Why are there a disproportional number of male audiophiles? Not sure if this is a silly question, but speaking for myself, I have never met a female audiophile. I am sure they exist, but their scarcity begs the question as to why. Is it merely that men have more of the "mine is bigger than yours" mentality, do men love gadgets and tools or is it something more sinister?
@tony1954 - of course food tastes better when visual senses are not in use. The other senses become more keen. Or lack of capabilities lead people (or animals) to adapt in other ways. Ever see a 3 legged dog? Amazing how they function.
Much is spent at expensive restaurants on the design and decoration - some designed so you can sit and relax and some with bright colors to get you in an out quickly. The fast food places spend a lot on decorating also believe it or not, to withstand the heavy traffic.
MC is just a little fired up today, give him a break. Although, I would recommend he just skip over the subject. Let's keep the politics/Trump arguments out of this conversation and really completely off the Gon. I see enough of that crap on TV.
@cd318 I asked an innocent question and for some reason people like you want to make it into a hill you will die on. Are there more male audiophiles than female audiophiles? Yes. Do people stereotype? Yes. Next time I will try to ask a question that doesn't tax your intellect. How about "Do your prefer bananas or spades?"
The world is not getting more polarized. It's slowly waking up.
If you thought 2020 was dramatic, I can guarantee you 2021 is going to be a lot more 'fun'.
Especially the way things are going.
Meanwhile you just keep worrying why there aren't more females suffering with audiophilia...
"Why do more men like audio?
Is it stereotyping?" Maybe it's mono typing or quad. Did you consider that?
If you really wanted to know maybe it would be more appropriate to ask the females in your life. Rather than asking a bunch of predominantly male audiophiles.
Was it genuine interest or did virtue signalling get the better of you? Was it worth it?
How appetizing a food looks can make you think it will taste better, which actually makes it so.
This comment gave me something to think about. The discrimination we make between our senses are conceptual labels we use for practical purposes, but the interaction of different senses is a real phenomenon, as you point out! Maybe this is partly evolution -- the ability to survive depends on knowing when food "looks bad to eat."
a thrown together plate of food is not as appetizing as a neat one or a carefully constructed one at a restaurant
I completely agree, not least because I can see -- and anticipate -- the flavors to come better when it’s not a pile of mush. And anticipation is a big component of the later experience.
I suppose that’s where the analogy breaks down. One cannot really anticipate what something will sound like based on how the equipment looks, right? Although, I have to say when i look at some of those big horn speakers -- or the array of drivers on the Tektons -- part of me starts to anticipate *something* sonic.
There was a local restaurant that served their meals in total darkness. They claimed that the lack of external sensory input actually enhanced the taste of food. While it sounds strange on the surface, is it any different than listening to music in a darkened room?
hilde45 - I don't think your food analogy holds much weight, unless the taster is blind. How appetizing a food looks can make you think it will taste better, which actually makes it so.
I am by no means a foodie, but I like what I like and am picky, and I can tell you that a thrown together plate of food is not as appetizing as a neat one or a carefully constructed one at a restaurant. I would be the cooking judges at contests take presentation into account. When people judge stereos they are supposed to close their eyes.
You can blame me for asking the question again, but if the responses are
any indication, the demographics haven't changed and female
stereotyping is still an issue. Sad, but not surprising as the world
gets more polarized every day.
What a steaming pile of malarkey! First YOU divide audiophiles by sex. Then YOU complain about stereotyping??? YOU divide- then you say the world is more polarized! That's rich!
(Psychologists have a term for this behavior: projection. I prefer steaming pile of bull....)
Why do you care what sex audiophiles are? Since when did that become your responsibility? What are you going to do anyway, run around comparing demographics making sure the 50.8% or whatever it is females in the population are precisely 50.8% of audiophiles? Then what? When you have perfected that, you think you will stop there? No way, Jose! Then you will fret why are there more white ones, we need more brown ones! Why are you all healthy? We need more disabled! Why are there so few unemployed audiophiles??? (No dumber than your female fixation by the way.) On and on down the line dividing people by your always arbitrary made up ideas of how the world should be.
