Bad recordings and high end audio

The idea is to play the music you like. Tune your system so that the trash albums sound acceptable. In the Led Zip example, you are going to have to turn it UP! Led Zep I and II can crank but it wont ever sound like a top shelf record. 

I am always rocking it with my Maggie's 3.7i and love them. Even the so called bad recordings sound good with great equipment. With Zep I will usually go to the first 2 on the Page remastered CDs but still enjoy the vinyl. Let your ears do the listening there is always something new to discover with each new play.

Of course people listen to all kinds of recordings good and not so good. A good hifi just let’s you hear whatever is there better. Including differences in remasters of those recordings popular enough to warrant remastering. A good hifi will let you hear differences in various Led Zeppelin releases mastered in different ways as well. If you like the music you should like it even better on a good hifi. Unless the details don’t matter to you and any version is then a good one no matter what it is heard on.

I do find I sometimes prefer listening to some "lesser" quality recordings on a "lesser" quality secondary system...a great system can magnify faults...some stuff I only like in the car...

Two things to consider.  How loud do you like to listen?  A system that sound great at 95dB may not be the one you prefer at 75dB.  Does your system have tone controls?  Decent tone controls will not make bad recordings great, but they will make them more enjoyable.

Thank you for the quick responses!! Still trying to decide on the other components to go with the 3.7is. There is plenty of information and opinions about that subject on these forums. Unfortunately, the place that had the Maggies had limited options. I do enjoy details of course, I would need to dive in regarding how to use tone controls effectively if my system has them. Is this an important function when I am searching for a preamp or integrated? I think I would have a tendency to  do what was suggested and listen to Led Zeppelin…loud!. Logic told me that i will enjoy all music on my new system, maybe some types better than others. I know there always is a sacrifice. I was just hoping that i did not miss some huge point and all of a sudden I only enjoyed Led Zeppelin through my blue tooth speaker better lol. 

Choosing electronic components are key in enjoying your speakers. For the better part of the last fifty years I have had very revealing planar speakers and have always needed to be cautious of pairing with overly revealing components and making a lot of recordings sound bad… yes, easy to do with planars. I would recommend shying away from components with the words “very revealing”, or “extremely detailed”. A tube preamp… like a new or used Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VAC… etc… whether individual or integrated would be very high end and not harsh. 

I have faced this repeatedly and always needed to be a step back from most revealing or harshness and poor recordings will take over. The Led Zeplin vinyl is good. I have original and audiophile pressings. I’ll listen to the streaming versions later today and see what I think of them. You can click on my user I’d to see my systems… and hence my inclination,

I was at Mike Lavigne’s a week ago. Mike has master tapes (dubbed, obiously, not original) and played Led Zeppelin. Rest assured, this is NOT a "horrible" recording!   

It is insanely good. There was at one point a particularly incredible guitar screech that made me gasp. Takes a lot to make me gasp. From behind I heard Mike, "As God intended it." Indeed. That is the kind of recording this is. 

Every time I think my expectations of in-store sales are as low as they can go something comes along makes me lower the bar yet again.

If you enjoy driving around being a pita to people who clearly have other better things to do, and who more likely than not will spew nothing but blather, all in order to limit yourself to what few random components happen to be in your area, well then, knock yourself out.

Hope you enjoy it. Hope it works for you.

Myself, I know if I did that then I would have NONE of what I have today. NONE. Not one single thing. Instead I would have nothing but dreck. Absolute dreck.

This is my insight. Stop wasting time with people who do nothing but waste your time. Stop limiting yourself to what few things happen to be nearby. Stop paying retail. Focus on direct sales manufacturers like Tekton, Raven, Decware, Bottlehead, Townshend, Origin Live, etc. Focus on reviews. Within reviews, focus on listening impressions. Within listening impressions focus on emotional involvement. Within emotional involvement look for non-audiophile types who are moved to tears- or experienced audiophiles who say they are done looking now that they have this. Whatever "this" may be. Now you have hit the motherlode. And all without leaving home. Been doing it this way going on 15 years now. Only way to fly.

I don't see that you mentioned your source-- vinyl?  CD?  Streaming ?
If we knew this, it would be easier to make suggestions. 

