 3:36pmBiggest hoax >> ’wife who pokes her head into your listening room and proclaims she hears a difference when you have recently (unbeknownst to her) acquired some new component’. ^^^^^^^^ Today's winner ^^^^^^^^^^^ |
djones51" think one of the worst hoaxes in audio has been the attacks and disinformation on ABX and Other forms of blind testing ." It is not a fraud, deception, or hoax to challenge, question, or refute the faults and limitations of the various forms of blind testing including abx part of the problem is that what many consider hear to be a blind test may be blind but they are not scientific because they leave other variables without proper, appropriate, and necessary controls. The real issue for some here is that the "blind test" is part of their fundamentalist core belief system as has been noted by various other users, contributors, and writers to this forum and when you have blind faith in any entity you cannot accept criticism, fault finding or doubt directed, attached, or aimed at the fundamentalist belief itself it is immune from questioning. |
Biggest hoax >> ’wife who pokes her head into your listening room and proclaims she hears a difference when you have recently (unbeknownst to her) acquired some new component’. You know she’s pulling wool over your head. No way in hell any wife, no matter what you say, can tell a turtle from a speaker. If she tells you otherwise, figure out the ulterior motive pronto. I would much rather prefer my wife cheats on me instead of playing with my emotions like this. |
As I mentioned earlier I think one of the worst hoaxes in audio has been the attacks and disinformation on ABX and Other forms of blind testing . In the scientific community it meets the level of common consensus as part of the scientific method. Audiophiles act as if it's voodoo. Maybe not to everyone's satisfaction, but to common consensus. |
sugabooger" Why are you not suggesting class action lawsuits for the other hoaxes mentioned." You might want to check your facts, information, and data because the evidence is clear, abundant, and overwhelming that user "cleeds" has repeatedly, frequently, and consistently called out users alleging hoax, fraud, and deception and asked why they were not pursuing legal remedies that are abundantly available in the US to extract refund, compensation, and reimbursement for losses, damages, and injury caused, created, and/or the consequence of what some hear call audio "hoaxes." Because you have now joined the community alleging fraud it does seem fair to inquire of you directly as to why you would not pursue the proper, proscribed, and appropriate legal remedies. |
sugabooger ... it is a wonderful hoax played on willing audiophiles, the whole concept of 100’s of hours of burn in, especially on cables. All the suppliers are in on it and there is 0 benefit to them to admit it is a hoax ...Wow - a "wonderful hoax"! Why don’t you file a perfect class action lawsuit and put this "wonderful hoax" to rest for once and for all? Beware the audio guru. |
I am with stargazer3. With the exception of speakers, and even then it is exaggerated, it is a wonderful hoax played on willing audiophiles, the whole concept of 100's of hours of burn in, especially on cables. All the suppliers are in on it and there is 0 benefit to them to admit it is a hoax. They will even charge you a premium to do it for you. |
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Burning in of components (over extended periods) seems to divide opinions. Usually the people who hold the opinion that burning in of components is all nonsense or psychology at work. Often they will quote measurements and basic principles how the component is put together and that there is no scientific proof whatsoever to give grounds for 'change or improvement in sound'. Manufacturer's who advise burning in periods for their components is treated with total scepticism holding the view they would say that so that the new purchaser would have time to get used to the new sound, so they view this advice as a hoax and in a way a sellers trick...... |
sugabooger Bose noise canceling headphones ... the R&D was paid for by you, the US taxpayer, to the tune of over $100 M dollars. Bose received a DoD contract to develop noise canceling technology, and after failing to deliver any usable device or technology the DoD pulled the plug. The $100M written off ... I think we found what the hoax is here. p.s. They employ 9,000 people and have sales of $3.5-4 billion.Do have have any documentation of this "hoax"? |
