Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

Question for the ASR guys. Referring to the SINAD chart, it is labeled "Excellent, Good/Very good, Fair, and Poor".  That's in reference to its measured performance but still perhaps a value judgement but if you are measuring noise and distortion with some made up formula. Would not it be more valuable if the groups were labeled; "Audible, Perhaps Audible, and Not Audible"? 

I just watched Oz the Great and Powerful in 3D on my 120 inch screen in 7.2.6 Dolby Atmos, thumbs up.

@prof maybe it is time for you and the rest of the flying monkeys to fly back to Amir's dark castle. 

@crymeanaudioriver whats it like being one of Amir’s flying monkeys? Don’t sell yourself short you have been condescending throughout this string.

"ASR members are soooo condescending!"

^^^ Say certain AGon members making the most condescending comments about ASR members and their equipment.

And none of this is taken notice of by those castigating "objectivists" or sites like ASR.   All the "arrogance and condescension" is always on the other side.  But, that’s human nature for you: We tend not to notice when our tribe does it.

@jerryg123 

Mostly because the equipment being tested is low scale and not my, well thing. I do not shop at Best Buy.

Excellent point! 

@prof nothing there I would brag about. So he shops at Safe and Sound.👎

I will say the arrogance and condescending attitudes reflected by you @amir_asr @prof I would not take advise from any of you, nor will I ever look at the ASR site.

You can say Amir has been slightly condescending, but given his treatment, probably far less than he should be. My condescension has circled around twisting of words, false truths, and outright lies. I am very much biting my tongue. @prof on the other hand has been a complete gentleman.

Mostly because the equipment being tested is low scale and not my, well thing. I do not shop at Best Buy.

I will say one condescending thing. You may want to pick up a dictionary and learn what the word condescending means, as you seem to believe it applies to others, but not yourself.

If anybody here with REW wants to get busy measuring stuff start with the room. I am shocked to see members measuring components and then leaving money on the table wasted because those components won’t provide the best experience without getting the room right. The video below may not work for you but it worked for me. I shopped for the treatments, exchanged e-mails with Anthony and BAM got a fantastic result. I noticed even some of the "professionals" posting here skipped this fundamental step. DSP helps, but DSP + a great room = amazing. BTW, room treatments can be covered with acoustically transparent fabric to make it look as good as it sounds:

@crymeanaudioriver and yet ASR is not doing any blind tests.

I will say the arrogance and condescending attitudes reflected by you @amir_asr @prof I would not take advise from any of you, nor will I ever look at the ASR site. Mostly because the equipment being tested is low scale and not my, well thing. I do not shop at Best Buy.

I also find the entire ASR crowd quite offensive and see why you fit right is over there.

Why don't you saunter on back. 

I am no expert and I do use some measurements as a baseline however what you and your ilk miss is that audio like most luxury items are also an emotional purchase. No one here at this forum is saying measurement do not have a place but it is only one leg in the triangle it is not the final chapter. The system and how it sounds is the sum of all the parts, that is the ultimate test and I have not seen a test by Amir of a complete system Pre, Amp, DAC, Cables, Source. Think those Dutch boys have though.  

So I am going to leave you and Amir Army to it. You have done nothing but make the divide even greater amongst the camps here. Arrogance and conceit are not going to sway minds nor opinions.  I will leave you and your 19 users names to argue among yourselves.  

Time to listen to some music as that is what this is all about. 

@kota1 , posting a link to a personal report of what someone thinks they heard does not prove your point. If the reviewer was truly curious, or fully believed their conclusion, they would have gotten two DACs, one burned in, and one not, and compared them in blind test.

@jerryg123 , did you notice how actual scientists don’t put pics of toys, like "piggy banks" in their cable reviews? Good example for the pretenders in this thread :)

@jerryg123 , someone on ASR spent more time evaluating their methods. The word amateur keeps repeating in my head. I will point this out to you as well @kota1 .

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/loudspeaker-cable-test-and-comparison.35712/post-1247963

The guy doing the switching is there. The two listeners discuss their findings which isn’t good methodology during the test. The switcher also had done the measurements. This isn’t even good single blind. Plus they discuss things for several minutes as cables are switched. They can see the cables being pulled out as switching is done. The first one was a white thin little cable, the next one is a big black fancy looking cable which they might have noticed even though not scrutinizing the cable as this happens. The switcher even gets involved in the discussions of what some of the cables sounds like with the test listeners. At one point even discussing what the measurements of the cable currently listened to was. This is a preposterous test. They are listening to not quite 10 minutes of music once, then talk amongst themselves for 7 to 8 minutes while cables are swapped (again in their view) before listening to the next one. And the results are random even though the author tries to spin it as meaningful.

