Basic switch....should I upgrade?

I don’t think stacking switches is a great idea. I would just recommend running one EtherREGEN with a good cable on a dirty side and the best possible cable you can get your hands on for the clean side going into your streamer. Also try grounding the switch/EtherREGEN. 

I have 3 switches and each brought an improvement 

I found fiber sullied the sound but I think I used copper on my etherregen at the same time so maybe that was the issue

I found using a Mutec external clock on the Etherregen and SOTM switches made a drastic improvement as did upgraded power supplies

More is better

@audphile1" I don’t think stacking switches is a great idea." Agree but no can do if using the optical cable. Here’s the current setup and below the EtherREGEN words to the wise (who can read). So if optical, then two switches....jesh I’m flummoxed. @fredrik222 Thoughts?

@anzaanimalclinic Can you please post a snap(s) of your three switch setup?

On Page 6 of the EtherRegen Manual "

"Since it is preferred that your audio endpoint (DAC-attached streamer/renderer) be alone on one side of the moat, users who connect an optical endpoint should avoidconnecting any other devices to the other ’A’-side ports (the four RJ45 copper ports)"

@wsrrsw going to and from optical involves signal conversion. While I subscribe to that you should not be able to hear any difference from an audiophile switch compared to an enterprise switch, similarly if everything works ok, you shouldn’t notice any difference from optical transmission​​​​​​, I am sure someone is going to argue that moving from/to optical degrades the signal. 
 

personally, I have to fibers run to my detached garage due to the length of the run from my switches, but no audiophile grade stuff in the garage, just a SVS prime and some B&W speakers for workouts. Fiber is expensive however, at least 10 times more.

@fredrik222 Think you mean Ethernet is more than SFP? 

I seem to be flip flopping over SFP verses Ethernet cable. Ever time I switch I’m happy (no telling my wife….I’ve been laying ground work for other goodies)

Less of a chain (wires, power et all) to me makes sense. YMMV. 

I don’t think stacking switches is a great idea. I would just recommend running one EtherREGEN with a good cable on a dirty side and the best possible cable you can get your hands on for the clean side going into your streamer. Also try grounding the switch/EtherREGEN. 

i agree with this ^ ^ ^

@wsrrsw ok. So you need one Ethernet to Roon core and one to streamer. I thought EtherREGEN can split one in to two outs. So I fail to see why fibre optic is necessary in this chain at all.
One more thing…I tested and didn’t care for the iFi power supply on d-link switch. I returned the iFi. I also returned the FMCs.
I just ended up with EERO to NA Eno Streaming System to Lumin U1 Mini. No further plans to touch or “enhance” this chain.
This is the best sounding combination. But…it is system/ears/brain//OCD driven and dependent so yeah I get it….

“Less of a chain (wires, power et all) to me makes sense.”

That’s why I’ve been recommending trying Network Acoustics ENO passive filter. It is probably the most effective noise filtering device without the ‘extra’ baggage (LPS, clocks, Ethernet switch, fiber converters and so on).

@lalitk Network Acoustics now has the muon Streaming System But to use roon and the hard drive I would need a switch. English Electric 8Switch seems to be an excellent choice. Trying to decide if the included power best option. They say not to use linear power with the unit.

A lot more here on the Muon

@wsrrsw

I’m aware of latest offerings (Muon filter and Rubicon Ethernet switch) from NA albeit at higher price point. You may try EE8 and see if it’s worth the improvements in your system. You can read up on Muon and Rubicon switch here,

@lalitk T H A N K S... reading away. I think at this point my whee noggin has crossed the rubicon. Madness takes it toll. Have exact change.

@wsrrsw you can try the EE8 from upscale. Their return policy is decent - 60 days.

Check out Hans Beekhuysen’s review of the Eno filter which is detailed with lots of good info on the subject in general and what I hear in my system with Eno pretty much aligns with Hans’ results. He also ran it with and without the EtherREGEN in the chain. He has a review of the Muon switch as well. 
If you need help choosing Eno vs. Muon reach out to Network Acoustics. Rob from NA recommended the Eno for me based on my set up (components and speakers). Nothing but positive experience to report from my interactions with Rob.

