@wsrrsw Exciting yes! I hope it is worth it. Yes Marcin's English is so good it made me wonder if I had the right guy! :) I have an HDPLEX linear power supply with two outputs (two rails I think) One powers my Nucleus+ and the other powers my switch. Marcin first recommended I put the M12 directly in front of my Auralic Streamer. But when I clarified that I already had a switch where I needed a switch, he recommended putting it there - connecting my modem to my Nucleus and my two audio room runs. I will need to connect the M12 using their special cables to my longer runs with two of their NET Isolators. My longer runs to each room are standard Amazon Cat 7 cables.
Basic switch....should I upgrade?
I'm using a D-Link switch into a EtherRegen (with an AfterDark PSU & Clock) via a Signature Ethernet Cable. Coming out of the EtherRegen I use a basic fiber optic cable into my streamer. (All connects/cables not mentioned are upgraded.)
Simply put, should I upgrade the switch or does the fantastic EtherRegen clean up the switch's audio shortcomings?
Please don't tell me to get a TT!
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@fastfreight Welcome to the M12 KoolAid club. I also had a lot of back and forth emails. Marcin’s English is excellent. What did you do for power? You saved a few hundred USD as the Euro is sluggish My unit should be here in two-three weeks. The old D-Link seems like decades ago. The EtherRegen will get placed into a whole house “B-” system. |
@lollipopguild - I have not tried Eno but I have Muon and do not think it is analytical. I actually have two! Rich at Network Acoustics could help you with differences. I do not use fiber. I would have an EtherRegen in front of both, but I only have one! I have swapped it back and forth and I can hear the difference for the better with the ER in front of the Muon filter. Plus I need a switch to go to my Apple TV, so the ER does that on the A side as well. @antigrunge2 @wsrrsw @jerrybj - after many emails with Marcin at JCAT, I have ordered an M12 switch with four of their 1m cables. One to my Modem, one to my Nucleus+, and one to each of my audio room cables (family room and basement), This will replace my Silent Angel Bonn8 switch. Oh my I can't wait! Ken
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@antigrunge2 . I'm going through the same. I think my USB is pretty good, but I'm still seeing some digital noise (apparent mostly in sibilance), so am focusing now on ethernet stage. I've tried Eno, and cheap fiber bridge, but both too analytical. So, I've bought an iFi iPower Elite for my Netgear Orbi Satellite - it's the only viable route open to me. And have a Sotm dbl-cat7u cable on order. Their cables, by consensus, seem to offer the best bet of de-digitalising the sound. And once I have a decent cable in place I'm hoping to try either the EtherRegen or a decent fiber setup. |
I had been considering a network switch for a while. Bought a modded one from Audiophool.nl (he sold me a Ciso 2960). When it arrived, I realised I needed something with a smaller footprint. Thought the 2960 could then go at the modem end of the house. Had been considering the Fidelizer Etherstream for its size and effectiveness. Looked at buying the same switch - the Cisco SG110D - and getting it modded. Liked that it had a 12v input. Had been discussing options with Brent at fidelityaudio.co.uk for a few weeks. Noticed they had modded that model. Asked him about the Fidelizer mods. In his view the most effective ones were replacing a capacitor and adding a clock. Decided to get the Fidelity Audio C4Mk2 installed at £290. Bought a cheap SG110D from eBay UK for £35. Had an old 12v Teradak linear power supply, with a Ghent Audio DC cable and a cheap AMR Gold fuse.
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Cleaning up ethernet ahead of the streamer (InnuOS Zenith Mk3)unfortunately is a lot of trial and error. In my case I started by adding a Zerozone power supply to my Etherregen and using an Antelope10m clock to reclock. I subsequently added DXE filters and a LHYaudio LPS/reclocked switch ahead of the Etherregen. Furthermore switching from thin gauge cat6 to heavy gauge cat 8 Onti cables with Telegartner connectors made a big difference. A lot of people argue to go optical into the server. In my experience this results in an over analytical, thinned out sound. As a starting point upgrading the router and its power supply is equaly worthwhile. It is frankly disappointing that after 15 years of streaming nobody seems to have found a universal solution, that said I am intrigued by the InnuOS Phoenix Ethernet. |
@jerrybj How did you come up with those mods and build please? Did you put it together yourself? What’s the overall cost? I’m not asking for my self but we know there’s more than just a little bit of interest in ethernet improvement from the old blue cable. |
Plugged in my modded network switch over the weekend. A Cisco SG110D-8. Modded by adding a C4Mk2 clock from Fidelity Audio. Initially couldn’t get sound from the streamer over ethernet. Switched to wifi to check connections/settings. Got it working. Had a quick listen. Back to ethernet, and an immediate and big improvement in sound. Upon further listening, it was ’jaw dropping,’
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@lalitk Yah...who would have thought fiber wouldn't be the end all? Checked out you system. Wow! Good on you. (My Dad had Tannys and my mom in a deserved fit of anger gave them away along with the rest of the excellent stereo.) I'm guessing you might have been to a certain La Verne, California destination?. |
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@lalitk Got the Ubiquity Switch Enterprise 8 PoE (Layer 3, PoE switch with (8) 2.5GbE, PoE+ RJ45 ports and (2) 10G SFP+ ports.) Now used else where in house. |
@wsrrsw - Thanks for the response |
@boxer12 I’m using this one .6 meter very short out of ERegen and a 40’ in that was needed to get to where stereo stuff is into the ERegen . Can’t get to gear any other way except a wireless solution. |
@wsrrsw - Interesting... I got a nice boost in SQ when going with fiber. What brand & length of ethernet cable before & after the EtherRegen are you using? |
Perhaps at this point this update will be a needed soporific. I used the enterprise switch with a fiber optic out into to an EtherRegen and then out of Regen into ye old steamer with a dang fine ethernet cable. Sound was very very clean...a bit too clean. So..... Removed switch (again this time a "good" one) and tried EtherRegen first with ethernet cable in and fiber optic out and then with ethernet in and ethernet out. With my gear the all ethernet sounds best. YMMV Clean any and every thing a reap the rewards. Maybe even get a gold star?
