Audiogon member suggestions for a speaker that sounds good at low volume!!!
I am looking for speaker suggestions (new or used) in the $1000-$4000 range that sound good at low volume (45-50db). I listen to mostly jazz and classical music late at night while everyone else is sleeping so the volume is low. My current speakers are Vandy 2CE sigs and they sound good at higher volume levels but I listen most critically, at low volume and hope to do better. My amp is a Classe CT-2300 with a Classe CP-800 preamp. I have a larger room 20ft X 20ft but seldom listen to music loud. Monitor of floor standing is fine.
I understand the limitation of human hearing (Fletcher-Munson Curve) and also an appreciation of the synergy of speaker design, speaker placement and room effects. Anyone out there have a speaker they like at low volume?
Guys, if you are talking amps and Atma's, you need to seriously consider Quicksilver as well as Aesthetix gear. When looking for electronics, I strongly feel that putting more money into a preamp is worth it. Give me a great pre with a good amp over a great amp with a good pre.
I had a great convo a couple of weeks ago with a designer at a top electronic company and they agreed, so I know it's not just me. I also think most folks change speakers too quickly as a good speaker will scale if you share a better signal to them. JMHO...
My speakers arent as OTL friendly as my friends but I am strongly considering Ralph's larger OTLs to replace my Phi 200 as well as my S.S. amp. On the right speaker I have never heard any tube amp that I like as much as Atma-sphere and I have heard most designs and models.
I had a First Watt and sold it to a friend who used if for a time and then sold it and got Atma-sphere M60s . The improvement with the M-60s was significant. To be fair the M-60s also beat out my VAC Phi 200 and 2 300B SETs by a wide margin.
I didnt read all of the responses, but you guys are missing the obvious which is the type of amp driving the speakers. To may way of thinking this is Audio 101.
if you are looking at can's, there are so many new entries and options. I am into can's as well as CIEM's (best I've found are the Empire Ears). The Hifi Man Sundara is a GREAT value for a few hundy.... I'm selling my Bocote Ori's as I am only using my EE CIEMs lol....
I'm with Tomic when it comes to your situation. Any horn in that price range will probably fatigue your ears in no time and you won't be listening as much as you want to. I have a lot of Asian friends from the headphone world who have fallen for the Vandy's as they play so well with the lower powered tubes they love to run and they sound awesome at lower levels compared to bookshelf speakers.
I would say there are some others in that range and size that would probably fill the bill. It's still all about being able to listen to a well balanced speaker.
look, nothing will fix the background signal to noise issues you are going to have with SPL in the 50 range. More detail is not the answer, a quieter room, higher spl or a combination of both are!,,,. Stax makes awesome headphones and IF you keep SPL low, you will not hurt your ears.. enjoy your quest and the music!!!! Jim
Worth consideration is Vanatoo Transparent One Encore speakers which sound very good at low volumes. They are small powered speakers with built in DSP. Just what the doctor ordered for low volumes. Only $600 and loaded with technology to help get the most out of a small package.
You are looking of a "Japanese" audio system. Many Japanese listeners live in small apartments and have to keep the volume down (particularly because they are such polite people). That is one of the reasons they put gigantic horn systems in their small listening room--horns sound great at low volume). Unfortunately, good horns don't come in the price range you are shopping.
In that range, I would look at Audio Note speakers, old LS3/5a's, ProAc Tablette or D-2, or Rethm Bhaava. These sound quite good at lower volume.
I know it might seem a bit counter-intuitive, but, large dipole panel speakers are also contenders because they can be played a little bit louder than non-dipole speakers with less sound spilling outside of the listening area between the speakers. The front and back wave are not in the same phase, so bass energy tend to cancel at the sides of the speakers. I was shocked at how much of a difference this makes as to sound encroaching on other rooms when I went from dipole electrostatics to dynamic drivers.
The Schiit Loki EQ box is the answer. Seriously you don’t need new speakers.
Just put this magic box in the loop, play with the knobs for a few minutes, and listen to the 3D soundstage emerge from your system at low volumes.
No joke. You can really “set and forget it”. I found a setting I like and have had almost zero desire to continue tweaking. And it doesn’t introduce any noise/distortion. It’s wild. Game changer for me in my living room with my wife and baby sleeping up stairs. I don’t feel urge to turn it up or strain to hear the details.
Although one has to define what it means "to sound good at low volume", but in term of speaker design, if you want you make your speakers sound "good" at low volume, you want a slight lift at the mid range and upper mid range frequencies, but then it would compromise high level volume listening.
One the other hands, if a speaker frequency response is relatively flat, it needs a bit of volume level for it to come alive.