You might end up with less clutter and better results. A slam dunk in my book!
 

While YMMV on individual setups, the biggest improvements in my case were the addition of an Antelope clock and Zerozone LPS to the Etherregen as wellas adding an LHYAUDIO Ocxo switch with built in LPS in front of it., I don‘t believe that a mere filter can replicate the improvement from better clocking.

@audphile1 Thank you. On it like hot sauce on rice.(I think I know a place where I can sell the gear I’ll be replacing.)

@antigrunge2 My steamer has a "Femto Clock System with precision FPGA distribution" (no idea what ’dat means) and your steamer also has an internal clock too.

Before typing this I nosed around the forum and some think a "master clock" is the way to go and some think two clocks aren’t necessary as the streamer re-clocks. Going the Network Acoustics way re-clocking ins’t possible whereas going the etherREGEN way it is. Chicken or egg...filter and/or clock? Clear as mud.

This segway from the switch question seems like a natural progression as it really all about the signal path into the streamer. Gone are the days of AM radio and flesh colored earphones.

@wsrrsw i have had very substantial benefits from reclocking both the Etherregen and the DACs conversion and USB link; as mentioned YMMV. Reclocking and fltering are different things: In addition to reclocking I use a DXE ISO plus filter and an Emo EN70HD isolator.

People should also concentrate more on feeds directly out of modems. This is most common weak link I see in many otherwise complex and optimized streaming chains. If one is using long cheaper ethernet cable out of modem, opening oneself up for picking up tons of RFI, not to say relatively poorer sound quality of that cheaper cable. Many years ago I experimented with various quality long ethernet cables out of modem, sq differences even with lower resolution streaming setup I had at time. Then went to longer coax cable in order to move modem closer to audio rig, this allowed much shorter AQ Vodka to replace the cheaper long ethernet cable, very nice upgrade in sound quality. I have also experimented with upgraded power cable to modem and connection to my power conditioner, no great payoff here. Just off top of head, wonder if anyone makes audiophile modem?

This all points to same old dilemma, does the source matter more than loudspeaker argument. I don't enter the argument, as everything matters relatively equally in my book. Which means both the modem and what's feeding switch or router matters greatly, you can't gain back what you've lost. People want to believe all these streaming devices will somehow improve on what comes before, they absolutely DON'T! They only block the nasties of what they're fed, you've already lost some level of resolution by the filth that's infiltrated via EMI/RFI.

I spoke to an EE friend who is designing next generation 6G hardware; i.e. he knows something about this topic. I asked about stacking switches. He quickly replied that the addition of each switch degrades latency. Pure and simple.

So, the good news; properly dealing with ethernet is important. Apparently, deliberately degrading the signal is changing the sound. Just like other areas of audio, some types of distortion can seem to be a solution for other issues.

The bad news, properly dealing with ethernet is important. Stacking switches is not a solution.

@vinylvalet

Latency in audio applications is not a significant problem, easily addressed by buffering. Clocking accuracy, though is a whole other matter. Your friend clearly works in the digital domain. Analogue/digital conversion takes completely different priorities than digital transfer

@antigrunge2 I'm not sure about your point. Regardless of whether ethernet latency issues are a significant problem or not, why degrade latency deliberately (multiple switches) only to have to add more circuitry down the line, easily addressing (debatable) the issue you've introduced or not.

We are talking about the ethernet signal, clearly in the digital domain, not a non-ethernet digital stream decoded by a DAC.

Again, decisive is what gets to the converter. Latency is not the problem, RFI/EMI, ground level noise and timing errors are. Adding switches helps with those.

I covered my Netgear switch and plug in 3M EMI/RFI shielding absorber, used the filters below on the ethernet cable and put a choke of on the cord from the wall wart.

DX Engineering DXE-ISO-PLUS-2 - DX Engineering ISO-PLUS Ethernet RF Filters

Ethernet EMI Filter, Patent Pending, RF Common Mode Choke, Inline Coupler EMI Filter, GbE, Double Female RJ-45, Cat 5e, Cat 6 Compatible, Pair.