Can't you see where this is going? The only place it can go? Some Big Brother telling everyone you must be this, you must be that. Give it up. Please.
Or at least realize the problem isn't audiophiles ITS YOU, and quit giving us normal people who just want to live and let live such sanctimonious little sermons. Trust me when I say, you are not all that.
@sokogear Interesting comment about only sound mattering to serious audiophiles. Would you say the same thing about food -- doesn't matter how it looks, only how it tastes? It seems that analogy should carry over. If it doesn't, I'm curious what you think the difference is.
I think true (maybe more serious or committed) audiophiles only care about how their systems sound - the ones who care more about how it looks are looking to show it off (possibly) - ergo all the attached pictures showing their impressive equipment on this and other websites.
Also, I disagree with the appreciation comment of jewelry being better than stereo equipment. They can both be antiques and the appreciation is highly dependent on the individual object. Some jewelry is almost worthless immediately after purchase.
True, the whisk would apply more to how men view hammers. Certain ones for certain applications. Using stereotypes diamonds and rubies make women feel more feminine and huge speakers and glowing tubes men more masculine. If only stereo equipment appreciated like jewelry.
djones Good point. One picks up a whisk, imagines it as an extension of their arm and hand. Problem with audio technology is that it is never really possibly an extension of our own capabilities. It's job is to present things TO us. Possibly another relevant dimension (cf. "ready to hand" vs. "present to hand" in Heidegger).
I would say she looked at the whisk as a tool to perform no matter how it subjectively looked. If only we would approach audio technology in an equally rational way.
@djone51 Fascinating article, djones. Thanks. This is a complex issue, and for reasons sketched in the article, not always easy for the lover of technology to get fully clear on due to the myopia inherent to any strong attachment, including technophilia.
I tend to think of technology much more broadly -- as ways of accomplishing tasks or experiencing states of mind/body. And technologies can be very simple. Most primitive, perhaps, is a simple technique: "How to open a pickle jar," for example -- is a technology. Next, we might think of simple tools; a hammer is a technology. And of course things get more complex from there.
If we agree that technologies can be as simple as techniques, then the gender "difference" becomes diluted. Even if one supposes women in their "typical" [please note the scare quotes] roles -- cooking, sewing, etc. -- there is deep involvement with technology. My daughter, for example, just came out of one of those wonderful restaurant supply stores raving about the variety of whisks they carried. She’s in love with the technology of the whisk because it will empower a wider range of techniques in her baking, for a wider range of purposes.
The question comes back, perhaps, to a more typical male love of technology that "disburdens" one -- that allows one to press a button and watch the machine deliver the end product. This, perhaps, is one source of the article’s reference to the atavistic love of power which men find in technology. The female whisk-lover wants to be empowered to do something (bake, e.g.) whereas the male device lover wants to make something magically appear -- like a wizard or god. Different ways of being in the world, no?
That said, there are many men on this forum who are more like bakers -- DIY’ers, electrically-versed, etc. They love the technology only fully once they understand it and perhaps engage with it. They make things, get their hands dirty, chat with other hobbyists. Like a sewing circle, no?
So, like most things, there’s a spectrum, and personality is a heterogenous mix of different traits, a collage not a solid color. Frankly, the more perspectives on this hobby, the better. What would be really interesting would be to see more women in charge of audio companies. What would change? What would it bring?
@artemus_5 Unfortunately, much of the rock from the 80s and 90s that she wants to listen to is not well recorded or mastered so she criticizes the system. The 60s and 70s rock is preferable. Prong, Osborne and Metallica sound more like noise than Allman Bros, Steely Dan and Led Zep. She doesn’t appreciate Yello which sounds spectacular. 78s are more enjoyable to me than Osborne. My high end audio system in my custom listening room can make most music sound good to great but some music is just too much like noise for me. Actually, the 2nd system (better than 95% of audiophiles systems) has 3 10" woofers and are tighter and punchier so that her rock sounds faster. When I pick the pop or classical music (she gets bored with jazz) she just sits and enjoys it. I appreciate her input though as to system changes though. I have 25,000 LPs/7,000 CDs/7,000 78s to choose from.