hilde45 OP1,954 posts05-18-2021 7:06amI would love to have some kind of noise cancelling system for a listening room. A bit pie in the sky, but people have spent a lot for what seems a lot less plausible. ******************************************* Not that we got it to work very well, but I have my name on a patent for an outdoor noise cancelling system for road noise. |
#2 are Bose noise canceling headphones. In this case it’s not that the technolgy doesn’t work, it does, but that the R&D was paid for by you, the US taxpayer, to the tune of over $100 M dollars. Bose received a DoD contract to develop noise canceling technology, and after failing to deliver any usable device or technology the DoD pulled the plug. The $100M written off. ************************************** Bose released their first noise cancelling aviation headset in 1989. They started selling headsets to the military in 1993. Selling them, not starting R&D, but selling. The military started ordering an improved version in 1997. Consumer noise cancelling by Bose was released in 2000. I think we found what the hoax is here. p.s. They employ 9,000 people and have sales of $3.5-4 billion. How much corporate, sales and income tax does that represent? |
I would love to have some kind of noise cancelling system for a listening room. A bit pie in the sky, but people have spent a lot for what seems a lot less plausible. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sound-cancelling-speakers-in-bedroom-for-traffic/ |
All those scams pale in comparison with by far with the two greatest perpetrated by Bose. #1 is the Bose 901 direct/ reflecting bogosity, all versions. #2 are Bose noise canceling headphones. In this case it's not that the technolgy doesn't work, it does, but that the R&D was paid for by you, the US taxpayer, to the tune of over $100 M dollars. Bose received a DoD contract to develop noise canceling technology, and after failing to deliver any usable device or technology the DoD pulled the plug. The $100M written off. Years later, a new engineer happened across the basic research, took on the project anew, and the Bose noise canceling headphones were shortly on the market, based on the original taxpayer funded research. Bose has never reimbursed the government a single dime. Your tax dollars at work. |
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"Geoffkait, can you please explain how the super stiff springs can effectively prevent taps, bumps, and vibrations from subwoofer?" "The subwoofer puts out what maybe 20Hz if you’re lucky. So the iso system doesn’t actually have to be too heroic for subwoofers. The resonant frequency of the iso system for the sub would only have to be what about 8 or 10 Hz to be effective at 20Hz and above? The idea of course is to prevent subwoofer cabinet resonance to feed back to the rest of the system via the floor. The Super Stiff Springs will provide between 2 and 4 Hz resonant frequency for the isolating system depending on total mass on springs. So, let’s say your subwoofer weighs 100 lbs. For the lowest resonant frequency of the system you would use three Super Stiff Springs but since the subwoofer’s lowest frequencies aren’t really an issue - as they are for components when seismic vibrations are involved - four springs are recommended under the subwoofer for stability. You still have to isolate the rest of the components from seismic, subways, footfall and tap, i.e., all sources of structureborne vibration. But by isolating the sub you eliminate one big contributor to structural vibration in the room." "If anyone can find even one coherent post about springs from the loon please do, and I will promptly eat my hat." Anyone reading what geoffkait wrote find it incoherent? While you're eating your hat, it may taste better with a big side of crow. |
Probably not in context with the entire thread but thanks to some of our regulars I picked up a set of Nobsound Springs. Initially tried under sub, and now my CD 6006 Marantz. Improved clarity of voices, instruments, soundstage. Will be getting some more! Would try Townsends but too much for me to swing as just ramped up what I have over last 3 years.... |
no romance- In fairness, MC walks the walk and don’t forget, we all stand on the shoulders of others. That’s for sure. Which is why I credited Rixthetrick for helping me with springs. Truth is, and this is on the record, the minute the first person came along with a coherent argument I not only listened but was persuaded and in not time flat was adopting. Of course he did have to actually explain himself, and not with incessant smart alecky jokes and riddles but actual structured argument. If anyone can find even one coherent post about springs from the loon please do, and I will promptly eat my hat. https://youtu.be/q-6w8nZ-0sk?t=27 |