I had the choke and absorber paper left over from another project.

@fredrik222 seems to be the only one who knows what he is talking about.

An Ethernet switch either works completely & flawlessly or fails miserably.  There is no in between.  Since cheapish switches are designed to mostly work in 1 gigabit range, unless you exceed the 802.11 specs they ALL work, for them, audio level speeds is a walk in the park.

Unless there is something electrically wrong with the switch when you first use it, a different power supply will NOT make a difference.

Keep your money and simply buy a $30 switch.  It will be MORE than adequate.  Just make sure that its existing power supply actually works and make sure the wiring you add is at least category 6 compliant and you will be fine.

@cakyol Dude.....This is team USA; everyones knows what they are talking about. (Young man you are no better than your father and he was no better than his father. Bet the internet doesn't know that one.) Seriously I have benefited a lot thanks too many.  Hans Beelhuysen says one thing someone else says another. Ok. Yup. It's everywhere. Here the pervasive generosity is tops. 

I just dig learning about this stuff and like many like my gear (a lot of watch and car folks here too I'd wager) and refining and/or just switching it up. Your honors, my room is the weakest link but that a non starter w/ you know who.

@sns Bingo! That mangled blue junk from the modem to the router could use an up grade. While I'm at it will also get power lines away. 

@bd  no, adding to fix a bad link in the chain never works. Remove the crap out of the chain instead. 
 

basically you are saying that using your iPhone DAC and source into another significantly better DAC will fix the issues with the phone DAC. Not possible. 
 

a switch operates on layer 2 in the tcp/ip stack, and will only check for crc frame errors. A switch doesn’t do anything to correct timing (jitter) issues. That is just not how a switch works, period. 

I’ve read lots. Reviews. Audio forums. Watched a few Youtube videos as well.

The people I want to listen to say yes.

I tend to ignore the likes of Cakehole. He says no. Old school. He tells us to stand in the corner.

@antigrunge2  @melm & @audphile1 I did ground the etherREGEN and the PSU to my streamer (both having ground screws) with some scrap 12G wire and I'm surprised how more holographic sound is. It's like my speakers took growth hormones. My holographic cherry has been popped. Thanks gents.

I chucked my poor switch and use only the etherREGEN. As tempting as a Network Acoustics Eno or Moun would be that would require a switch.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.... unless you're an audiophile. Right? 

@sns 

People should concentrate more on feeds directly out of modems. This is most common weak link I see...

I have tried to address the situation.

I have my modem attached to a modded Cisco 2960 switch. Then (Cat5?) ethernet cable running 10m (can't replace this cable unfortunately) to an ethernet outlet. 

Have a Lan isolator connected to the outlet to a modded Cisco SG110D switch, then another Lan isolator connected to streamer.

That may address some of the issues.

@wsrrsw that’s awesome to hear! 
I would not change anything at this point. Just make sure you use the best Ethernet cable between the EtherREGEN and the streamer. 

@wsrrsw,

Glad to hear it‘s working. Although it sounds like overkill, I use an Ethernet isolator (EMO EN70-HD) directly at the streamer for good effect (l.e. after the Etherregen‘s moat) Don‘t know why but it works a treat. If you want to go further in overkill tape 2 AAA Bateeries parallel to the cable into the streamer with the + pole pointing to the streamer. (again, don‘t ask me why, but it works)

I also highly recommend an Intona Isolator on the USB connection.

Digital transmission is anything but sorted and mature. It takes lots and trial and error.

@antigrunge2

Your Ethernet reminds me of old corroded water line that is held together with so many patches to prevent water leaks and contamination 😂 🤣

@lalitk,

good analogy, only difference: I prevent muck from coming in rather than water leaking out😇. Scary though how every little bit helps. You‘d think a decent designer could do better!

“You‘d think a decent designer could do better!”