I believe you-all may have missed THE women issue." Being part of the whole" Point in case. We play our stereo maybe 3 nights a week I.e. Lp’s or stream. Now when I go over and pull out a L.P. she’s not the involve even if I ask what she would like to listen to. She usually nods off or plays un-interested. NOW when is she a listener? A HA! I will tell you all in our case when we stream music say Tidal or Qobuz. I hand our Mac Pro to her. I simply say play "SOME TUNES" anything you like "HONEY". p.s. just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary if that helps you understand women a little better!!
"I do think "meiatflask" hit a big nail on the head. Women who have kids usually don’t have the time or means to invest in "equipment." I didn’t start buying expensive (expensive to me) equipment until my kids had all moved out of the house."
That’s it, in a nutshell. Biological differences.
Of course social norms are changing, particularly in the western world, and men are now usually more involved in child rearing.
Hence the predominance of the more mature audiophile, as well as the younger ones.
Family life tends does to get in the way of this hobby. Heck, I had to sell my turntable with the arrival of my daughter! I wasn’t pushed, or forced, it was simply a question of priorities and the right thing to do.
Was is worth it?
Ask Homer Simpson. You’d get a similar answer. Oh the role of the poor harassed male in these difficult times..!
You can blame me for asking the question again, but if the responses are any indication, the demographics haven't changed and female stereotyping is still an issue. Sad, but not surprising as the world gets more polarized every day.
Here we are again. Remember May 2016 "Do female audiophiles exist?" and 2005 "Audiophiles...Why men? Any women here?" Not a new question. I and several other female audiophiles responded. But here we are years later, kicking the same question about. Yes, we exist. Perhaps not in high numbers but who really knows for sure? Just because we females don’t always identify ourselves as "female" doesn’t mean we don’t exist or exist only in small numbers. Who would ever have guessed by the handles "gg987" or "theo714" that the owners would be female? Perhaps, like myself, an innocent question was asked and an insensitive responder squelched their desire to inquire further on this forum because they were given a rude response. I’m a bit more tenacious and have continued to ask questions. And I’ve received some very insightful, informative and kind help from many. I would think it would be best to go to the source (females) and ask them is "the equipment" important to them or not and why or why not. Then and only then will we know the "real" reasons. A million women a million different answers... I do think "meiatflask" hit a big nail on the head. Women who have kids usually don’t have the time or means to invest in "equipment." I didn’t start buying expensive (expensive to me) equipment until my kids had all moved out of the house. And as far as women not being able to sit still and listen or preferring to talk rather than listen, maybe, maybe not. In my marriage, my husband is the talker. Some days I listen to music in my recliner from morning to evening (putting it on pause when he comes through for some conversation :)
She bemoans the fact that I've made her into an audiophile in terms of assessing the sound quality instead of just listening to the music
Why can't she/you do both? This idea of just listening to the equipment is what many accuse audiophiles of doing. I think this is erroneous. I can and do listen to my computer system with great enjoyment. It certainly doesn't compete with the main system. But I can enjoy the music from both. Now, I DO have different expectations of both systems. I'd be terribly disappointed if my main system sounded no better than the computer system. But I listened to music on a far lesser system for many years and thoroughly enjoyed it. The disappointment would not be in the music but the fact that I spent so much for so little. BTW, My wife listens & enjoys music with me. She also and has a pretty good ear. She is much more sensitive to high freq than I. But most women are. Still, its not a priority to her.
My wife is atypical music lover. She graduated Stoney Brook as a biology major. Major sports fan and an athlete. When I met her, she had a few hundred rock and pop LPs in excellent condition (now shared). However, she only loves the opera live and will not sit and watch an opera on video. She allows me to select the music (too many rock concerts when she was young and now she hates excess highs such as flutes and piccolos). She is very helpful in assessing changes in our main audio system (very sensitive to sound). She bemoans the fact that I've made her into an audiophile in terms of assessing the sound quality instead of just listening to the music (I have no problem listening to 78s and imperfect recordings as long as the performance is worthy). So, I'm fortunate to have a wife I can share music experiences with but who isn't interested at all in equipment (she does appreciate the custom music listening room which is 98% isolated from the video family room on the other side-total isolated in the video room). 75% of her sports viewing time is not shared as I prefer to listen to music.
