It's great when you find a treasured speaker! Eight years have passed since my Kingsound King III review, and they continue to amaze me.
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First post in maybe 10 years.....
Avalon Radian 2C3D with all Spectral/MIT setup long gone......
But my ex-wife graciously gave back after 15 years my original Acoustat 2+2 speakers with my original Spectral DMC-10 and DMA-50. Running a old Rega Saturn with very old MIT Oracle cables.
Re-read Holt's 1984 review of the Acoustats and Dave Wilson's review of the DMA-50 from 1985 or 6. Funny how delightful to hear and feel the joy of being an audiophile again.
When I heard Schubert's 9th I leaped with happiness with smiles hearing the Emerson Quartet performing the late quartets.
35 years later I can find peace.
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I think my soundlab m2's do quite well in the bass region;overall it is the best speaker I have owned;I would like to hear that field coil speaker that Ralph from atmasphere comments on now and then. |
Koss Model 1A. Tri-amped. |
My choice would be Infinity's Servo Static One. I owned a pair in the past after having a single pair of KLH Nines. The SS-1 was a great speaker - electrostatic mids and highs along with a super 18" woofer that went down to 20Hzs. Problem was, it was unreliable, service was poor, and it was built out of "bubble gum and tape." The KLH Nines were great, but you really needed two pairs (Double Nines), to realize their full potential. They needed a large room to sound best. My suspicion is the Sound Labs are the best electrostatics around. I heard them once and wanted to own a pair but could not afford them...yet. |
Actually this newer company GT audio works makes. Excellent
Magnetic planer .in som ways better then Maggie's I have owned then nd ML. For one their Cabinet is 3x thicker and dissipates vibration much better from my observations at th N.Y show. This speaker ribbon unit,as well as the panel uses the 10 x better nd more expensive Neodymium magnets
Which make the speaker much more efficient around 90 db stop and start
Faster better lock on imaging and dynamics.the panel is smaller for the panel handles just midbass and up .the seperate cabinet has 2- 8inch Scanspeak drivers for the lower midrange and 2-8 inch drivers for the lower Bass down to 28 hz and is powered.for $3500,at th moment $500 off
This would be a $10k speaker all day long if it was dealer based.
This is one speaker to look out for it is well worth checking it out
And the in home trial makes it easy,which I plan on doing after Xmas. |
Lived with ESLs all my audio days. Finally settled for the Sound Lab Ultimate a few years back, driven by Atmas or Siegfrieds. Stopped fretting, tweaking and being ambivalent, just listened to the music ever since. |
I just finished reviewing the King Sound King III for Dagogo.com. The article is not yet published, but the speaker will be on demo at RMAF this weekend. Distributed by Performance Devices.
I consider the King III the best sounding Panel speaker bar none under $20K. In my system pics you will see the original King. I have switched to the King III but have not put up the pics yet. :) |
Wilfredt, I own the predecessor to the Sanders Sound 10b which is the Innersound Kaya. The Kaya's are a little bigger than the 10b and/or 10c. These speakers do not lack in dynamics and can handle high SPL with no fear of arcing like Quads. They are also full range with no need of a subwoofer because they basically have subs built in. They need a powerful amp to drive the electrostat panels but come with an amp to power the woofers. I'm using an Innersound amp for the panels and it drives them well.
I have heard the 10b and 10c at RMAF a few times and they sound very similar to my Kayas. Driven by a good source these are very good speakers.
They are very directional in the high frequencies because of the flat panel. This results in a one person sweet spot. If you usually listen in the sweet spot then this is not a problem. The benefit of the highs being directional is there is less interaction with the room. |
Wilfredt- Sarcher has some Sanders or the earlier version, I forget the name. You might look at his system and ping him. I started with 'stats back in the early 70's and could never find midrange comparable on other speakers, but using the original Quad, I WAS limited by restricted dynamics, bass, beaminess, etc. I used ribbon tweets, and subwoofers, which I could never integrate properly. Still have them, awaiting restoration. Then went to a Quad 63, mod'd by Crosby. That speaker overcame some of the shortcomings of the original Quad ESL, but to my ears, it didn't have quite the same coherence in the midrange. Still have those too. Finally went to horns, circa 2006. Dynamics not an issue, but getting them right has taken time, and they are much more finicky about the associated equipment. At some point, I'll reassemble some Quad stuff, just for kicks (I wouldn't mind doing a slightly updated version of the HQD). I did like that original Martin Logan curvalinear panel and back in the day, listened to my share of others, including the KLH 9 and Dayton-Wright.
