Best sub for music,
I have buddy working on 60 inch woofer be power with 10 watt tube amp and hit hard like you mother wrap that guy in the head with monkey wrench when he try to take you daddy 76 caddy hub cap. Big time bass roll from this woofer shake you like I shake my wife sister after workout in my basement after rocking to my Maggie system. You no need big power with big tool. |
Having talked myself out of "no sub is the best sub' (based on multiple sub failures) I was willing to try again based on the sheer logic of roll off on Klipsch Lascala under 50 hz. (But what can possibly be added with such a low frequency?) A LOT or so I am hearing. I think my sub negativity was based on sloppy subs.
Velodyne, Boston Acoustics, Sunfire, all complete fails. Blobby, sloppy, intrusive, distracting, these sub par experiences turned me sour on the whole idea. Ladies and Gentlemen, I introduce you to SVS subs. Bought the sealed box SB-2000 pro thinking to probably upgrade with Crutchfield deal. Only $800. Crazy cheap, expected to be wasting my time. Hard to express how wrong i've been to avoid a quality subwoofer. Added super AC cord (helped alot!) |
I concur with MC and atmosphere, et al, that four subwoofers are the way to go. If you can drop $3k on a good sub, there are many modern mfrs that can sell you 4 subs at $750. When positioned properly, they will shock you with the far better sound you'll get in your room when compared to any other single sub. No kidding. |
@jheppe815 -- 18’s in a home? That seems illogical and nonsense. However, those cones simply don’t move at low to moderate levels. Again, goes back to what mijostyn states about low distortion levels when the cones (air pistons really) are not moving much. I have zero vent noise or chuffing. Again, being a sealed cabinet guy, I was quite hesitant on these cabinets but after implementation of the system, that large driver (and it’s construction) simply sounds good. At full tilt with the drivers reproducing frequencies in the 20’s, it’s scary as to how much fun it is. I have other systems in the house in smaller rooms with tiny cabinets (and one system with a tiny subwoofer) and 50 watts of power, but I hardly listen to them anymore due to just how much fun it is to listen to a large system with subs driven by big power in a big room. Welcome to the forum, and thanks for chiming in with your experience - the specifics or nature of which I find is sorely needed around this place. Practically it’s not about having too much bass/sub capacity (i.e.: displacement area) than it is typically having all too little and badly implemented at that. I can certainly vouch for the importance of headroom, in effect for reasons you and a few others have already pointed out, so "18’s in a home" would seem the logical choice that actually does make sense. I’ll probably get promptly booted out of here and banned for life for suggesting 18" JBL drivers on an audiophile forum, but just wanted to share my experiences and I’m having a ton of fun with this setup. ... Years ago I had my stare at a friend’s home set-up with twin EV TL880D ported cinema subs (2 x 18" per cab), not to mention their sonic impact both quantitatively and qualitatively. I’ve since gone on to acquire a pair of 15"-loaded horn-based subs instead, as I find their imprinting in the lowest octaves to be the most natural I’ve heard among any bass principles. They kick harder in the central to upper bass, even tuned as low as their direct radiating 18"-loaded EV counterparts, yet have a more "liquid," smooth and enveloping presentation. Few know of the sound of horn subs, let alone ones covering the "power region" - that’s a shame. |
@mijostyn -- I do not know where this differentiation between home theater subwoofers and HiFi subwoofers came from. There are good subwoofers and bad subwoofers. Perhaps home theater people tend to buy bad subwoofers. Good subwoofers will do anything. They are even better at doing theater than bad subwoofers. Much in agreement here. It is very hard to make an enclosure that works at a reasonable price not to mention terrible cross over strategies. Play anything with a lot of bass and put your hand on your subwoofer. That vibration and shaking is distortion. Ideally you should be able to put your hand on it and feel absolutely nothing. I made 200 lb enclosures out of solid surface material and I could still feel some vibration. Next versions will be better. Front loaded horns, tapped horns and (other) high order bandpass subs lend themselves better to enclosure rigidity due to the horn paths and chamber innards