Thanks. I'm just a tad younger but was an early Zeppelin fan from 69 when their 1st album came out. Same with Sabbath. These along with Iron Butterfly, Grand Funk, and other hard rock groups were staples of my music diet. My experience is that many men don't like metal,. much less, women. I found one woman who did out of all the people I've known. So it is unbelievable that the majority of women now like metal. I'll call BS on that. Now I'm sure the times are changing. And I'm glad to meet the female audiophiles and metal head bangers. But that doesn't change the fact that they are the exception, not the rule. This is where stereotypes come in. They exist to make conversation easier, especially on subjective issues. They are general rules but not hard and fast. Of course there are exceptions. And there are nuances within the exceptions. But this is for academia, with pages of minutia not BB conversations. I suspect it is also generational wherein the younger have somehow learned that stereotypes are wrong instead of being exceptions. I've noticed my son often points out the exceptions as if they are the rule. IMO, the problem with this lack of exception and nuance is that it often leads to confusion and then division and is counterproductive. A'gon has been going down this path for a few yrs now which is why I and many don't post here as much as I did the earlier 20 yrs of being here. I suspect it has a large part to do with the total division of our country now too. BTW, you made an interesting comment about listening. My own wife listens with me. She generally lays with one ear on the pillow and hearing with the other. She is satisfied. She says she is listening but I notice her asleep a lot.
tony1954: You ask, "What are the built in things" that attract guys. I could be wrong. It could all be socialization, but some guys do seem to be innately attracted to girl parts. Of course, it is impossible to do double blind studies to prove whether this attraction is genetically inherited, or socially learned. Not so with audio! We guys really do like our mechanical and electronic toys, many just to show off to seem more attractive, but for me, I really have deeply liked my stereo, sports cars, sport bikes, and SeaDoo's; althought it never hurt that these things attracted friends over, many with special benefits that they never shared with other guys. Girls are taught too much that clothes and makeup (Ugh!) attract guys. They constantly see it in the media, in stores, and from mentor/idols. Many have little time to just while away at hobbies.
Applying stereotypes to audiophiles based on sex may be problematic. What is the percentage of males who are audiophiles? Likely less than 1% of total male population. The vast majority of men don't get it any more than the women. I suspect nurture has a lot more to do with it than nature. Its likely the vast majority of audiophiles became audiophiles because of exposure to other male's audio systems, guys hanging around with guys at impressionable age.
It follows far fewer women are audiophiles due to less exposure to women with high end systems. Chances are women only hear high end systems owned by men, figure its a man thing.
drblarney1: Yes, I agree, mostly. We inherit things genetically, but mostly physical attributes. We also inherit socially, from those we are around. We rarely learn behaviors, and especially not identities, on out own. Even kids who are mistreated still learn to be like their tormentors.
keithsax: Did the transgenders you mention change to girlish people to guyish? If so, was it to be accepted as audiophiles> TeeHee from a very guyish dude.
Nice try Duke! Regardless of gear and bigger and all the macho talk in these tag-ons there is one thing not one man has said about 'watching women or listening to music with women'...in my 70-something years I have never ever even seen a woman actually 'listen' to music. Never! Listening is more than 'catching the lyrics'. And I am very friendly with many women. But you can watch them glaze over when you put some Captain Beefheart on the turntable. I think that is why they tend to more opera with all the visual stimulation and a story of pain and heartbreak. Women seemed to be more attracted to music videos too. Ask a woman to close her eyes and have a conversation and see what happens. Or of course, they jump up and need to dance. But sit and listen the way my male friends or my adult sons listen; not. I think it is far less about expressing emotions and far more about getting your own bad self out of the way and to shut up long enough to 'listen' to music. $6 ear buds or $60,000 speakers make no difference if you are not a listener and only a 'hear-er'.