I've tried Heresy and they will not do it. They are bass shy which will not work at low volumes. I also like (have to) listening at low volumes and after Heresy I tried Tannoy Legacy Eaton. Which I bought and I can't be happier.
Harbeth won't give him what he says he wants at those levels though. Klipshhorn classics would be a start in that price range. Their Heresy's would be a good start. my buddy used to own a pair in HS. Fun speakers.
I have auditioned two sets of new speakers (Ohm Walsh 3000 and Totem Hawks) and did not feel that either speaker was an improvement over the Vandys.
I see many used speakers on Audiogon that I would like to audition but that is not a reasonable request when buying a used speaker. I did not want to get into the buying, trying and reselling business, but that looks like my next move.
I think my next venture will be speakers with a higher sensitivity than the 86 of the Vandys.
Keep your speakers and get a Luxman integrated like L505uX/L507uX with built in loudness feature. Currently sitting in my living room, kids and wife napping upstairs. Loudness is on. Sounds great to me. Paired to Aerial 5Ts.
I wonder if this person ever came to a conclusion...? Something I would like to add, speakers sounding good at low volume is going to be completely dependent on the gear running them. The speakers are the instrument, the gear is who’s playing and controlling what the instrument does or doesn’t do.
Another vote for 'phones. Listening at 45-50 dB allows almost no room for decent dynamics. Forget speakers, unless you listen at realistic levels (65-85 dB peaks).
You need way more transparent loudspeakers especially for low volume listening. Vandy 2Ci are not good for this. The Vandy 2ci is a lovely for the money loudspeaker they have a distincly warm tonal balance and use a good but not state of the art tweeter therefore detail will be lacking.
At low volume levels you are going to have to overcome background ambient noise if any and at a lower volume you have to listen harder to make out details that would be easier to hear with greater volume.
So you need speaekers with tremendous detail, for your price range you can get a pair of Quad Z4 which use a fantastic ribbon tweeter tthat has unbelievable detail and speed, the speaker also has a huge soundstage, and has a warm midrange and good deep bass reponse which is tight.
You can then add a good subwoofer later on to augment the missing deep bass at lower volume levels due to the ear's inefficeny at hearing bass at lower levels.
You should try to find a pair to listen to they are amazing loudspeakers for the money.
Paradigm is going to do a Trade-Up Promotion on their Persona Speakers starting February 1st. If you’re considering trading or selling your current speakers, you should take a listen to their 3F’s.
I don't have the time to read all of the responses to this question. Please forgive me if someone has already mentioned what I am about to discuss. The real issue you are asking about is called "power balance". The frequencies to be produced by a speaker are based on the driver and crossover design. At a given frequency, more or less power is required to produce that frequency. Usually this manifests itself when the bass disappears in relation to the other frequencies as the volume is turned down. To listen at low volume levels, the bass must remain at the same level as the rest of the frequency spectrum. We normally talk about the frequency response of a speaker. Power response goes a little farther in that the frequency response curve of the speaker may actually vary with the volume level provided by the amp. This is not a desired condition in a speaker system! Regardless of volume, the response curve should remain the same.
I suggest that you listen to a number of speakers and listen for the balance of highs and lows at low volume that it had at normal listening levels. As you turn the volume down, the bass should maintain the same level relationship with the rest of the music as it had at normal volume levels. Once you are satisfied that the power balance is correct, then determine if you like the sound of the speaker!
I caution against using devices that "correct" the balance of frequencies as they usually introduce additional noise and distortion into the playback chain. A well designed speaker should not need external equipment to "correct" its balance. If the rest of your equipment is capable of reproducing the full spectrum of frequencies and the speakers are designed to reproduce those frequencies also, you should not need additional equipment to get you there.
Much prefer near-field lower level listening to headphones. For the imaging and soundstage. A very nice experience. Besides headphones hurt and you crank the volume too high. Maybe listen 5 hours a day to my desk top system and half an hour to my (very loud) main systems so makes it wiser to spend most money on the desk system (which I havn't...).
Speakers need juice, period. Not trying to be argumentative, but spending 1-4 thousand on speakers you won’t hear doesn’t make sense. I get that people are sleeping and the need for lower volume, so just get yourself a good set of headphones instead. Listen to music the way it was meant to be heard.
I'd like to audition the Von Schweikert VR-55K and the Lumenwhite Kyara, both high efficiency, easy to drive speakers which could play quietly and beautifully.