@antigrunge2 

You’re so right. I would like to see a completely isolated Ethernet chamber with some kind noise filtering tech inside streamers / servers. Essentially a ENO or MUON filter type approach built into every audio streamer / server would prevent some of us jumping through hoops to eliminate noise 😊

@lalitk,

again: agreed. Given the substantial impact of the 10m clock on the Etherregen as well as the contribution of the Ocxo-switch I am not convinced that mere filtering suffices, though…

I guess the InnuOS Phoenix Ehrerregen is the most credible attempt by a manufacturer  so far. Disappointing, though that there seems to be no common clock between the two Phoenixes (Etherregen, USB), the server and the DAC in that model.

@antigrunge2 

Look out for upcoming Network Acoustics Rubicon switch.  A box like ENO inside a streamer / server would serve as a solid foundation to noise containment. Tweak geeks like us will always find a way to improve upon existing standards 😉

@sns What mods did you perform on your Cisco gear?

I wonder how much time the Engineers building modern recording studio's spend on the audio attributes of the Ethernet  network connecting their recording equipment? My guess would be about 3 ms.  

@scottfraser in what way is Ethernet used in a recording process by the recording studios?

@audphile1

Here is one example, I own quite a few of their amazing DSD recordings.

@vinylvalet  I don't have Cisco switch, can understand the mix up, one can really go into weeds with streaming and optimizing networks, as we have in this thread.

The problem as I see it, is segregated expertise between dac and streaming component designers. I don't have a problem with dac designers as long as they provide a first class port, be it usb, spdif or network for streaming dacs. I DO have issue with server designers who mostly give us lame, second class outputs. Low processing power, ports connected directly to relatively noisy motherboards with poor clock implementation, no isolated power supply, just what are we paying for! Optimized OS and a fancy case is about it. Sure some of them provide outboard lps, but I'm talking about lps for individual ports.

So, because of these limitations we're forced to get various rendering decrapifiers and conversion schemes, or go to streamers to avoid the decrapifiers. Streamers come in many flavors, one needs to to their due diligence to avoid mismatched components and/or reach full potential of dac/streamer interface.

And then we have the network itself, we still await that magical bullet, the least complex, best universal setup. I suspect, over time, as more attention is paid to audiophile network solutions these innovations will be forthcoming.

Ultimately, it would be nice to see more integration between dac, streaming/server and network designers. More simplified and universal solutions would be good.

@sns I apogize, my mistake. My question should have been directed to @jerrybj (please share your Cisco mods).

Otherwise, thank you for your post. I agree with everything you said. Kind of like the early days of vinyl; we've come a long way. Like you, I am optimistic.

@audphile1  in many ways. Common method would be storage for a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) on a NAS or external file server. More sophisticated use would be recording equipment , mixers, DAW’s etc supporting DANTE which runs over IP/Ethernet.

@scottfraser NAS storage makes sense. As far as recording and mastering…there are so many poorly recorded albums out there that no amount of fixes by the end user/listener in their system can address these issues be it mastered over Ethernet or direct.
Studios, at least some, also use basic cables and mid fi monitors. Then there are recording studios and engineers that are so anal about the quality of the product they put out that they use the best possible gear. What does all this mean to us as end users? In my opinion - absolutely nothing. We’ll pursue getting the best sound we can and that includes fixes and tweaks. 

Now we tend to get carried away in the process and go deep into the woods but still see just a tree or two as opposed to seeing the entire forest. That’s a good point to pump the breaks and reassess…do I continue to add crap in an attempt to make a mediocre component sound better than it possibly can or do I stop and just upgrade that component? Realizing when that is is what will get you to the next level. We’re all guilty of missing that mark…

Didn’t mean to get philosophical here but that’s about how I look at it. You may see it differently. 

@vinylvalet 

The first switch was a Cisco 2960. Had mods done by audiophool.nl

Last month bought a Cisco SG110D switch. I needed one with a small footprint. Have sent it to Fidelity Audio in The UK. They have put one of their C4Mk2 clocks in it, and changed a couple of capacitors.

@jerrybj Thank you. Interesting.

@jerrybj

You have done some interesting stuff. But I haven’t heard you say anything about the differences you have hear in your system as a result of your changes. What have you observed? Reduction in noise floor? Dynamics? Small difference, big?