As mentioned, the better the sytem, the more resolving it will be-- in other words, the more information it will deliver to your ear. Good recordings will sound better and poor recordings will sound worse. 

As mentioned, you can tune your system to accomodate your listening preferences. There are other members who are much more knowledgeable that I am, but here's a list of factors, in no particular order:

1) The room. You may or may not be able to change its effect significantly, depending upon whether you have a dedicated listening room or not. 

Do not assume that a component will sound the same in your room as it does in a showroom !  !  ! 

2) If you are going digital, your DAC choice is extremely important as there can be wide differences in sonic presentation between them. 
I wouldn't rush into purchasing a DAC nor would I buy one I couldn't demo at home. 

3) Tone controls: You may want to choose an integrated amp with tone controls or else use a Schiit Loki or Lokius EQ.

4) Amplification. There is quite a wide range, from the "softest", most euphonic tube amps to the "dryest", most "clinical" solid state amps. In the middle of the range, there are tube amps and SS amps that exhibit the better attributes of both. There is also class D, about which I know nothing. Do a search on this site. 

4) Cables can make a big difference. This is a huge topic in and of itself!  

5) Vibration Control. I was using a Schiit Loki all the time before I stumbled upon a line of vibration control products that really worked in my system. I've subsequently sold the Loki. The harshness I'd previously  needed to tame with the EQ is no longer an issue. 

6) System Synergy. Choose components very carefully. You can't assume that any random combination of amplification, source, speaker and room will please your ears. Again, I'd suggest you purchase components from sellers who'll let you demo gear at home. Become educated re: the sonic attributes of various manufacturers. 

7) The sound in your head. What do you prefer? If you don't know, it's going to be much more challneging to assemble a system, that pleases you. Your comments suggest you're leaning more to the "musicality' side of the spectrum, as opposed to the "ruthlessly revealing" side. 

If this is true, you might consider either going with vinyl or with an r2r ladder DAC.

It’s true most Led Zeppelin is made to be played loud and a system needs to be able to do that clearly without distorting/clipping/fatigue  to deliver the intended effect best. A good example of where size and clean power matters. It takes a very good system to do that well in most save perhaps very small rooms. Matching components including speakers to room is key. All the things that audiophiles fret about matter even in the case of maximizing Led Zeppelin. Led Zeppelin is all about the power and energy of the music. The exact opposite say of perhaps a string quartet. Unfortunately I must point out that though Magnepans are wonderful speakers rock and pop music that excels based on power and dynamics like Led Zeppelin are not their forte and why I eventually parted with mine though I would still like to have a small pair around to use when the whim occurs.

My musical taste, like I am sure most people on here are all over the board. I love blues, , jazz,  solo voice and then I might want to listen to EDM. When I was younger, late 70s early 80s I heard some electrostats. I have had that sound implanted in my head since then. Thus the maggies. Yes, i know they are different then electrostats but I did get to compare some Martin Logans with maggies. So what is pleasing to me is detail and soundstage. Again, I am just getting back into my hobby and am trying my best to explain my thoughts. In hindsight, I wish I would not of skipped 25 years.   I have vinyl, a ton, but also would like to stream. My room is medium size ( 20x14) and empty, so I can do what I want in there. My initial thoughts are to pair a tube preamp with a SS amp. So many variables it is overwhelming , however I figure I need to start somewhere lol.  I must say I have watched so many stinking video reviews and spent hours on the forum. I agree to extend regarding storefronts. Limited brands, push their agenda ect. How often do you guys send stuff back  that  you buy direct? I do appreciate the input and patience in your responses, I know some of this is now second nature to you. 

Yes so many choices it can all be very confusing. You came to a good place here though to get a good sampling of what is possible. Maybe others here who live not far from you might offer to let you hear their stuff if you message them including myself. Also there are audio shows starting to go again now it seems and those are one of the best ways to get a wide sampling of what is possible in a short period of time.

@daydream816:

"My initial thoughts are to pair a tube preamp with a SS amp. So many variables it is overwhelming , however I figure I need to start somewhere lol. "

I don't know what your budget is but if you do not have unlimited funds, something you might want to consider is a Wells integrated. Jeff Wells designed his integrateds with the "SS amp + tube pre-amp" sound in mind. 