inherent to their construction. That said adding density by factor 2 or more to such cabs that easily take up 20 cf. of volume, and already weigh in at +200 lbs, is highly impractical and would seem to miss the forest for the trees; I’d much prefer their virtues of higher efficiency, better cone to air coupling and bigger effective air radiation area at a lesser package density than a smaller, less efficient and relatively heavier ditto. Stay away from ported subwoofers. Subwoofers have to move a lot of air and it is very hard to avoid port noise. It is better to stick with sealed designs and correct the frequency response with power and room control. That’s an unfortunate generalization. Sealed designs are hideously inefficient, and power only gets you so far - unless you have an abundance of displacement. Moreover mechanical stress associated driver noise would be obvious due to it being direct radiating - this goes for all DR designs. Ported designs when tuned low (with prodigious venting area) and using large diameter higher efficiency pro drivers can lead to good results, and if port noise would be prevalent here I’d suspects SPL’s to be substantial. Front loaded and tapped horn subs suffer no horn path noise. Theoretically it’s not impossible, but you’d have likely bought the farm by them - certainly structural integrity of your housing. Tapped horns have the driver "exposed" at the mouth area (re: mechanical driver sound issues), but with excursion minima at the tune are even better loaded compared to FLH’s, and so distortion levels are lower due to less cone movement at all but at the absolute limit of their capabilities (hence the prevailing logic of headroom). Regardless of the size of the room the minimum size is two 12" drivers or four 10" drivers. Bigger and more is always better. The less work any single driver has to do the lower will be the distortion. Making sub bass requires long excursions which take the suspension out of it’s linear operating range. Bigger and multiple drivers do not have to move as far. Front loaded horns and tapped horns (and other high order BP designs) are force multipliers; a 15" driver like the one used in my tapped horns is the equivalent of some two 18" direct radiating drivers - both due to the horn loading of the front wave of the driver, as well as the taking advantage of its summed output from the back wave - although they present bass quite differently to one another and hereby making comparisons a bit tricky in this regard. When you factor in high efficiency, large effective air radiation area and excellent loading of the driver (with proper motor force and other criteria met) that has the cabinet/horn do the heavy lifting, it equates into effortlessness in reproduction like few others. |
I have a single REL S5 mated to my Klipsch Cornwall IV speakers. The Cornwalls don't need much supplementation at the bottom end but I think the S5 integrates perfectly with them. My S5 is set to roll off at the top end at about 32.5Hz. All my audiophile friends that have listened to my system complement how well the S5 integrates with the CW IVs. Signal Cable makes a great Speakon connector subwoofer cable that I use to attach to my power amp's binding posts. |
jheppe815, Your post had me lamenting over my pair of Marantz 8B powered DIY JBL 4530 scoops I used in a back line stage Bass rig in the mid 60's. JBL was so approachable and helpful during that period. My current back packable Upshot rig weighs just 14 lbs. That 8B was my roundabout introduction to Hi-Fi. |
JL Audio makes very serious subwoofers. I would take them over REL. A relative has two Gothams. Wow. https://www.jlaudio.com/collections/home-audio-dominion I believe that it is better to get speakers that go lower than to add a sub. But, that’s just me. |
@jheppe815, Hi, I run the JBL B460's with a Crown studio reference 1 amp which runs on a dedicated 240 volt 30 amp circuit. IMHO: The Crown studio reference 1 amp is the best sounding amp Crown makes. All the power you will ever need in a home hi fi rig. Also the B460's have an efficiency of 2.6%, same efficiency as my main speakers. The subs and the mains have a sensitivity of 96 dB @ 1 watt two meters, so they are a good match. I run the main speakers with a pair of Quicksilver silver 60 mono block tube amps. The system sounds effortless. https://technicalaudio.com/pdf/Crown_International/Crown_Studio_Reference_Series_Manual.pdf |