Soundlabs probably makes sense. Haven't heard the newest incarnations of the Quad either. |
Essentialaudio,
The check is in the mail. :-) |
Has anyone listened to the Electrostatic speakers from Sanders Sound Systems - Models 10c or 11 ? Appreciate any comments or feedback regarding these speakers. |
Sure, when should I look for your check? |
Essentialaudio - thanks for the info. If not asking too much, can you arrange to have some U-1PXs delivered for my next birthday? |
Geoff, current prices on the full range models range from the M-3PX at $13,270/pair to the U-1PX at $40,270. The popular M-1PX is a bit over $25k. |
How much are Sound Labs these days? Just curious. |
Best Electrostatic ?!?! Yes. The very best. Made by Sound Lab. Why is it the best? Its the one that plays the deepest bass and has the greatest dynamic range. That is why- otherwise, Quads, ML, etc. are all quite convincing (and excellent IMO) due to the speed of the diaphragm and their cohesive nature endemic to ESLs. But only one was conceived to be a full-scale loudspeaker, one that is ESL from top to bottom, one that you don't have to worry about putting more than 35 watts into it, etc- and you all know what I am talking about. So Sound Lab is the best ESL made by nearly all standards. Not saying that that is the way it will always be, but so far I've not seen anyone else really take up the gauntlet like Sound Lab has. |
Geoff,
I understand and agree the quads dynamics are better with all that removed, but could hardly be called great by today's standards. Much as I respect it for its time. |
Chadeffect, please note I said sans heavy metal grills and plastic dust
covers which restrict dynamics and bass performance considerably. |
Geoff,
The original quads were good if you listened a low volume to light music, otherwise you would soon start complaining. Where is the bass? Where are the dynamics? |
Former magnepan owner here. 3.3. Powered by Spectral DMA 180. Quite clear,but could never get the imaging right,and the bass response was inadequate. Subwoofers at the time were not up to the task. Went to dynamic speakers for last 14 years, Audio Physic. and was completely satified until an unplanned audition of Martin Logan Montis. Wife was checking out Martin Logan Clx for a client, so I was in the other room passing time. Hadn't heard ML in 15 years, and was thrilled. All the Bass needed, dead center imaging. Bought them that day,and retail was less than my 15 y/o Audio Physics. |
The original Quads are pretty tough to beat, sound quality wise. Sans grills and dust covers and with good tube electronics. |
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For what it's worth, it wasn't Magnepan's patent infringement suit that killed Apogee, but financial difficulties. Apparently, the Grand, while superb, was very expensive to make, and they also had trouble with the cost of in-warranty ribbon repairs. If you do a search you can find an account by someone who worked at Apogee at the time. |
I third the apogees (former owner, circa 1995-98). |
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I thought Apogees are/were ribbon speakers, not electrostats?
Also aren't Maggies planar magnetic/ribbon speakers and not electrostats as well? |
I second the Apogees. I've moved up from a set of Calipers to Duetta Signatures. Yes, they need the right amp to shine, but boy oh boy, nothing else quite like them.
Yes, you are taking a bit of a risk buying a pair since they are usually 20-25 years old now. But there is nothing to compete with them at the prices I see them listed for. |
Br3098,
Infringement of copyright I believe :-( |
Chadeffect,
I'm curious - just how did Magnepan "kill off" Apogee? I would have nominated a/d/s for that award. |
Soundlabs get a lot of positive buzz worth noting. |
I've owned a few 'stats as well as Maggies, but my current fav's are 1 ohm Scintillas which betters the others I've had. The upstream gear is very important to any panel speaker and makes a huge difference in it's voice. |
What about the GT Audio Works GTA-2's ???.... |
Oh I meant to say the new Magnepans sounded fabulous. Shame they killed off Apogee...
If price comes into it you would find it hard to beat a magnepan IMHO |
The Soundlabs are very good and hard to beat.
I heard a new ML driven by Anthem digital mono amps with da Vinci DAC a week or 2 ago. The ML looked like a summit but I don't think it was one. It was extremely good. It was Dynamic with headroom and the bass seemed to keep up with the panel and was tuneful. It was playing pretty loud too.
That was the first time I have ever heard an ML hybrid ESL sound complete. As far as quad goes, if you can strap them to your head as headphones you may get somewhere.
My cap is off to Quad as grandparents, but with modern speakers being so good, they cannot compete. People expect higher SPLs without the compression, flimsy dynamics and the inevitable shut down. A speaker should not dictate which music you can play. |
In a few weeks the backplates on the Sound Lab U-1PXs here will be upgraded to the new Consummate version which will be introduced at THE Show in Las Vegas. These will be the first pair until they become available in January. Pricing has not been set, but I will know soon.