He sent me a demo unit (Magestic) to try out at home and he might be willing to do the same for you. 

http://www.wellsaudio.com/

As far as buying direct (or buying from sellers who offer trial periods with a return policy) and sending stuff back, I always do extensive  research before buying anything and have kept most of what I've bought, including my Wells integrated, Simaudio transport and Aqua DAC. 

Be aware that some sellers will penalize you if you return items in the form of restocking fees on subsequent purchases. Yes-- I'm talking about you, Music Direct! 

 There are quite a few options for buying cables direct and there is also The Cable Company. The latter will send you already burned-in cables to try out (whatever brand/model you're interested in). 

It is not hard, unless you make it hard. Experts here lined up to help! Audio has improved so much in 25 years you can throw a rock and hit something better. Even the Maggies. But then we get into the making it hard part. If you buy speakers that are highly sensitive and easy to drive this is such a huge advantage you cannot believe. This opens the door to very affordable yet incredibly high quality sound like a Raven Blackhawk. If you want a speaker that sounds every bit as good as a Maggie, and then some, AND is super easy to drive, listen to this guy. https://youtu.be/7RxRTFx6Cd0?t=342 Bear in mind he loves Maggies.

There are lots of trustworthy Maggie dealers. The one I frequent carries 20 ish brands of speakers in 8 large showrooms. Ditto for electronics. Dominant in his large local market, a true music lover with > 20 k records and blessed with good musical sense - he has access to any brand. Is he my only dealer relationship? No. Like most things, a mix of dealer, used and direct is the right answer.

The maggies require a strong well designed amplifier, suggest you get good advice on that.

Without a general budget the conversation is limitless.

Best to you on your renewed musical journey.

Jim

If you have the money go for Pass I currently run my 3.7i with a 250.8 the sound is outstanding. I picked up a gently used one and have had no problem only pleasure and enjoyment from the great combo. I saw the combo 3.7i and Pass won best of show a few years back which pointed me in that direction.

@daydream816- you have identified one of the challenges in this hobby- finding good copies of LPs of music that you like, rather than listening to "audiophile" recordings of music with good sonics that has no appeal to you.
Some of this is generational too-- there are audiophiles that listen almost exclusively to classical music, but that is literally a dying breed (and most classical records, with some exceptions) are not considered very desirable in the market today.
Leave aside running tape, which is a pretty expensive proposition for a lot of folks, not just in the hardware, but in the cost of the source material; this is a subject that @mikelavigne could probably address better than me, based on his own journey.
There is a decent sized segment of the audio community that is always trading tips on the sound of different pressings, Zep included. In fact, I probably have more copies of "challenged" records than I do of good sounding records.
Among those challenged records, there are differences--sometimes there are copies that sound dramatically better than others (e.g. the "RL" cut of LZII that you mentioned is one- preference is given not just to the cut, but the plant that pressed it-- Monarch being considered the most bombastic sounding). This takes you into the morass of seeking out more desirable pressings and using the RL/Monarch cut as an example, you will pay for the privilege, given inflation in the used record market. For some, this becomes a hobby unto itself.
I have a pretty good main system, and listen to a lot of different music--including a lot of the heavy hard rock/post psych/so-called proto-metal (which is what LZ tends to be grouped in today): Leaf Hound’s Growers of Mushroom has long been a 4 figure record as a UK first pressing, Lucifer’s Friend-self-titled on German Philips is of the same ilk and there are probably hundreds of bands from the period with a similar sound.
This opens up the possibility of exploring more, different music within the same genre--and yet another pursuit- for more obscure releases. (I would not put Leaf Hound in the obscure category only because it is a known "grail" due in part to price). Many people are savvy to the original UK Swirls of the first four Sabbath albums-- that label had some amazing (and weird) releases that command money today, but there is some cool stuff that is worth seeking out: e.g., Patto, May Blitz, and a few other bands in the "heavy" rock category, along with a pretty big roster of "deep" prog rock, e.g. Cressida, Affinity, and jazz rock, like Ian Carr, Nucleus, etc.
The better your system, the more differences you will hear among various pressings. Most of the original Vertigos are good sounding.
There is no easy answer to the question you pose- there are millions of records out there to be heard. Part of the journey for me has been one of exploration, not only of LPs from bands I know, but mining the vast catalogs of music that were unknown to me.
For the last several years, I’ve been listening to soul jazz and so-called spiritual jazz- post-bop, small combo jazz played by deeply accomplished sidemen who, in the ’70s, turned inward and composed and released music on smaller labels that drew on the black experience in America. Some of it is now super collectible but there’s a huge amount of material to be explored.
I can recommend generally the Tone Poet reissues---more offbeat older jazz albums that have been reissued with some care and are relatively cheap and for the most part still in print or easy to get.
I think this becomes a long, convoluted journey of self-exploration. I now listen to music that I would have considered cacophonous not too long ago. But it interests me and it’s not just good sonics, but a sort of fascinating time capsule of early funk and jazz, mixed with spoken word.
The learning curve is in some respects endless, but this is part of the pursuit for me, having less to do with finding gear, or records that sound good just to show off the system.
Treat it as an adventure!
Bill Hart