This article http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/break-in.htm is a little bombastic but overall there is not much I can argue with. It is a good article for millercarbon to read. He won't like it but, he should read it anyway. He does not start talking about digital signal processing till the end of the article even though he is obviously a fan. It seems he thinks this is above most of us. |
How important is the amplifier in a system of subs?Almost any solid state amp made in the last 30-40 years has enough feedback to play the bass right (that's why solid state has always been known for good bass - good mids and highs? -that's another story...). Avoid any solid state amp that does not have a direct coupled output and you should be fine as long as it has enough power. |
There is many that say 2 subs is the best way to go. Can someone explain this philosophy a bit more (simple terms preferred)?Yes. If the subs are asked to go above about 80Hz they will begin to attract attention to themselves. At this point you'll need two, one for the left and right in the same vicinity as your main speakers. If the subs have no output above 50-60 Hz it won't matter where you put them so long as you can get the bass right at the listening chair. This might be hard with only 2 subs; very easy with 4 as discussed prior in this thread. |
mijostyn - Thank you for the warm welcome. I agree, pro sound / commercial amps may be all you need for subs. I have used QSC amps for decades and they are very solid performers. As well, a decent Crown professional amp isn't too expensive and will drive (home) subs with the good damping factors found in those amps. Your assessment of 1,000 watts of A/B power with high damping factor for subs is spot on. Side Note: The JBL SDA-2200 amplifier is the identical twin to the Arcam PA-240. Somewhat clinical sounding in audio reproduction, but very, very accurate and controlling of the driver. Plenty of power too for in the home and the ability to bridge the amp for mono use is helpful in my situation. ditusa - The B460's are fantastic. Great sounding and looking sub for home use. What do you use for power on them? I've played my system for two audiophile friends that have great, reference systems for the first time after I had it complete this spring. The look on their face when they hear subs at this level (not just volume, but sound quality) is priceless. It's just a whole different experience when that area below 50 hertz is fully realized by a decent driver designed specifically for that frequency range with good power behind it (and crossed over correctly). I'm not saying my system is excellent or of audiophile quality (though I do highly recommend the 4349's)...it's just very enjoyable (to me) and has made me want to listen to music much more now than I had in the past 15 years. I'm also lucky I have a large enough room to enjoy it in and my wife couldn't care less about how many big, ugly boxes I stack up in the living room. I'm fortunate she enjoys the new system too. I have noticed a large shift in music production recently where it's obvious the music is being mixed and mastered on studio monitors with extended low frequency reproduction and with instruments with the computing power to get down low. Where as you used to have listen to pipe organ music 30 years ago to get into really deep frequencies, standard pop tracks are reaching way down into the 40's and 30's (or maybe lower at times). [Grab some rock albums from the late '70's or early '80's and you wonder if they mixed it on anything but Yamaha NS-10's. Is the kick drum and bass guitar really in the mix...?] Another argument for adding subs to your two channel system. D_mn, I'm having fun with the mess of junk I have in my living room. Great discussion, and again, thank you for letting me add to it. |
Hi All, First time poster here. Thanks to the OP for the discussion topic. I've also been contemplating sub(s) for my 2 channel setup. There is many that say 2 subs is the best way to go. Can someone explain this philosophy a bit more (simple terms preferred)? I have a small-ish music room (13 x 11 1/2). The REL T/5x is my target but my mind is telling me that 2 subs in this room is going to be A LOT of sub. Is the dual sub more for balancing both channels to have depth added vs lopsided if only 1 sub? Again, 2 subs in this room seems overkill but I may not be taking into account more than volume (in room measurement and SPL). As a listener's room size goes up would a person simply scale up the size of the subs to the larger T/7x, T9x or the S series? Is there a 2 channel music scenario where adding 1 sub makes sense Vs. 2 subs? My humble setup includes - AVA CF Pre, Odyssey Stratos Stereo PA, B&W CM9s, Schitt Bifrost MB, Vintage Sony DD Turntable, Denon DL-110 cart, Moon 110LP Phono Thanks in advance for any responses. -Sam |
