Better Sounding Systems, Objectivists or Subjectivists?
When these two camps retire to their listening rooms, which school of thought tends to get better sound? Those who ultimately place their faith in measurements above actually listening to their systems? Or those of us who look at measurements, but ultimately make our decisions based on what subjectively sounds best to us?
Pretty simple - does it sound better to me? When I replace something or add something in my system, does it sound better (I know, crude description). The better sellers will let you return it if you don't like it. I'll normally get the opinion of whoever is selling it if it should be a good fit with my system before trying it. If they don't offer a money back guarantee, I will listen to it in their store changing out only the component in question on a similar quality system to mine. Then if I don't think it is better they get mad.
If you don't listen to it, shame on you for treating it like specs for buying a computer server.
I have heard of people who buy cars without driving them first and it makes we want to vomit. The exception is car collectors who don't drive them - they are more like investors or art collectors, and if that is what you are into, that's fine. I prefer the stock market. Long term - not day trading.
I once had the pleasure of listening to a sound system that this measurements guy had been hyping up like no tomorrow, a system with these new fancy electronics, a crossover system that had over 60 different drivers. Total cost 70,000 dollars...
He pressed play, and I had to do a quick turnaround to see if there were any cameras filming us, and if this was an episode of Punked, if Ashton Kutcher was going to come running out of the closet.
This system was the most distorted, garbled, piece of crap I have ever heard, I could hear every single one of these drivers, separately, distinctly, it had no coherence to speak of.
I walked away convinced that this guy was actually deaf.
He likes reviewing gear in his spare time, and has an online following......go figure.
i agree it's not a serious question--"better sound" is in the ear of the beholder regardless of how they arrive at it, but i would think whichever of them is stoned gets the "better sound"
The electricians are essential to our endeavors. Their input is incredibly valuable and important in the grand scheme. I just don't want them deciding what sound I like (or can't hear).
Someone may ask you just buy a vintage piece by existing 40 decades of reviews , but how to buy a contemporary amplifier?
Simple, same method to look for NEGATIVE reviews FIRST, after that correlating and sifting positive reviews...
But because the amplifier is contemporary i will add a feature that will separate it from all the others : S.Q/ price ratio coming from an INNOVATIVE technology and very important: an affordable price...
How many contemporary amplifiers had no negative review under 10,000 bucks and an innovative revolutionary mode of working?
I will not name it and being accused here of making hype publicity...
But i discovered one that will beat my 100 bucks Sansui and even the other more refined Sansui i had bought in my Sansui fever...
But think about a 100 bucks piece of gear upgraded by a 7,000 thousand dollars improvement...
Now the only measurement that count for me,save acoustic one, are the S.Q./price ratio....
«Even full working brain cannot replace common sense most of the time, ask Richard Feynman»-Anonymus Smith
Save elementary necessary one to link two components which will be compatible...
But matching compatible components by measurements specs. is NOT a factor playing a positive role in the act to BUY something... It is ONLY an important information about what you cannot buy because it did not match with what you already had...
Then chosing component with measurement specs is ridiculous...
There is so much components on the market, how do you buy an amplifier for example? For sure a compatible one with your speakers by their measured specs...
But even compatible amplifiers will be in the many hundreds among which you could make a choice...
How do you chose, especially if you cannot even hear them, and anyway an amplifier will sound differently in different rooms, with different speakers for different ears...
Then how to chose?
For me there is ONLY ONE WAY...
I chose my Sansui AU 7700 after reading ALL reviews and ALL posts in ALL audio thread for 6 months EACH day... It was a hobby obsession to pay the least possible for one of the best basic amplifier with NO negative reviews...
Complete succeess...
If i would have chosen my amplifier by measuring specs, this would have been probably a complete disaster or a deceptive choice...
Nothing replace studying through thousands of opinions through sifting analysis..
I do the same for my dac and speakers...
Before i did that kind of studies which take enormous amout of time, ALL my piece of gear were unsatisfying...