 

If you want a speaker that sounds every bit as good as a Maggie, and then some, AND is super easy to drive, listen to this guy. https://youtu.be/7RxRTFx6Cd0?t=342 Bear in mind he loves Maggies.

 Thanks for that video link. I enjoyed that interview.  The potentials of a tweeter array to provide better dispersion control and higher sensitivity without the need for a waveguide have fascinated me for a long time. I'm glad to see Tektron successfully implementing such designs at affordable prices. If I were in the market for a set of speakers right now I'd be interested. 

Good recordings will sound better and poor recordings will sound worse.

Be careful here. It should read: Good recordings will sound better and poor recordings will sound a lot better than they would on a bad system.

A good system let’s you hear what is in the recording. A lesser system won’t. It’s not always prettty but for me its almost always interesting to learn how all recordings are made differently and no two sound exactly the same.
To take this to extremes I digitize and stream old 78s on my system and even those are a revelation though nobody would claim these are good recordings by modern standards. On some there is almost as much surface noise as music. But the music is there, it’s very old and it’s very interesting as a result.

I received the same response from both stores which was “all Led Zeppelin recordings are horrible”

The 2014 remasters are...ok.
The Barry Diament remasters from the 90s are pretty good but sadly Barry didn’t get to do Led Zep IV.

The rest aren’t worth talking about and let’s not even get started on the infamous Mothership compilation!

Led Zep are just another one of many artists whose best sound is still to be found on vinyl, but we can always hope that things might change one day.

If you want a chuckle check out the Dynamic Range Database and you’ll find one of the highest rated Pop recordings on there to be the 1952 Fred Astaire Story!

You can’t blame digital. It’s a great format no doubt, but one that you might feel is being criminally misused if you regard sound quality as important.

https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/39630

Be careful here. It should read: Good recordings will sound better and poor recordings will sound a lot better than they would on a bad system.

This is more in line with what I think a good system should do. I've had systems that make some recordings sound supernaturally good at the expense of making others sound unlistenable. They never measure well.  If a system has flat, smooth, extended response with low levels of resonance and distortion it will tend to make everything sound better in my experience. 

Funny and ultimately sad story from the mid eighties ….

Super die hard Zep fan showed up at the store..wanted a system that could really rock. He left with a nice system with Hafler electronics and ADS 810 speakers. Returned it all the following week because his cherished Zeppelin didn’t sound “ right “ His reference was and remained the Kmart white plastic all in one GE sound system….

His roommate  was in a band i mixed sound for…the GE system reigned supreme some four years later…

His roommate  was in a band i mixed sound for…the GE system reigned supreme some four years later…

Well at least he liked what he had, and it was cheap! Lucky chap, I say.

I don't know your budget but Parasound A21+ or Parasound JC1s are the direction you want to take. Match that with a good tube preamp. Cary, Conrad Johnson, perhaps an ARC. This will get you where you want to be. 

"Be careful here. It should read: Good recordings will sound better and poor recordings will sound a lot better than they would on a bad system".