I can’t add much more expertise than MC and Atmosphere, but only my personal experience. MC is correct that more subs even out the bass nodes. Atmosphere is correct that larger cones mean less movement and a smoother response. I have a small sealed REL for a small room that works well with my stand mount Von Schweikert VR-1s. I have two Hsu subs that work well for my music room with HT. The idea that you don’t need subs is folly. Music and its harmonics go below 20 Hz. That’s the goal. I think it’s better to go with two or more subs properly positioned (see the Harmon white papers) is better than the best single sub. I recommend setting your highest budget and starting with two subs of good quality, position them properly and tune them to your system. Reach for sub 20 Hz at a reasonable level and add subs when you can. One expensive sub is not better than two subs of lesser “quality” for the same price if properly positioned. It takes time and effort. Ideally you won’t even know the subs are there, until you turn them off. Best of luck. Play on! |
My approach with subs has always been "keep it simple". I start with one and place it, walking the tightrope of performance vs permissible location. I throw on some bass heavy tracks and query A) Does it sound good? B) Can I locate the sub? If the answers are yes and no respectively, I leave it there. IMHO an unfortunate symptom of audiophilia is the need to endlessly complicate everything. |
jheppe815, welcome. You are absolutely right. Having a system that really produces low end is a lot of fun and frequently brings on smiles and laughing. I have many recordings of large organs that are so much fun to play for people. Every time a 32 footer lights up your vision actually blurs! You get some really funny reactions. But most importantly with good live recordings you can close your eyes and feel as if you are at the concert. It is every bit as audibly enjoyable as being at the event. If you just listen to solo female folk singers playing guitar then I suppose you can do without a subwoofer but for everything else? Let's put it this way, the people that have decent subwoofer systems are having a lot more fun:-) jheppe815, I use QSC amps to drive my subwoofers. I am not familiar with the JBL amplifier but using an expensive high end amplifier on subwoofers is totally unnecessary. Commercial amps are much more fairly priced and there are many sound reinforcement amps that have excellent bass. 1000 class AB watts with a damping factor 500 or above and a big power supply will generally fit the bill perfectly. |
Long time lurker, first time poster... I have to jump in and state what mijostyn stated above is excellent advise. After 30+ years in the audio world (home hi fi, car audio, Pro Audio), having large (or many) cones move very minimally is the key to low distortion and, if using ported cabinets, very little cause for port noise. I am a big fan of sealed cabinets, but a ported cabinet can extend lower with a flatter (on paper) response if done correctly. However, with gain, crossover point selection and room loading, a sealed cabinet can provided a flatter response than what is shown on paper, like a ported cabinet can, as frequencies get lower. Two (or more) subs seem mandatory to my ear. I can hear the soundstage pulled towards the subwoofer in a single sub setup in a home system or pro audio system. In my main home system, I am using two 18" JBL 2269H drivers in specific JBL cabinets (vented design for recording studio use) for low frequency extension beneath my JBL 4349’s for strictly 2 channel music reproduction. Each sub frequency driver is being run by a JBL Synthesis SDA-2200 amp in bridge mode at 790 watts (admittedly, not the most high end of amplifiers-but I’m affiliated with a JBL Synthesis dealer, so I use what we sell). The 4349’s are driven by a McIntosh MC312 and the system is crossed over by an outboard home hi fi crossover at around 80 hertz. Lots of power for effortless driving of the system. I am tainted by JBL low frequency "color" due to all my years in pro audio. There is a familiarity to me of how JBL low frequency drivers reproduce low end and I enjoy it. I could go into why I like the accordion surrounds, paper cones, etc., but that gets boring... 