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Ok: My Update after a lot of kind help here, dowsing, pontificating, Dunning-Kruger deprogramming, reading, writing and arithmetic (or something like that). 1.) Alex (co-birth father of the EtherRegen) is beyond nice and helpful. I had emailed him about power supplies for the EtherRegen. He asked me what I was using and I told him an AfterDark: Linear Power Supply x 2. FULL STOP. I had written to him as the AfterDark: Linear Power Supply was hot to the touch and I thought something wasn’t quite right (it powered both the AfterDark clock and EtherRegen). He told me not to use the AfterDark: Linear Power Supply x 2 to power the EtherRegen as it canceled out functionality. How right he was! Using both power taps was the problem. Into the EtherRegen went an iFi iPower Elite - Low Noise Power Supply Adapter (12V). My wife came into the listing area and (unasked) told me the sound was better and what had I done? (This from the woman who’s eyes roll back into her noggin when I even get close to the outer phalanxes of all things stereo.) Better as in Wowzeer. Additionally the AfterDark power supply is cool to the touch. 2.) The other thing Alex told me was to run fiber/SPF (and to use Single mode fiber optic cable.) from a switch with SPF into the EtherRegen as that’s the best way for the cleanest signal. I got an Enterprise one from Ubiquiti. Bam. |
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Great reply! In my view there are 3 key ways to deal with noise in a system 1. Power source: conditioning, cables, distribution 2. Ethernet: isolation, cabling, conditioning, devices 3. Grounding In terms of value, judge an etheenet product against spending the same on something else that addresses these 3 things. Pricing is typically comparable to the benefit a product provides to a system, so comparisons to other audio gear help determine price/value. In addition, manufacturers will charge as much as they think the market will pay for their brand. My spend on ethernet has been the very high value for money for me. I also have excellent power and grounding solutions, the power gear cost by far more the grounding and Ethernet, and the ethernet has cost the least. |
I hear you, the market is now flooded with audiophile switches. I am not going to debate on what’s the best price/performance or bang for the buck as this varies in the context of one’s system and each individual perspective. I have spent $8K in my Ethernet switch / LAN cables and LPS setup. To me, that’s a bargain considering the performance upgrade and overall investment in my digital front end. |
@ lalitk
What I meant it’s hard to judge value. I’m interested in bargains- components that punch above their price point. For instance, if a reviewer has significant experience with many various amps, they can identify sonic bargains. Many of the audiophile switch reviews compares to a Cisco switch which tells me nothing. And another review said Ansuz was better than English Electric- but Ansuz is much more expensive. Seems audiophile switch performance is closely tied to price, so trying to find the best price/performance seems difficult |
@thyname well, the article is way off the mark. Especially the first paragraph where it says it applies to all digital connections. What they are talking about can apply under some circumstances to asynchronous digital connections without error detection and correction. Ethernet is synchronous, and has error detections, but that is just one layer, the next layer also have error detection, call IP, then you have TCP, also have error detection and correction, and lastly, you have the application layers, also have error detection and correction. So it doesn’t apply. Second, no human card here a different of 1 ns. You need to get into 300 to 400 ms, or 300,000 or 400,000 times larger difference before human hearing can register an issue. and, clock rates don’t work like that in switches. If you want to learn about that very low level detail, have fun, here is a place to start:
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@thyname +1! Thank you for that post. Should settle a fair amount of the debate over whether we can, or are 'scientifically' able to hear what we hear. |
IMO, best explanation on what an audio specific switch does (or claims to do, if you are on the zeroes and ones camp) is from Uptone:
‘Truth be told, it was the very first audiophile switch, and very successful. The rest of the manufacturers, took note, and came up with their own switches, often way more expensive. Granted, these audiophile switches obviously do nothing according to the network technicians, so I wonder who buys all these expensive switches 😉