7 years after this 3 choices of dac, amplifier and speakers, i bend my mind in the only measurements that COUNT : acoustic and psycho acoustic... But i know that most people in audio had no clue about that, save AT BEST to buy costly panels and bass traps and they call that acoustic solutions... I renounced informing people about that, they are only interested by the costlier gear and their measured specs...without knowing that there exist only one necessary luxury device in audio: an acoustically dedicated room....
This is the reason why the majority of audiophiles are relatively in the upgrade game...At the mercy of the market conditioning...Snake oil are not where those who attack it think it is...Audio world is a mirror of the wide real world deceptions...
«I chose my girlfriends by "measurements" and my wife only by the sound of his voice»-Groucho Marx 🤓
I don't have any strong opinion here either 😂, but I tend to call them Measurement Morons. Using "objectivist" to describe them is way too flattering for these morons.
Objectivist in the audio world is currently just another word for moron.
Not that I have any strong opinion here.
I don't have any strong opinion here either 😂, but I tend to call them Measurement Morons. Using "objectivist" to describe them is way too flattering for these morons.
The “objectivists” use is a misnomer here. It suggests these “folks” have “all the facts”. They don’t. There are countless “measurements” missing that we don’t even know about. The joke forums like ASR are full of morons. I have challenged the few I have interacted with on if they have ever listened to high-end audio. Have never gotten an answer. Objectivist in the audio world is currently just another word for moron.
Not that I have any strong opinion here.
I have an Objectivists system with a Topping pre90, Topping D90SE DAC, and Benchmark AHB2. An ASR SINAD wet dream system. Though I got the system together from reading the much more reliable reviews from Sandu on Soundnews.net. The Benchmark LA4 preamp was once used in this system but now needed elsewhere.
I also have a Subjectivists (to me) system with the new KRELL / CODA amps and a CODA 07x preamp. I think it measures pretty good but it is more tube like than neutral.
Both systems are great and offer a nice change of pace.
lol, a very different type of ‘objectivist.’ In fact villains in an Ayn Rand novel are precisely the types we see here pontificating why certain things in our systems cannot possible work and for which they have little of no direct experience. Clever comment 😂
Some will demand an explanation of how something works before they are willing to try it, but, if it works (produces the desired results), no explanation is required for it to do so.
Demand? That's not nice, who likes demanding people? I show them my back.
Anyway, is there something, anything, implicit in this statement that there exists no possible explanation or reason available for producing the desired results?
The worst system is the one created by objectivist
Objectivist? This has nothing to do with a system. They typically don’t need any “system” to really be an expert. They just KNOW. You know, graphs is the Internet and such 😉
Some will demand an explanation of how something works before they are willing to try it, but, if it works (produces the desired results), no explanation is required for it to do so.
Psycho-acoustic is not subjectivist nor objectivist....
The better sounding system is always the best acoustically embedded one...
All the rest is upgrading marketing conditionment in all audio thread...
Timbre tonal playing microstructure EXPERIENCE is related to a specfic ears in a specific room...
Controlling the acoustical factors in relation to specific gear Is way more important than just using a tool to measure an amplifier quality or cherry pick amplifier by ears...The last two is not the end of the process, it is not even the beginning of the process...
Music listening is an esthetical and spiritual acoustically CONTROLLED experience in a room ...Like a musician controlling his playing body....
In the 2 cases timbre optimal perception is the key....
The worst system is the one created by objectivist, then less worst by subjectivist, the better one is created by an acoustician...
Well, now, if someone tells me, or a group of "certified audiophiles" tell me, to hop up and drop a big 'ol steamer on top of my amplifier - no, I'm not going to do it and listen (or challenge my other oganoleptic senses) to see if makes any difference in sound. Now, should they explain to me a plausible mechanism whereby their claimed "improvements" could be effectuated by said steamer...well, no, in this instance I still wouldn't care. Point being, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary (or jeez, at least Ordinary) evidence of a plausible mechanism.
It’s fine if someone chooses not to listen to something, because they “know” it can’t possibly make a difference in the sound, or for any other reason. In doing so, though, they give up the ability to make any credible observations about whether or not it makes an audible difference, or what the difference is.