18’s in a home? That seems illogical and nonsense. However, those cones simply don’t move at low to moderate levels. Again, goes back to what mijostyn states about low distortion levels when the cones (air pistons really) are not moving much. I have zero vent noise or chuffing. Again, being a sealed cabinet guy, I was quite hesitant on these cabinets but after implementation of the system, that large driver (and it’s construction) simply sounds good. At full tilt with the drivers reproducing frequencies in the 20’s, it’s scary as to how much fun it is. I have other systems in the house in smaller rooms with tiny cabinets (and one system with a tiny subwoofer) and 50 watts of power, but I hardly listen to them anymore due to just how much fun it is to listen to a large system with subs driven by big power in a big room. I’ll probably get promptly booted out of here and banned for life for suggesting 18" JBL drivers on an audiophile forum, but just wanted to share my experiences and I’m having a ton of fun with this setup. Dual 10’s or 12’s should be a starting point for any addition of subs. I applaud everyone for at least considering subs in their home system. For decades I ran a small, low power, no sub, intimate system in my main room thinking, "nah, I’m good if the cabinets start rolling at 50 or 60 hertz". Life indeed begins below 40 hertz. |
A response to "No sub is the best sub" and so I have also said....however, while we say, the cello is at 200 hz and the kettle drum can register at 110hz, the actual frequency isn't a pin point. While each instrument is most pronounced at the frequency point, the instrument contains a wide range of frequencies even much lower (and higher)than expected. As with photography, the black forms a key element even in the brightest pic. Our audiophile hobby resembles photography. All the frequencies (all shades of color) form the creation of a lifelike reproduction. Even human voice contains such very low frequencies that when removed or added can dramatically change the reproductive realism. My new sub is on the way....SVS SB-2000 Pro, its sister will follow next year. Any Thoughts? |
I'm pretty sure an ear cleaning and a posted ear test is in order.. LOL Voices mozartfan, "Nothing below 160" mercy what kind of music do you listen to? LOL I think even Cher get down there.. There is all kinds of music from 250 down.. 60 - 150 is BASS, 120-280 is MB and really directional. The issue I still have is vibration in the monitor cabinet.. 80-300 is still hard to dampen in a cabinet, with mids and highs there too. Time alignment is impossible without separate cabinets (Mechanically) Sub frequencies 60< forget it. Not in my monitors cabinets.. or MB for that matter. BOTH are separate cabinets. 1. Subs GRs servo system 2. Band pass MB columns, direct coupled. NO passive XOs excellent cone control.. 3. Monitors (split dipole) hybrid LS All separate cabinets.. The best way I've found so far. IB MB columns and an OB servo sub system.. They work WELL in any room.. So far.. Regards |
@northbeach curious how the RSLs work out for you. Lots of good reviews on those. Very interested to see how they do in 2 Ch. I’ve owned Rythmik and HSU’s ULS 15 and VTF line - all great value that give the competition some level of hesitance. REL - never experienced, but there’s definitely something to be said with all of the posts above. |
“Best sub is no sub, There's nothing below 160hz, hardly a few cello notes and kettle drums, Ralph is a gentleman, with impeccable physics. Takes a Brit however to get right to the point. https://youtu.be/0c5ynKJxnWI?t=238 |
when I went to buy my first sub, the rule of thumb was, “you only need one, bass isn’t directional”. That didn’t feel right to me.At 80Hz the waveform is about 14 feet long. This means that in most rooms within a couple of iterations of the cycle of the bass note is reverberance- so its also omnidirectional. At lower frequencies the waveform is even longer. That’s the rhyme and reason. Two subs works better simply because you reduce standing waves a bit with their use. 3 subs works better; 4 subs works excellent with quite diminishing returns above 4. There's nothing below 160hz, hardly a few cello notes and kettle drums,Low E on a string bass is 41Hz. You're fooling yourself if you think bandwidth that low or lower won't help with realism. |
I'm on a budget and am awaiting arrival of a pair of RogerSound Labs Speedwoofers. I don't like the fact they are ported, but am going to give them a try as they feature transmission line design [which matches what I have with my Atlantic Technology AT-1s]. Since RogerSound pays shipping both ways, they are the first to which I will give a try. I'm replacing a very dated Mirage dual opposed 8" sub which is far too boomy for my taste. All for music. |