Think it was said earlier that no one cares what a Phlebotomist or @cindyment has to say about anything.

Troll keeps a 🧌 ing.

@jerryg123 ,

I looked over that "cable test" at Alpha Audio. I will reiterate my comment. It is very amateur. How can anyone call themselves and audiophile of any experience and not know even the most basic things about a blind test. They even have a video of them doing this blind test. They don't have a good explanation, so we work with the video and what they wrote. Apparently, all they did was listen to each cable only once, write down their notes, then gave a rating at the end. They could have put all the names into a hat and pulled them out to determine the ranking. The result would carry the same weight and validity. Based on their data, the Shunyata would have been the loudest.

@amir_asr perhaps you would want to jump in at this point, but I don't get a very strong impression these Alpha Audio guys have much idea about what they are doing. I don't have the confidence to solidly identify measurement mistakes, but some of the things they wrote have me shaking my head, this like this statement. How could any measurement they made provide any indication of material purity?

The conductance is purely indicative. It shows how pure the material is that has been used. Ricable claims to use very pure, 7N copper. That matches up pretty well with what we measure on 2 x 3 meters (we go out (+) and back (-) in the cable in this measurement). Shunyata tops that with the very purest copper. And so that is visible in this measurement.

@fleschler 

One doesn't have to believe any online person; however, based on the enormous "subjectivist" opinions, people actually do hear differences, right or wrong, personal preferences included, regardless of measurements and decide to what sounds best to them, in a system, in a room.  Nothing you say will change that. 

Fleschler, that comes across as a dogmatic statement "You Can't Change Our Minds!"   Do you really want to seem that inflexible?  Isn't being open minded a two way street?  It often seems that people using a purely subjective ("Golden Ear") paradigm will castigate the "objectivist" for not being open to their claims, but will remain stubbornly opposed to being open to the objectivist side.

Also, you seem to be projecting your own attitude on to others.  It's simply not true that "nothing (Amir) can say will change" minds.  He, and others on his site, and other people on the internet over the years taking a similar view, have changed plenty of minds.  ASR is FULL of people who used to be in the "everything I think I hear is real" camp but who are taking a more critical look at the claims of many audiophiles and high-end audio companies.  

Honestly, not everyone is so close minded to the arguments and evidence presented by Amir.  Look at the huge number of comments under his youtube videos - it's full of incredibly appreciative comments!

He tales the joy out of the hobby.  It is a hobby for most of us, not a vocation. 

Again, please be aware this is speaking for yourself.  In no way does he take the "joy out of the hobby" for tons of people who appreciate the knowledge gained over on ASR.   He's not entering your listening room and taking away your tweaks, or telling you that you have to stop buying whatever you want. 

One could just as well complain that "all these audiophiles telling us everything needs break in" are taking the joy out of the hobby.  But...one is free to ignore this and take our own approach (and/or look at the evidence for such claims if we wish).

@jerryg123 , nice post on the cable testing, thanks:

"What a bizarrely intensive, educational and special test this has been to do. The aim was to establish a link between measuring and listening. And that was partly achieved. The Top 3 based on measurements is largely the Top 3 of the blind listening test. Both the Shunyata (unanimous), the Van den Hul and the Audioquest were eliminated. However, the MIT (Martijn) and Driade (Yung) were also on the Top 3 list. So there was 70% overlap per author. Not a bad score. And with five cables in total - all scoring well - it is still a very neat score overall."

@crymeanaudioriver and you are an expert on?

I thought you were a Phlebotomist or Respiratory Therapist ?

Or you are @cindyment the great audio designer that could not site one design. He or she was quite the expert on wine and cheese too, especially fromunda cheese.

@amir_asr 

Will you follow ?

Not everyone here agrees with you (shocking) and don't want to "blindly" follow.

Here is an article on audio equipment break in, why not ask Home Theater Review for their data and you can report back OK? Good luck with that...

@crymeanaudioriver as nonoise said you do dance on a pin head and that makes you.