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From Darko review of the Telegartner M12 switch: The manufacturer won’t disclose any details apart from this [presumably machine translated from Japanese]: ‘Our M12 Switch Gold is not bound with those specifications of data transfer and electrical characteristics as a switching hub. Therefore, it is difficult to evaluate by a simple comparison with those for commercially available ones. PCs, various network boards, switching hubs and routers are network equipment that transmits and receives various data, but become a signal source of transmitting and receiving unnecessary radio wave and noise (= subtle current) simultaneously. A very high level of consideration is required to sweep these negative aspects. The M12 Switch Gold uses aborbers and suppressors for that reason. The negativeness in various aspects such as EMI/EMC, electro-static field, induction, noise caused by subtle vibration of the chassis is taken into consideration, and the model design including various mechanical features and its assembly procedure is determined. To realise these, absorbers and suppression parts are adopted in the model, and torque management takes place in various spots during the assembly. The round M12 X-coded connectors added a positive effect. These are aimed for getting rid of a negative influence from the M12 Switch Gold to other pieces of connected network equipment such as supurious emission and transmission noise generated by the M12 Switch Gold, as well as for protecting the switch itself if an external inductive or electro-static influence comes in. Our thought that the M12 Switch Gold could be used for network audio came from the above-mentioned features.’” |
@fredrik222 As I said there is the ethernet digital, and something else. Really I was just popping in here to suggest people consider SFP+ switches and to highlight that audiophile switches not only do the digital as required but some also seem to deal with the 'something else' to varying degrees. Sorry, I don't have the energy to debate here. Ultimately it will lead to what people believe is possible. |
Thank you. Choosing an audiophile network switch is confusing. Many new audiophile switches have come to market at various price points. Researching switches sonic performance based on empirical comparisons seems the only way I can judge price/performance. The Telegärtner M12 switch was reportedly the best at one point, but at $4k… |
@kennyc while I personally don’t like Cisco, you can typically find cheap Ciscos on eBay, like the 2960G mentioned above. the current version of my switches are Juniper EX2300-C https://www.juniper.net/us/en/products/switches/ex-series/ex2300-c-fanless-switch.html |
@dbastin of course the digital signal is transmitted using analog electrical signal over copper, however, it doesn’t change that it is digital, and noise floor only is relevant to make sure that the frame made it across intact. It is pretty simple, each Ethernet frame has a CRC check, if it passes the check, the frame is accepted, if it doesn’t, the frame is discarded. So, if you have enough interference, for instance, by taping batteries to your cables, you will have a higher rate of discarded frames, that the higher level protocols need to correct for, typically by asking for a retransmit. |
@sns If you are not already aware, the SFP modules and FMC make a difference. Some people even say single mode is better than multi mode and the length makes a difference. But one thing for sure, fibre does not collect or transmit noise. In my network, replacing a generic fs.com FMC with EtherRegen was a worthwhile improvement. Perhaps Sonore Optical Module would be as good there, but I had ER on hand. Fibre > NTD > Cat 6a UTP > EtherRegen > fibre > Mikrotik CRS 305 (router) > audio grade Cat 6a > Server > audio grade Cat 7 > WAP > - wifi - > Devialet Who would’ve thought it would make any difference there? Take note, there is no switch downstream of the router. The SFP+/10Gbe router/switch really makes s big difference for the better. It is not the speed it is the specification for that speed that seems to really matter for audio. I have my CRS running at 100Mb. But patience and learning is needed to set it up. I am not a network technician, but managed to get it done with some help. Also, need to be careful about the how cable sheilds are terminated. Not all audio grade cables use the same approach.
@fredrik222 I hear what you are saying and hear it many times. However, it appears that as well as the digital encoding in ethernet transmission, there is something else that is detrimental to audio. I have seen it explained that the digital code is carried by analog signal which also transmits ’noise’. That noise also may affect each device differently. Hence trial and error is needed to discover which cables best suit particular devices. I wish it were easier, easy works but gets mediocre results, and that may be satisfying sound, but not as excellent or optimal as it could be. |
@thyname at a high level, yes, there is nothing you can do. If you have a low quality switch, you will lose packets if you load it, that will impact sound quality. If you tape anything generating magnetic fields to the Ethernet cable, you will likely lose packets, also improving the sound quality.
as for your email to China. While a completely different protocol at a much higher level, similar principles, if you have punctuation issues, that is all about the what’s in front of the keyboard. 100%. I have unfortunately had to prove that one too many times to think it is funny. |
@fredrik222 : so to sum it up, what you are teaching all here with the Ethernet protocol is either it works, or it doesn’t, correct? As long as Zeroes and Ones come as such, we are fine? There is absolutely nothing to gain or lose SQ wise by optimizing the Ethernet in any shape or form?