The purpose of the new backplate design is to make the speakers a lot easier to drive by both tube and solid state amplifiers. |
Boy, the bass is pretty nice on the Sound Labs. Of course it takes the right amp to do it, one that can make power into a higher impedance (hint: don't use transistors), but the bass on the Sound Lab is top shelf. |
Could not agree more. Roger Sanders knows how to do ESLs the best, Yes, Soundlab is great, but bass is lacking in depth and tightness. ML has some nice sounding speakers now too, but the Sanders 10C is amazing with superior transient response and bass, and nobody can match his 30 day MB trial and lifetime warranty that includes shipping both ways!!! I'm also using the Sanders ESL MKII amplifier, and I've never heard better on any speaker that I've owned. Of course the Magtech has more power and a patent-pneding voltage regulator, but most people wouldn't tell the difference between the Magtech and ESL amp. I have a used pair of Kaya Reference that sounds nearly identical to the 10C, especially since I'm using the same digital crossover. But the 10C has better quality of workmanship, goes 2 hz lower and plays 3db louder in the bass. An important note is that Roger's coaxial ESL speaker cables are a must. They replaced some super expensive solid core silver speaker cable, and the sound became balanced properly (instead of exaggerated highs), with far more inner detail and enjoyment. Roger Sanders is the MAN. You will be lucky to get his equipment. |
I am shocked that Roger Sanders name has not come up he is by far the most knowledgable guy out there on the planet he even had a cook book relating to building stats and By the way He was the one who developed the curvilinear panel for Martin Logan ,but to his shock he realized that it was wrong for 3 reasons. If you go to sanders sound systems he has a short video and explains this very accurately.
Rogers new speaker #10 just received The Absolute Sounds
Golden Ear award .I am in the process of buying it this speaker not only has the best warranty in the business
but comes with it's own 360w amp just for the Bass with Cables , and a Very good digital Xover which is many times better than the passive junk in most other speakers and having a 48db slope guarantees the excellent transmission line Bass is Totally Seamless ! also with the digital Xover you can tune your speaker exactly the way you want for all rooms are different sonicly and you can tune in more Bass or less as well as mids who else does this ? and The SPL levels without strain even with 1,000 wpc Brystons No Sweat
and the musicality is incredible even under show conditions Fantastic. As far as sweet spot all speakers have a sweetspot less than 4ft based on the = triangle principle.
Being a stat you have the rear wave for any ambiance you will need .Since they come with a 30 day money back and they pay shipping both ways what would you have to loose ?
This is exactly why I am buying them, Maggis or ML donot offer all this and these sound at least as good as the big ML or Maggis with better bass and dynamics and not the size of a refrigerator as in a soundlab which BTW is still a very good speaker .If you havn't heard the new 10c then you have not heard them. Give them a good listen before making any call that is what any informed Audiophile would do ,checkem out . |
Thank you very much for your kind words, Tireguy and Detlof! |
Excellent post Duke! Thanks! You've helped me to understand my (highly ambivalent) experiences with various types of ML hybrids in various rooms far better now, by expaining the obvious! Cheers, |
Duke- I love your posts!! I always learn so much, thanks for joining our humble online group of audio dorks!! ~Tim |
Tekunda -
As you have observed, there is a wide range of opinions on the Martin-Logans, with some people loving them and some coming down on them pretty hard. This may sound strange, but I don't think the speakers are at fault - and I'd like to offer a possible explanation.
With the Martin Logan hybrids, you have to get the model that's voiced for your size room because the tonal balance of the speaker is dependent on the room size (and also listening distance). And it's the dealer's job to see to it that the speakers match the customer's room. Let me explain why this is so critical:
Sound pressure level falls off more rapidly with distance from a point source (the woofer) than from a line source (which the electrostatic panel approximates). Mathematically, sound pressure level falls off with the square of distance from a true point source, and linearly with distance from a true line source. So if we had a hybrid voiced to be flat at 1 meter, back at 10 meters the output from the panel would be 10 dB louder than from the woofer (assuming anechoic conditions and a true line source and point source - if you'd like me to go through this in more detail I will). In the real world the reverberant field fills things in a bit, but I once measured a hybrid electrostat that had the woofer up by 1 dB at 1 meter, then was flat at 3 meters, and then the panel was up by 4 dB back at 8 meters. So you see, listening distance and room size would have a very significant impact on how the system sounded.
The hybrid systems from InnerSound and Sound Lab have provisions for fine-tuning the relative level of panel and woofer, and so they work well in a wide variety of rooms. With the Martins and their wide selection, the idea is to get the speaker that's voiced for that size room. Note that another line source/point source hybrid that gets strongly opinionated reviews (pro and con) is the Newform R645, which also lacks level adjustments.