Neuro-scientists are still researching cognitive differences XY vs XX causes in the brain. So far, there is great overlap in any Gaussian bell curves of what they quantify. This makes a concept of gender too weak for me to ascribe this difference in interest in audio equipment to genetic differences between men and women. I think it is caused by environmental differences in what roles are assigned to males and females and these roles are purely arbitrary. Many women are engineers notwithstanding gender expectations. The same could happen to audio given the right social environmental conditions.
Aha! Some interesting responses, and prejudices, are afoot. Has anyone thought that guys start being able to afford toys at an earlier age, possibly because we can earn more money through better paying summer jobs than girls, or at least could way back in our youth?\ Also, guys need an excuse to invite anyone over. Girls have things built in for this.
Theo714: Thank you! I had hoped to find that there are female audiophiles. Girly music? Well0 I am prejudices but try to improve my outlook, deaspite being somewhat allergic to females. I am happy to discover an actual lady audiophile.
It is in the DNA. Men are more inward which allows them to enjoy listening to music which typically is done without much conversation. Women are more outward and enjoy company and conversation which is not conducive to critically listening to a hifi system where you are either listening to enjoy, which is a non-talking event or to figure out which item needs to be upgraded next, which again requires quiet.
@axo0oxa -- We can do both, I assure you -- enjoy company and conversation and also listen quietly.
Men and women (exceptions from the norm excepted) have different hearing. Men lose more of their hearing with age than women do. (I am amazed at the golden ears some of us still claim to have when we are over 40...). Men lose higher frequencies first, but women lose lower frequencies first. If we want to share our hobby with our female partners and friends, we need to invest a bit less in subs, and a bit more in midrange quality. And maybe find some music which also appeals to the middle range frequencies of hearing. Any suggestions?
It might have something to do with women's uncanny ability to be up and about doing this or that and still catch most of what's going on wether on the TV or the HI FI.
While we both enjoy a good video and music, getting my wife to set in one place long enough to watch a whole move or set, head in a vice, to listen to music for more than about 5 minutes - is next to impossible.
Men are more inward which allows them to enjoy listening to music which typically is done without much conversation. Women are more outward and enjoy company and conversation which is not conducive to critically listening to a hifi system where you are either listening to enjoy, which is a non-talking event or to figure out which item needs to be upgraded next, which again requires quiet.
@danvignau -- "Who wants to go to a female's house to listen to girley music?"
Seriously? Girly music? What IS that anyway?
I guarantee you if you came to my "female" house you could listen to anything from classical to classic rock, some jazz, some blues, standards ... the gamut.
As for people suggesting that the "music is the thing, not the gear" ... yes, but the gear is the way to get to the music, at least for us! For me, the quality of the sound makes a huge difference. For my male partner, it does not. He listens on my discards (very OLD discards!) and is completely happy. He doesn't worry about cables, line conditioners, or any of that stuff (let alone components). He's much more gadget-oriented than I am (he's an engineer) but has no particular interest in sound (and claims not to hear differences).
Really, there are probably few differences between male and female audiophiles -- we're all in it because the sound makes a huge difference. Perhaps male audiophiles are, generally speaking, more gadget-loving than females. The "barriers to entry" are greater for women, though, as I mentioned. Women are wary of "boy's clubs" where they may not be welcome. (A great example of that is the toxic male gamer environment. Fortunately, the audiophile world is not nearly as toxic. But the wariness is still there.)