Discovering which measurements are important, and in which order is a bit like getting a Rubik's Cube solved, it's no mistake when it's correct and can be repeated.
One of the main reasons I like reading many opinions of people who also enjoy our hobby, you just never know when they will share a bit of Golden knowledge that elevates your own, and in turn your system when implemented.
It is way to easy today for people to loose focus and get lost in their system to the point of no longer enjoying the music. For me it is a overweighted compromise or music first system second.
Who says ’objectivists’ don’t listen? As an electronics scientist I consider myself an ’objectivist’ in the sense that I’m not a ’believer’ in cryogenic treated fuses and super expensive cables that after a 100 hour run in time magically improve the sound. Passive components can only act as a filter. (Before someone says ’have you ever listened to them’ ... yes I have, and I did’t hear a difference. Which doesn’t mean to say no one can hear a difference, if you do and if it’s worth the money to you, that’s great.)
But that doesn’t mean I don’t listen to speakers, amplifier, source and room acoustics to decide which sound ’better’ ... with that I don’t rely on any measurements at all besides my own ears and my dB meter.
I like @mapman too....omni fans are hard to find, off enjoying the things. *L*
Objective is measured in plots and purpose, both good to have but only the point to make or jump from towards.
Subjectivity is what we experience and respond to; sometimes well, not hard to keep when discussing the same. It's hard to translate moments into meanings that can only hint at the subject....
My stuff ain't SOTA, but I don't let that stop me.
Nor I towards all y'all.*S*
@noske, yeah I learned that cringe from the Women in Black. Well-intentioned, no doubt.....like most things that revolve on being blind....
Harsh, perhaps...much like the candy-coated thing called 'history', lived through.
Why not use every tool you have. If a measurement is off it doesn't guarantee there's a bad result but it points to something to check. In the end the final decision is subjective. It's the only way to put all the data one has into one decision.
But perhaps most important is to understand yourself. There are factors that must be there for satisfaction. You need to learn what they are or without them you'll never be satisfied. There are factors that are intolerable. You also need to know and recognize what they are or even a system that sounds good at first will ultimately not satisfy. I suspect you can miss a plus or two. But one bothersome factor and the system is a goner.
Audiophile use every piece of data available, both objective and subjective. But most important - audiophile know thyself. and that may be the hardest but most important factor of all.
I have built two systems I enjoy very much. I built them to suit my ears,and I have never measured anything. (Other than speaker placement) I have employed some items that others scoff at. I’m good with that. I look at this hobby as a journey. Some want to take the Freeway,others want to stay out of traffic.
It’s the people that are willing to experiment and try things that assemble the best systems. They are not afraid of being wrong about something and are open to new ideas. Those are the people that push the hobby forward.
There are certain people that cannot be objective about what they see or hear. You can show them a red flag and they will say it’s blue. Nothing will convince them that the flag is red. There is no evidence they will accept. It’s the people that are willing to experiment and try things that assemble the best systems. They are not afraid of being wrong about something and are open to new ideas. Those are the people that push the hobby forward.
the funny thing is, objectivists don’t put systems together objectively. they just enjoy being contrary.
when tussling with an objectivist i often challenge them to describe in detail their process for system building, and then please list the gear and the process of decision making using measurements.
i get crickets. zero response. they never did it.
then i ask to just list one piece of gear and the decision process for the choice.
again....nothing. how can anyone take them seriously?
and btw; every step of my system building and decision making process is on my system page (or posted on various forums) for god and country to read. every subjectivist word. nothing hidden.
Never again assume that the "camps" to whom you refer are mutually exclusive.
Such a characterization of "camps" could be worse I suppose, though at the moment I am at a loss to say just how.
When these two camps retire to their listening rooms, which school of thought tends to get better sound? Those who ultimately place their faith in measurements above actually listening to their systems?
**** That’s the wrong question because they are likely to define "better" different….. ****
Agree.
****……The real question is "Which school of thought tends to be happier with their sound?" ****
Neither, I’ve met many from both camps who obsess over the “sound”. Happiest are those who only moderately care one way or the other and who listen for the musical content first and foremost.
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