Baffled and Frustrated: Streaming/DAC Sound Issues

@clearthinker. The page that we are looking at here has been smashed into loads of tiny little packets of data and put back together again.

Also, there is an underlying implication in your posts that it is digital alone that has insurmountable problems. Two observations on that:

First - Digital audio has been massively improved over the decades and the issues you refer to such as clocking accuracy have been commensurately improved.

Secondly, it's not as if there aren't fundamental problems with vinyl reply including warped and off centre record pressings, noise of various kinds, limited channel separation of phono cartridges, tracking distortion etc. That is aside from the fact that many pressings are of poor quality and that audio quality declines progressively as pressing runs extend.

There is no perfect medium for audio recording and reproduction, but thanks to the efforts of scientists and engineers both digital and analogue are improving. In both cases, at the state of the art level incremental, improvements are very expensive.

Just for context, my vinyl system consists of a Clearaudio Innovation TT/Univeral Tonearm, VdH Crimson Cartridge and Passlabs XP27 phono stage - so I am not anti-analogue/vinyl.

FYI, I owned a Aurlic Aries G2 for about a year. While I didn’t have this problem, I had problems and go tired of them. I moved to Aurender and now own two, and have even better sound quality and no problems, 

Thank you all for the responses.  Hopefully I’m getting back to all your questions.  I’ve been traveling this past week so I’m a little behind on testing all suggestions/providing updates.

@tony1954 My original issue with the Aries G2.1 was twofold: crappy initial USB cable and settings on the Aries that caused a dirty vinyl-like popping noise.  Eventually found the secret-sauce to get good sound.  The Aavik was added just after (intended to bring it all to another level but that has not yet worked out). Also, yes, I would be concerned that my DAC was simply boycotting crappy music if the issue only came up playing 80s hair-metal. Unfortunately, there are problems with numerous genres so I will need to address it. 

@phastm3 I’ve tried running with and without ARC (room correction) and the issue is identical

@audioman58 Issue has been identical with two USB cables, only difference is one cable is much higher quality than the other. I’d be pretty surprised if this is a cable issue.

@audphile1 same problem w/ w/o Roon and ARC room correct. I’ve been traveling so I haven’t been able to test out your suggestions regarding upsampling etc.. on the Aries.  I’ll be testing that one I get back home this weekend.

@wlutke I suspect you’re on the right track checking V rms (a term I needed to google).  There might be a compatibility issue Aavik DAC to Anthem STR.  The noise sounds like it’s “overloaded” creating significant distortion on some, but not all, tracks.

@erik_squires thanks for the suggestion, I’ll try that out and report back

@brewerslaw so…any updates?

@audphile1  mentioned making sure sample rate in Roon settings match what your DAC is capable of, and this was a problem I had.  Better matching of those levels fixed it for me.  Worth a try.

I’ve just been reading about "intersample overs" and how they can cause some dacs to "spaz out" on certain tracks. I vaguely understand that if there is a sample that corresponds to minus zero dB in the digital signal, or close to it, the resulting analog waveform can actually exceed minus zero dB, which can cause the output stage to go into clipping or compression. Some dacs have headroom to handle it, some don’t. This matches my experiences, where I’ve had to digitally attenuate some tracks by as much as 6dB to avoid clipping lights coming on.

The dacs that spaz on these overly compressed or too loudly recorded tracks can be called "revealing." One argument is that this is all the fault of the recording because anybody who actually knows what they are doing would never include samples approaching so closely to minus zero dB. We have lots of headroom in digital so there’s no need for it.

 

clearthinker

Wikepedia:    A Fourier transform (FT) is a mathematical transform ...

Oh, I understand what a Fourier Transform is, and that it's a theorem, not a theory. I understand both how it works with digital (conceptually) and I understand why the same principle applies to the squiggles in a vinyl LP. You appear to understand neither.

I am given to believe that it is impossible to remove clock error entirely.  Hence my comment that the pieces cannot be put together again correctly.

I understand that you hold certain beliefs. Digital audio is not intuitive - at least not for most of us - so it can take some understanding to reveal that belief and fact can be two different things.

Did you watch the video? it kinda blows apart your theory, doesn't it?

The reason this stuff is important is because digital audio is not perfect and if we want to improve it, we won't be successful by trying to remedy imaginary faults.