Let the man speak for himself. No one here cares what you think.

You are the Deer Tick of the forums. (not my words but appropriate) 

Are you @amir_asr internet bodyguard? 

19 user names? 

As I said @amir_asr what say you? I do not go on your site very often as the equipment you test is not of any interest to me

Jonathan Swift would have had a field day with these guys.

only issue i have with his testing method is he never tests in actual use just isolated on his tester / bench. so, he won't see interactions of the components and how they affect each other just the raw test of the single component / cable.  No interaction of a speaker cable to the amp and speaker for example. no indication of issues with a component not liking the impedance or capacitance of a cable etc. Testing in isolation is only part of the story. 

Other than that, it's just more information to make an educated assessments prior to listening for yourself. 

I found this quite interesting and it appears the folks over at this site do quite a bit of testing. They seem to be very transparent about their test equipment, methodology and end goals in testing. They even make a statement as such.

You consider it transparent, I consider it amateur. It is interesting that you consider this transparent, but do not give the same consideration to ASR. This was my first Google hit. The difference in level of detail and depth and quality of the information is not subtle.

@amir_asr I find it interesting that these Dutch lads could do speaker cable tests, find measurable differences and on the subjective side hear the difference in the various speaker cables.

May need to use your translation features for some of the pages.

Interesting these guys are testing some very nice gear. And do blind testing what ever your name is @crymeanaudioriver 

What @fleschler said about Amir,

@Amir Keep your fans on ASR.  Can't hear differences in cables that measure the same=something is very wrong here.  .....   You think you are superior to nearly everyone who posts on Audiogon because your opinion is based on measurements (except when you don't find a measurable difference ala cables, tweaks, etc). 

Amir's exact words,

I have repeated over and over again that listening tests are the gold standard over measurements. 

How do we move forward if the same lies continue to be repeated?

How do we move forward if some audiophiles refuse to put their faith to the test and do a blind listening test?

@juanmanuelfangioii +1  He tales the joy out of the hobby.  It is a hobby for most of us, not a vocation. 

I only accepted a small fee for one recording/mastering session out of 250+ recordings because I love music so much (sometimes performing as well) and being around so many creative people (composers of many movies and music loving actors as well).  

I am fortunate to have several friends who I consider to have golden ear hearing and two that have been employed in remastering of LPs for Kevin Gray and Chad Kassem's labels.  One finds digital recording just another format, the other hates it and sticks only to analog.  They both can detect anomalies/distractions in a sound system and possible solutions in acoustics and mechanical devices (not electronic) very quickly.   It's great to have those friends who are so picky about sound.  They have been nit-picking my system for decades but provided me leads on improving it to the state is in now which they say is all I need.  No guest leaves my house after listening without wanting to return to hear more.  I have to set time limits. 

I found this quite interesting and it appears the folks over at this site do quite a bit of testing. They seem to be very transparent about their test equipment, methodology and end goals in testing. They even make a statement as such.

@amir_asr what say you? I do not go on your site very often as the equipment you test is not of any interest to me. The question is are you as transparent in your net goals and testing criteria?

@Amir Keep your fans on ASR.  Can't hear differences in cables that measure the same=something is very wrong here.  One doesn't have to believe any online person; however, based on the enormous "subjectivist" opinions, people actually do hear differences, right or wrong, personal preferences included, regardless of measurements and decide to what sounds best to them, in a system, in a room.  Nothing you say will change that.  Your advice based on measurements is not something audiophiles/music lovers agree on because, apparently, they choose wrongly, equipment that doesn't measure up to your standards or is too expensive.  I listen in the dark with all lights off when I want to immerse myself in the music, just like a movie theater.  I don't see differences in sound, I hear them.  

Dismissive of older equipment not measuring as well as cheap current equipment is as wrong as dismissing older recordings because they used older technology with distortions and reduced resolution, etc. of tape versus superior hi-res digital.  

You think you are superior to nearly everyone who posts on Audiogon because your opinion is based on measurements (except when you don't find a measurable difference ala cables, tweaks, etc).  The overwhelming majority do not think so.  I am just one music lover with recording/performing experience and a high end audio reproduction system.      

@cindyment ​​​​​​@crymeanaudioriver  or your other 19 usernames. You are the Tick carrying Lyme Disease to forums. The rat that carries the plague. 