Is this the reason why when I send a long email to China, the recipient gets the email intact, not missing any words, and not even missing any punctuation marks (I.e a comma comes as a dot)? Right? |
@sns you are applying ANALOG terms to a digital connection. Completely irrelevant. Noise floor in Ethernet only means did it transmit a clear enough signal to discern a 1 or a 0, and did the frame add up in the end to match the CRC check. so, for someone who knows what is actually going on, it is very simple. All the stuff you are talking about is just things that simply doesn’t have an impact at all, never ever. |
I only wish it was as easy as @fredrik222 says it was. Per usual we have so many configurations, @fsonicsmith and @dbastin both provided some good generalizations. Regardless of what the objectivists say, obvious we hear differences with streaming setups, not our imaginations, confirmation bias or some other nebulous psychological explanation for it. As to switches, I've probably not seen a more argued about streaming component, results all over the place. IME, it was the single most awful thing I ever added to my many streaming setups over the years. In many cases, I simply don't see the value of them. The vast majority of us already have routers in our setups, so the switch is only being added to the router, certainly the switch has potential to drop noise floor relative to router, but you still have the noisy router prior to the switch, can't get back what you've already lost, and you're adding complexity and cables, more chances for RFI and EMI, so there goes noise floor. The other use for switch as I see it, is for those going to separate streamer/server route. Most servers don't have two ethernet ports, ie., switch is needed to connect to streamer. Again, more complexity and added chance for EMI/RFI. And I do see the advantage of why one would want to separate streamer from server as vast majority of servers do poor job of rendering, what with non-optimized port implementation.
And so my contention, in either of above cases, why not stick to router only setup, minimizes complexity and possible added noise. The router can be powered by lps, go into quality power conditioner with quality power cord, shield the router with EMI/RFI blocker, good to go. The switch only makes sense to me if one is no longer using router, at least in an audio setup. Now, I will grant many need switches because router may not provide enough ports, still aren't there routers with more ports? And how about audiophile router for us who need wifi in house?
@dbastin I do hear colorations with optical. I've had a variety of generic FMC powered by various lps, power cords and power condtioners. With every single add on there are slightly different sound qualities. The generic FMC's have poor quality voltage regulation and clocks, result is internally induced noise and jitter, both have affect on sound quality. The quality of lps, power cords and power conditioning can help minimize these negatives. Best optical I've heard is Sonore OpticalRendu powered by Uptone JS2, quality power cord and into my balanced transformer power conditioner, no color I can discern, easily best streaming component ever tried.
As to my switch experiment, this vs. two generic FMC, both lps, quality power cords and going into power conditioner. Both between router and server. FMC easily preferable to audiophile switch, both have lower noise floor, but FMC far more spacious, natural sound stage and imaging. On downside, FMC vs nothing between router and server, FMC sounds slightly less spacious, more constricting, not as free flowing as router direct to server. FMC more resolving but at price of sounding less analog, slight thinning out of sound. Acoustic Network Muon filter is next in line for audiophile switch vs FMC vs optimized ethernet battle in feed from router to server. |
@fredrik222 Thank you. |
@vinylvalet I did, on the first page, somewhere below the middle. |
"Went back to fiber optic cable and now I think that sounds cleaner.' It seems to me ... Noise = distortion = color So No noise = no distortion = colorless = clean There are plenty of other things between the streamer and speakers (and your ears) that add color, I'd say ethernet should not. For info, my chaIn which has evolved from much trial and error is ... Fibre > NTD > Cat 6a UTP > EtherRegen > fibre > Mikrotik CRS 305 (router) > audio grade Cat 6a > Server > audio grade Cat 7 > WAP > - wifi - > Devialet NTD = interface between national broadband network and home network. Server is Antipodes EX which has a 2 port switch built in, each port has separate PHY and feed from CPU. Devialet's wifi is extremely good! |
@fredrik222 Please share your network and streaming configuration with us. |
@car123 there is no real setting up of a switch (it will sense data flow). If you have the 8 port you just connect the existing lan side cable (going back to your main internet/network/router) to the port on the right by the sfp port (port 8). Then connect your other devices to ports 1-7 (computer, streamer, etc) |
@fastfreight as I am sure you are aware, Cat8 has better shielding than Cat6/a, so if you are worried about interference, good choice. just don’t attach batteries to them to try and introduce interference! :)
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@jerrybj not my opinion, facts. You don’t have to take that into consideration, for sure, but do not call my knowledge opinions. That is offensive when you make up stuff to do that is in the manual for every Ethernet based device NOT to do. |