Maybe for vinyl but not in my experience, when it comes to CD playback, nor has it been the case for either of my two audio mentors, both of whom have been in the game a long time and have systems that cost many times more than mine. The better my system's become, the less I can endure listening to poor-sounding CDs. 

Perhaps we can simply agree to disagree in this case. ;o)

Bad recording blah, blah, sounds bad, blah, 
leppelin dont blah sound blah good. 
  Dude, I play old school metal demos from the 80’s. Sodom, napalm death, nasty savage, they all pretty much are the worst sounding stuff you can listen to,....sounds like they are playing from inside a aluminum garbage can.    Lots of older recordings on cd are just flat sounding, no depth, bass is flat, guitars are flat, etc etc. 

     play what you enjoy, and don’t worry about it, you are worrying way too much. 
  I have lots old pressing CDs, which are a direct copy from an old LP master, or straight copy from an old 4 or 8 track recording’s. 
 Press play and enjoy!

Rule 1.
Nothing sounds the same at home as it does in the store.
Why bother?
Are you listening to enjoy music,
OR,
recording quality?
If it is the latter you’d better be richer than most of us.

Led Zeppelin or "Classic Rock" from the 60-70's and beyond-

Stay away from forums and just enjoy kick ass music-LOUD whatever you gonna use as source.
You just won't get a cut and dry answer here or other forums.

Return with preference of format, maybe you can get a more focused answer.

Pretty safe to say the mighty Zeppelin is still preferred on a period EL PEE by many.
CD/File sound good on a proper setup  but..that's another thread subject. 

As mentioned, if one has the resources for R2R, you're gonna hear Page/Plant throw down like it's 1972.

A good system will extract the essence of poor recordings, they may not sound better but you should be more involved in them if that makes any sense?


BTW look at good sounding high current SS amps for your Maggies and congrats on the new speakers!

+1. @jond involvement is the thing. 

I pulled up a copy of Stairway to Heaven from Qobuz, it is remastered an 24bit/96khz. Sounds very good. But then I don’t have a ear bleeding kind of system.

Someone recommended a Pass amp. I think that would be a great choice, a pass x350.x would give the Maggie’s the most punch you are going to get from them. Couple that with the best Audio Research tube preamp and you would have the punch, detail and musicality of a great system. Assuming you have good sources of course. I owned a Pass x350 for over ten years with a ARC preamp and ribbon speakers. I have auditioned Maggie’s many times set up per my request. They sounded spectacular… just can’t get early exposure to electrostatics out of our mind, can we.

"...just can’t get early exposure to electrostatics out of our mind, can we..."

Maggies are planner magnetic or quasi ribbon if you prefer, not electrostatic. The more expensive models have ribbon tweeters. .

Wow! Thank you, thank you, thank you. You guys have  given me a ton of awesome suggestions and comments. I apologize as I did not stick a budget out there. I unfortunately do not have an unlimited budget. I would like to try and keep the rest of the system under 10k. I have a turntable to use. That would be the top of my current limit. This is a tough as I would like to do it less expensive then that. There are so many comments I like to acknowledge but can catch everyone. I did look at the Pass Lab stuff and thought they were out of my price range. Now I did not look at used stuff, I am open for that but would seriously be looking at your guys guidance. I can see myself collecting and searching for nice pressing as an extension of this hobby. Tape was always my dream when I was young and I see it is still around and expensive lol. I do have a tendency to overthink and over analyze. I live in Southeast Michigan. They have just one Magnepan dealer in the area. I did drive to another store that was a few hours away that said they had maggies and only had 1.7’s set up, they neglected to tell me this was the only pair they had and then really pushed B&W’s. I am going to read through your responses again and see if I can provide more information if needed.  I appreciate it each response! I am very excited to get this journey going. 

They are just trying to play music that sounds good on their speakers which will not be led zeppelin because led zeppelin requires a speaker that will play it all meaning all kinds of music which most audiophile approved types will not.

Thank you Russ, i did realize that and actually was able to listen to some Martin Logans next to the Maggies. I will admit I do not understand the complete mechanics behind each but have a general understanding. With my now 60 year old ears I enjoyed the Magnepans a bit more. At least in that particular environment. 