@cleeds 

Wikepedia:    A Fourier transform (FT) is a mathematical transform that decomposes functions into frequency components, which are represented by the output of the transform as a function of frequency. Most commonly functions of time or space are transformed, which will output a function depending on temporal frequency or spatial frequency respectively. That process is also called analysis. An example application would be decomposing the waveform of a musical chord into terms of the intensity of its constituent pitches. The term Fourier transform refers to both the frequency domain representation and the mathematical operation that associates the frequency domain representation to a function of space or time.

You can read above that the Fourier Transform decomposes the signal.  The example given is the decomposition of the waveform of a musical chord.  That is exactly what I said.

In analogue audio, the waveform is not decomposed.

Clock error in a DA converter is the timing error in recomposing the analogue waveform from the decomposed waveform for expression by an analogue music system.  I am given to believe that it is impossible to remove clock error entirely.  Hence my comment that the pieces cannot be put together again correctly.

All the cheap oscilloscopes in the world cannot change this.  Nor is their definition fine enough to reproduce the results of clock error.

 

@cleeds when I read that post I knew that is the battle not worth fighting. 
@erik_squires good suggestion!

@clearthinker 👍 good deal

clearthinker

...the problem is caused by breaking up the analogue signal into billions of tiny fragments that cannot be correctly reassembled ... It would seem no-one can solve this - the issue is 40 years old and there is no solution in sight ...

That is not at all how digital audio works. There’s "no solution in sight" because the analog signal is not broken up "into billions of tiny fragments."

The basis of digital audio is the Fourier Transform. The theorem that makes digital audio work is the same math that describes how analog audio works. Believe it or not.

Here’s a video that actually demonstrates this.

 

This can happen due to upsampling exceeding the dynamicange of the format.  Use Roons headroom settings to reduce by ~2db.

@audphile1 

I still take the view that the problem is caused by breaking up the analogue signal into billions of tiny fragments that cannot be correctly reassembled.  This is the origin of dither and clock error.  It would seem no-one can solve this - the issue is 40 years old and there is no solution in sight apart from accepting the problem and reducing it by engineering.

As to starting vinyl from scratch, many older audiophiles are disposing of vast numbers of vinyl albums, either on downsizing or when their ability to listen comes to an end, one way or the other.  There is a plentiful supply - that's where I got most of mine from.  Many are near mint because we cannot play all our LPs very often and we look after them when we do.

I have also written that many audiophiles obsess about record-cleaning to an unnecessary extent or even ridiculous extent.

@clearthinker

To get an analog FE that equals the performance of this level of digital will probably cost north of $10,000. The price for a good pressing new vinyl is now about $30-$40 per on average. The used ones are an effort to get in mint condition and some cost thousands of dollars depending on album and pressing, Add record cleaning and all other accessories to this and it will add up quicklly.

For a price of 1 good new vinyl record you can have a month of both Qobuz and Tidal with hundreds of thousands of albums at your fingertips.

Please enlighten us how starting with vinyl from scratch is a practical advice?

@clearthinker 

"it would appear no-one else understands these systems either. "

No one said digital was easy. 

No one said that trying to solve someone's issues from across the country was easy.

What no one said was that because digital isn't super easy and because digital sometimes has problems, I am going to quit and go home.

That's not sage and practical advice, that's living in the past.

 

@tony1954 

Well, Tony after this thread has been up 3 days, it would appear no-one else understands these systems either.  Indeed others are saying they have the same kind of issues.

Hence my sage and practical advice.  Clear thinking.  If not from a master digital engineer, of which there seem to be none who can solve this.

@brewerslaw

I have experience with Auralic (Aries G1) and Roon

I would check the following -

1. make sure Device Setup in Roon has: Fixed volume; Sample rate that corresponds to your DAC; DSP disabled; Do not enable upsampling; Clock priority default
2. Auralic settings have: upsampling disabled; proper sampling rate set that corresponds to your DAC in the Auralic set up for DAC and streaming services n
3. no speaker placement/room correction in Auralic;
4. make sure your ethernet connection to Auralic is solid. Wifi or wired needs to be solid.

Also worth trying the Auralic’s Lightning DS without Roon.

If you continue to experience issues, swap to a different type of connection between Auralic and DAC. If issues persist your streamer or dac don’t gel or one or both of these components are faulty.

My streaming system is Tidal thru Roon to an Anthem STR. I’ve found there are some files Tidal sends across (and Qobuz before) that just sound bad; often when the file label says it’s been remastered. Never a problem with the 1700 CDs I imported locally to stream thru Roon. 