Something I can finally jump in on! Came home one day and my youngest daughter was operating my Sony Commander remote. Her mother was beside herself telling me she told that girl to leave it alone. I asked her rather casually so you got that down? She said yes, I watched you just enough. Then I come home one day and she has the stereo running. I walk in her mother says she did it. The other daughter I took on two trips to the repair shop and showroom (nothing like the other one). She just had fun turning all the knobs and looking at gear and asking what does this sound like. One day I was fooling around with the system and made a wrong move and the older sister jumped me and told me exactly what the man said I could and couldn’t do. Daddy were you even listening? The mother just wanted to hear her music as loud as she wanted. I also owned a sports car that the mother loved to drive. One day I got to talking about holding on once you hit 80mph at a temperature of 160 degrees. To my surprise the mother pops off and talks about leaving guys in their tracks. She realizes she’s telling on herself and goes mum. At that point I realize she’s out there racing my baby and even I didn’t do that. Shoot back to youngest daughter daddy, I want that car, ok when I can no longer drive it’s yours. Gets out she got dibs two other pouty faces. The shop we were in was Sound Idea, Texas. Maybe they like what we like but they never really do it the way we do. One thing I know the systems I do own will be staying in the family with the youngest girl teaching the boys and girls. Including the cars. I don’t have pictures of my systems online because you guys are so above me all I do is read what you write. I have been into separates since high school and own gear from that day except for the headphone rack which now includes a HPA-550, V850, 339, 789, 007tll. Haven’t decided on second DAC yet but leaning SMSL400 or Denafrips Pontus and run an rca over to main system also. You folks rock!
@gg987 You remind me of my ex-wife. And I mean that in only the most positive way. She has always appreciated good sound and good music and although she didn't care about the minutiae of my audiophilia, she wasn't in the least intimidated by the gear. There is so much stereotyping in society and as much as we like to think we are progressing, there is a very long way to go.
"Who wants to go to a female's house to listen to girley music?" I don't know what women you associate with, but I wouldn't recommend making that comment in mixed company. My wife is the "metalhead" in the family and was the one that turned me onto bands like Tool. We enjoyed everything from Puccini to Pink. Referring to "girly music" says more about you than them.
they know it's the music which is the thing, not the gear.
I've heard this said before and it never has made any sense to me. Of Course the music is "the thing". But HOW do you get the music without the gear? You DON'T. So the gear is fundamental in hearing the music. So, by its very nature, the gear IS IMPORTANT! Why? Because you won't hear music without some type of gear. I've never heard music without something playing it. I've heard the cheap gear & the expensive gear. Guess which one sounds better. So NO, Its not a Dumb hobby. But it is a dumb statement, usually made by people who will not make the sacrifice of $$$ to buy the better equipment. Each of us has our own priorities. If it is not yours then that's fine. But you shouldn't come into this type forum with that type attitude and expect your unfounded statements to be accepted by someone who has made the sacrifices to obtain better sound. Its akin to going on a Porsche forum and telling them that your Escort is every bit as good as their overpriced Porsche.
Most women are not interested in audiophile gear because they are not interested, period. They are not mistreated or excluded by men. They are not beaten by their husbands for touching the stereo.
If women were interested in audio but didn't like the way men do audio, they could get together with other women and talk about audio or listen to music. There is no one keeping them from enjoying better audio. They just aren't interested, with exceptions, of course.
@gg987 - My wife sees how careful I am cleaning and organizing my records with the jackets, folders (in many cases), sleeves, boxes (in some cases) and wouldn't want to go through the trouble, and probably never wanted to put the stereo on while I wasn't there. She does put on DVDs/blu-rays on her own when that is hooked up though. She won't play it through the stereo, just through the TV, because once again, she doesn't care.
Did you ever see the fantastic movie Diner? Check out when the subject of the record collection comes up. Classic.
And I wasn't born in the 50's. Never met a woman audiophile. Glad to know one and your set up is too organized and neat for even me.
It is in the DNA. Men are more inward which allows them to enjoy listening to music which typically is done without much conversation. Women are more outward and enjoy company and conversation which is not conducive to critically listening to a hifi system where you are either listening to enjoy, which is a non-talking event or to figure out which item needs to be upgraded next, which again requires quiet.
My middle daughter (age 38) loves music and always has. We share “have you heard ....” all the time, since her teenage years. And while at her home it’s mostly Apple Music through a Mac with speakers, whenever she gets back to my house, she always wants to spend time listening to music on my rig, letting me take over the “have you heard....”. She is not interested in what equipment I have (although she asks what’s new), but in transporting herself into the music, eyes closed. While her budget is a major limitation, her time (raising 2 kids) is also limits her. But when visiting us, she is on vacation/holiday and has more spare time. So, she may never be an audiophile due to budget and time limitations, she does appreciate the listening experience. So when I die (hopefully many years from now) she gets the stereo.
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