I'd be willing to bet that most of the strongly negative consumer reviews of the Martin hybrids arise from using too small a speaker for the room (resulting in weak bass/bright or thin sound) or too big a speaker for the room (resulting in thickened, sluggish bass and/or dull, lifeless sound). In support of this theory, note that people pretty much agree on what Maggies, or Sound Labs, or Quads, or even Martin CLS's sound like. But people don't generally agree on what the Martin hybrids sound like because their tonal balance is significantly more room-dependent. |
Anybody tried the ML Prodigy with a sub woofer?
Since a few people complain about the bass of the ML Prodigy, I wonder if there are people who use a sub for their ML Prodigy?
I know that a German friend of mine is experimenting with a sub for his Prodigy (he has even filled the woofer cabinet of the Prodigy with some sort of lead) and is running the ML with two pairs of Double Kronzilla monoblocks ($35.000,00 per pair)
I have not had a chance to audition his speakers yet, (I will do this in the summer) but he claims that they sound awesome now.
May I also mention that far too many people put the ML speakers down saying: I have listen to the ML, but they sound terrible.
These people never tell whích ML they have auditioned. ML does make quite a range of different speakers. Its like saying that I have driven a Mercedes and do not like their cars and then it turns out that all I drove was an 190D. Ever tried a S-class? In ML terms the 190 D would be an old SL3, versus the new S-class, the Prodigy.
So please, whenever you claim you have listened to a ML and do not like the speakers, please tell us which one. And then not only which model, but which amps were used, what kind of room etc.
ML speakers are not speakers for the faint of heart, for people who are not willing to spend time to get the matching electronics, or who cannot or will not invest time to really set this speakers up.(This can be a bit tricky) But once you have gone through all this trouble, you will be greatly rewarded by an almost heavenly sound. |
Jeffrey, I have had experience with the 989 and have driven them with Jadis 500s, Spectral 360s, Gryphon Reference monos and InnerSound monos in direct comparison with the Sound Lab Pristine. Wires by Nordost, MIT and the ones sold by InnerSound, which are surprisingly good. Now the Pristine is quite aged by now, but it had by far the better dynamics and I found it less coloured over all than the 989, which sounds a bit darkish in my setup. I find the old Quad 63 by far the better speaker than the 989. I have never had any trouble with the Pristine, whereas the 989 has hardly proven reliable and is a downright disappointment as far as I am concerned. Considering that the M2 is a tremendous advancement over the Pristine, I would not hestitate a second in choosing it, if I were in your shoes. The M2 probably, like the Pristine, needs quite a bit of power to make it sing,( I am now using the Jadis 500 with it for best dynamics ) but contrary to the 989 it can take it. |
For me my new Martin Logan Prodigy speakers do just fine. All these speakers are giants, in there own right and I thank those designers and engineers who contributed to so many fine products. For me it will always be the sound of electrostatics. These magic pannels which have alowed me to travel the world. Remember the excitement of past concerts attended or wished I had. All this Sitting in my living room, in my favorite chair and refreshment, lights off,the kids off playing and just the music. |
While reviewing all the posts, I was amazed that no one mentioned Innersound EROS mk2. You may want to take a look at a thread under tech talk "auditioned Innersound". Its about an opportunity I had to audition them. They are incredibly efficient, and sound absolutely amazing! These things shame any other electrostats anywhere in the price range, that I have ever heard. Despite the pictures on Innersound's web site, in real life, they are just beautiful looking. Believe me, as others have said here on Audiogon, these are electrostats with balls! Priced at 6K, and includes a bass amp at 600 wpc with adjustable electronic xovers. The fast tight bass from their 10" transmission line woofers, will just blow you away. |
Acoustat III, 2+2 or 4, Quad is good but it can't play rock or big band like Acoustat can do. Acoustat is indestructible. I have a pair of 2+2 and I love them after all these years.
What's about Magneplanar? It's simple it's not an electrostatic speaker it's an isodynamic that's all, and it's not fast as Quad, SoundLab or other ESS, ok it give a good sound but I prefer an Acoustat or Quad by far. |
Albert Porter please contact me. See my postings above, "I have narrowed" and "989 vs. M2." I would like to benefit from your long experience with Soundlabs and must commit to one of thes two soon. I would love to chat with you, and you may call me at home and/or email. Thanks, Jeffrey jfteuber@earthlink.net or Tel & Fax: 805 434 9220 California My room: 32 feet by 16'7" wide with ceiling sloping from 9 to 16 feet across width dimension. |
Quad 989 vs. Soundlab Millennium 2? Would appreciate any comments, experience or insights reflecting on the sonic tradeoffs of these two. I am about to take the plunge and have narrowed it down to these. Thank you, Jfteuber@earthlink.net or Tel & Fax: 805 434 9220 California -- Call any time. |