I listened for years (at low and mid volume) to a Classe amp mated with Von Schweikert VR1 monitors (with upgraded internal wiring) and a Velodyne subwoofer (with remote control.) The sub was used primarily to enhance spatial imaging and secondarily to augment bass. A sub is critical even at low volumes to improve soundstaging and imaging of monitors. I’ve also enjoyed Tannoy and KEF monitors and found “concentric drivers” work well in this application. As you’ve already stated, high efficiency speakers do not necessarily equate to sounding good at low level listening. I’ve also got a pair of old Coral BX 200 speakers with alnico magnets that sound great at low level listening for classical and jazz. They can be picked up for around $100 on eBay (you can hardly go wrong trying the Corals.) I have an environment now that allows for higher listening levels, but if I had to go back to lower level listening I would definitely audition the Von Schweikert Unifield Two MkIII.
I can easily set up my horns to fail at low levels by over powering them or by mismatching levels. I make my statement about horns functioning better at lower levels after having much experance setting up systems I dont make it based on what my friends system sounds like but my own and the ones Ive designed or set up on a profesional level.
Funny thing is that I've heard my friends AvantGarde Trios with triple basshorns which are 110db efficient; however, they don't sound good unless played moderately loud. My own setup allows me to hear my music softly at 70-80db, moderate and usual at 80 to 90db and loud up to 100db peaks. My speakers are 4.5 way 98db efficient Legacy Focus in a 4500 cuft room. I would like to experience better softer quieter sound but the Fletcher-Munson curve would require some eq which I don't have or want. I found that the improvement in my room acoustic treatment and cabling permits 70-80db listening with excellent results. Also, type of music. Rock just doesn't sound great at soft listening levels while small scale classical, jazz and pop generally do.
I have to amplify all the calls for Tannoy at low volumes. I've never owned a pair, but a friend had some active Tannoys that were larger bookshelfs. They never played them loud, always background levels. Whenever we had dinner at their place, I was always struck by the balanced sound they emitted at low volume levels. Really drew me in, to the point of distraction from our conversations. Was nice.
I have Dynaudio Contour 20s, which I love, but low volume listening is not their strong-suit. Could also be a amp-matching issue as well. Best of luck.
Altec, or as someone else said about another brand, Altec Altec Altec.
Specifically, the Altec 604’s. I use the C and the D. They are 101db efficiency at 16 ohms.
I’ve been using them for 40 years, but over the last 3 months with a Velodyne 15” sub, that has made a huge difference.
I drive the Altecs with a pair of the NY Audiolab Julius Futterman OTL3s that have been converted to triode by Jon Specter, a former engineer at NY Audiolabs. They are 90 Watts each.
When I had to share my house with an elderly parent and needed a bedroom system for quiet late night listening I got Quad ESL 57s and they were great.
But the levels you're suggesting are REALLY low.
I suggest throwing DSP at the job and adding a generous dollop of Fletcher Munson curve. I do it with my office system, using the MathAudioRoomEq plugin for Foobar2000 (because both are free - I'm a cheap old bastard) but there are no doubt better sounding solutions - the Dirac live software is amazing and lets you add custom curves.
Otherwise, why not get headphones? If you hate the weird "sound in your head" thing get AKG 1000s, which are still cheaper than most quality speakers and listen to binaural recordings.
I have owned a lot of dipole speakers, and many monkey coffins. Personally I like a combination of art with my music. I am extremely happy with my Emerald Physics KCIIs (94dB)
Also you get a BOM which is an equalizer fr bass. EP sells them.
A speaker with elevated highs and bass wouldn't sound so great at normal levels...no free lunch! The "Fletcher-Munson" issue is unavoidable as it’s a reality of human hearing. I have Klipsch Heresy IIIs that work better than some at low levels, but still...the Schiit Loki is an easy and low impact solution...I use one from time to time, but if I’m seriously listening to something I want every detail getting to my earballs so I generally, even late at night, get to a level that’s not particularly loud but I can hear everything without the Loki in the loop.
2tuby next time you are up late nite listening, measure background ambient, your s to n very important also, then let’s start identifying things to reduce/attenuate, eliminate. My problem w Condo system is crashing surf - 45 dB ish... good for Beach Boys, Beethoven not so much...
also, Fletcher Munson might have ya back the 2 closer to wall to get more coupling, Room reinforcement... this will be a pragmatic physical experiment, can also argue why this is not a good idea...try it
2tuby. My guess have looked at a few but not statistically valid sample of cell and ipad spl apps using the built in mic is that they tend to be about 10 dB low fwiw, my guess you are listening in the low 60’s i think the Lyngdorf might be an exception, will have to study how the volume control is implemented- many attenuate at low levels buy reducing bit depth and therefore resolution, exactly what we want to avoid here. ... but “ mostly right “ is a new level of achievement for me, I plan to quote you in my annual letter to Santa, I always CC my spouse.... ha
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