 

Maybe you’re just getting mangled content sometimes?  Do the same tracks always sound bad?  Or do they sound good one day and bad then next?

Swap out some cables to try to find the culprit, whether new cable or try changing topologies (USB, Co-ax, optical).....hopefully that will help you narrow it down. The Morrow cables in general are excellent cables, so the quality should not be the issue.....unless it's damaged. The Reference USB is a very good cable that I used for quite a while, though I've since switched to a Supra Excalibur USB cable that I prefer.

@brewerslaw 

I’ve had some of the same issues. I chalked it up to not everything you stream is of the highest quality. Who is your streaming service?

audioguy85 - you also have inferior sound quality right from the start, from both lp’s and cassettes.  CD is not up to the same quality as High-Res streaming, but I can’t tell a difference when listening to both.

Try putting in another higher quality usb cable . Borrow one if possible .

i willnot use wifi for digital I use from theNewer 3.1 Docsis Motorola 8702 modem - router its 4x faster then 3.0, much bigger buffer and use a LPS on it much better sound and smoother ,i use Sonore Deluxe Ethernet to fiber optic much lower noise floor. 

Are you running room correction with the Anthem? Maybe the anthem is converting the signal to digital again to perform it’s room correction, then using it’s inferior dac to convert it again to analog.

I don’t have any of these problems when using my lp's, cd’s, and cassette tapes....😁

I have the exact problem I know the sound of which you speak. I use RP or Amazon with an optical cable and BluOS. That little crunch will drive you crazy and it appears out of nowhere when your set up is working fine so…nbad wire maybe…just today I tore everything down and changed power cords mostly..for now it is gone. I think it might be the wi fi service tho…this one sux my friend..

Try another DAC for troubleshooting.

@brewerslaw

Just curious, but exactly what was the issue with the Aries that was "hammered out"?

Despite what you think about the USB, I would swap it for either another USB or a coaxial cable, just to eliminate it as a suspect.

Like playing Clue.

@tony1954 ,

Good one! 😆

@clearthinker 

"Junk this digital crap and get some LPs or else become Albert Einstein"

Just because you can't understand something is no reason to call it crap.

Not very clear thinking I would say.

Hmmm.....

Pink Floyd sounds great.

Motley Crue sounds like garbage.

Perhaps your Morrow cable has become sentient and has good taste in music.

@clearthinker you can never go over my head. Maybe between my knees or around my ankles. 

And that was not what you said. You were being a total jackass!

Now go back to your Close and Play. Oh, and I have a great digital FE as well as Analog. 

@jerryg123 

Sorry.  What is 'douchey'.  Is this a shower for a Frenchman?

What I was saying is that all the digital problems are caused by smashing the analogue music into billions of tiny pieces and then worrying why you can't put them back together again.  Because you can't.

I was suggesting that even highly intelligent engineers are still failing to find a way to do it.

Sorry for going over your head.

@clearthinker Why?

That was no help at all and kind of douchey. 

Junk this digital crap and get some LPs

or else become Albert Einstein

Junk this digital crap and get some LPs

or else become Albert Einstein

I would switch to the coax input. 

I have distortion similar to @designsfx but with single ended  connections.  It vanishes if I lower the volume at the streamer and raise it via the pre.  It's an over driven pre situation.  

The  Aavik D280 puts out 4.5 V rms = 6.363 peak.  

Use the HDD or USB drive to play stored files so you can isolate the problem to only streaming/ROON.

If problem persists change USB cable.

Still persists, it's the DAC.

@jerryg123  I have used the same USB cable for other connections with great success but haven’t tried another cable from Aries to Aavik. My recollection of the Morrow USB reference cable is it’s a solid core, small gauge, insulated wire.

Haven’t tried anything with a clock/usb regen.

@brewerslaw 

I’m not sure if this will be the equivalent of what you’re experiencing as I haven’t heard your setup BUT my dac developed an issue after a couple of years where there was audible distortion when certain tracks were played. It wasn’t consistent other than to say it was repeatable on specific tracks. Also- it only occurred when using the balanced outputs. Single ended and USB were fine. 
This occurred when very heavy low end frequencies were present and as well on certain heavily compressed recordings. It eventually drove me so crazy I sent the Dac back to Italy for repair. 

You have a very nice system, have you tried switching out the usb to the G.2 and your DAC? 
Is the usb solid core?

External clock/usb regen?