You may notice that Led Zep collection spending more time on the shelf rather than on the turntable if you start making it a point to open up your musical horizons and start obtaining better recorded material so you can hear how great sound can be on a good system...

Just think, if you already love the music, now you’ll enjoy the music and what’s providing it to you....👍

It’s more than addictive as evident by how life consuming it is to the people who’ve taken up the hobby... Ask any audiophile.

with a $10 k budget i would buy a used Aesthetix Atlas stereo amp. A true beast of an amp worthy of the Maggies. I would pair that with a used Audio Research Ref 3 preamp.Set your planers up well and you will have a formidable system….

There are many other combinations

I assume you visited Paragon ?

...nothing from 'The Past' will sound quite the same on semi-SOTA or even the 'nominal' of Now....
If it haven't been 'remastered' (which can be considered as 're-eq'd' and generally 'tweaked'), it will play like 'back when' what we listened with is generally considered....junk....with exceptions....
(Fair enough, y'all?....ok....)

The sound you seek to recreate is There.....in the grooves or the pits of the CD....but it'll take doing to dig it out....;)

Swapping equipment can drain an account as fast as a divorce.
Consider some simple room arrangements with easy to do acoustima'...drapes, rugs, pets....
Take as much time as you'd like to consider what and how to proceed.
Maggies' tend to like power, carefully applied.
Ohm ratings become a religion.
'Upstream' equipment can spark multi-page 'discussions' here. ;)

Oh...Have fun, since that's the basic premise....

@tomic601  I actually have an appointment there tomorrow. They did not have Maggies so I was going to visit them after I heard some maggies. I even live in Ann Arbor so  they are very convenient :)  i did order the  Maggies however, the store said just let them know if I change my mind  because of the long wait period. I did like some dynaudio speakers I heard at another Ann Arbor store. I will look into your  other gear suggestions. Thank you for taking the time to put your thoughts down. How much of my budget should be a dac. I was looking at the Lumin products. 

I'm very much trying to take in all the info and enjoying every minute of this. It makes me even more excited. 

well i have a $13 k preamp and a $13 k dac……but….

maybe we should back up a bit…

what sources do you intend to use; Streamer, CD, Tuner, R2R, Server, DAC , Turntable, etc ? 

@asvjerry lol I know every word you said is true. I was nervous about posting  but am glad I did as I am finding so much info in the responses. I do first and foremost love music, i do however appreciate the sound that can be had with a nice system. I believe that you guys understand this. I get on genre jags lol. I am looking forward to discovering new music. I am always open. 

@tomic601 i will be using a turntable and streaming. I do have an older NAD cd player and many CDs but I really dont listen to them much and do not believe that will change. 

Putting Paragon in the mix and well given that you need (3) inputs, you might want to consider a high power Integrated, looks like Paragon carries Mac and Audio Research. ARC isnt the best fit in your budget, speaker choice , local dealer. With the right Mac you might get a built in DAC. man does paragon ask a ton of coin for used ARC preamps….

You imo need audiophile inputs from the Michigan and surrounding states input.

IF it were me, hold pat on maggie order but visit Chicago, and a few other places….

does the Nad have a digital output and if so, what format ?

When I was 16 yrs old  I heard a pair of  Magnepans  and had etched in my mind a feeling of crystal clear detail with sound stage.   Led Zep II on vinyl  made a profound impact on me.   

After years  (50+) of working (saving)  and enjoying various systems. I went out and attempted to recreate the feeling from my youth.  I purchased the 1.7s,  a NAD M2 and a used Scoutmaster by VPI with a cartridge that cost more than my early systems.   As  a result   I have had thousand of hours of listening pleasure.  I dislike:  all the LZ remasters repressings    The original vinyl still does it for me.  

Now I take Tidal and run into my Sony A8F out a fiber optic cable into the NAD M2  and out to the 1.7s and PSB subwoofers.   To me this is heaven.   Stunningly beautiful video and kickass tunes.  When I am not fishing I am glued to Sony flagship OLED  and NAD masterpiece.  Sure there is better.  But I am more than happy with my little system. 

did you visit Audio Dimensions ?

@joem2 lets go fishing !