@fleschler 

And here's a guy who can't hear differences in cables. 

With my eyes open like you, and full of preconceptions, I hear the difference every day of the week and twice on Sunday!  I report the same in my reviews.  Problem is, when I close my eyes, the difference vanishes like a fart in the wind.  And that is what happened to Mike in that test.  So it doesn't matter which school of thought you arrive from.  Use only your ears and then conclusions are something we can talk about.  

Remember, there is a cost to you what you believe in.  Such fancy cables cost money that could be put to other use like buying more music, good food, etc.  So you best be sure when you insist that you are right.  Repeating misconceptions about me won't get you there.

@fleschler 

My opinion has no validity without measurements.  

What?  I didn't ask you to measure anything.  I asked you to listen only with your ears.  And not with your eyes. 

I have repeated over and over again that listening tests are the gold standard over measurements.  You have spent a ton of time here posting.  In that much time you could have conducted many blind tests showing us how  your ears correctly identify one cable vs another.

As for my example, it was a concrete data point.  As I keep saying, we are fans of what we can prove and demonstrate, not just claim.  Will you follow or are folks supposed to believe an online person because he just says so? 

Yeesh.

Amir isn’t ’invading’ Audiogon.

Someone created a thread critiquing him and his web site, so he’s entered the thread to clear up misconceptions and answer questions. I think it’s great that he showed up!

Should we just keep this an echo chamber where criticisms are thrown around and never countered because "stay in your lane!" ??

Also, don’t speak for everyone: plenty of people here do not wish to fall for b.s. claims made by manufacturers and we are glad there are places like ASR which puts these (and other audiophile claims) under more rigorous scrutiny.   And I'm sure I'm not alone in appreciating Amir showing up here to disabuse misinfo.  Don’t treat Audiogon as some hive-mind of pure Golden-Eared subjectivism - the members span a gamut.

@fleschler +1, every post in this thread (even ones that disagree with you) seems to confirm your original thesis when starting this thread, congratulations! Over 1000 posts in this thread can’t be wrong, that’s how I measure the deal.

He obviously has a defective ear(s)/brain, really bad audio equipment/cables/system or listening capability. 

That is 4 cliches in one sentence. That is not something one should be proud of.

This has all gotten so booorrriiinnnggg.

Please go back to your sandbox, to which I hope is filled with quicksand. 

Time to shut this pig down.  

@tonywinga  I love your analogy of a color blind man not seeing green traffic lights.  If it weren't for their usual location at the top of the signal, he would be a danger on the road.  That's Amir. 

@Amir My tests are extensive and include measuring the output of audio devices to see if the waveform has changed at all.  I recently started to play music through them and perform null tests showing the cable made no contributions whatsoever.

Reports like yours persist not because the facts are different, but that you think listening with your eyes wide open is the same as doing so without them.  Until such time that you can provide reliable evidence of sound only, what you are saying has no value

HA HA HA!!!  He started to play music through them (I bet they weren't the digital cables I've tried and use) and couldn't find any contribution.  Hence, what I say have no value.  That's both stupid and funny.  I can't hear.  My opinion has no validity without measurements.  And here's a guy who can't hear differences in cables.  He obviously has a defective ear(s)/brain, really bad audio equipment/cables/system or listening capability.   I struck out your opinion because that's what I think of it and so does 90+% of this forums members think of it (ASR members posting negative opinions here make up most of the rest).  You have a tin ear!  Digital cables all sound the same-what a rube!

The claim prove a negative is itself a negative claim and a self defeating statement. Imagine someone color blind arguing there is no such thing as a green light on traffic signals when the one they're arguing with rejects evidence and science that proves color blindness exists,  so to them there are no green lights anywhere. 

@ghasley , I love your analogy, we are "invading", good one. Uhhhh.. who is invading who?? This is a discussion among hobbyists, about a common interest. I am asking a question about professionalism, courtesy, and opening a discourse. Your point is extremely well taken that although Audiogon welcomes different opinions Amir is free to come here and express himself and then shut down and censor the same posts on his own site

@kota1 Hey, ASR is Amir’s site to do with as he pleases and its a site that the ASR disciples obviously appreciate. Now, why on earth do they want to invade a neighboring country or vice versa? Most here have no desire to lean into their philosophy so why do they wish to lean into Audiogon’s? Can’t we all agree that we already picked our path? Those without a camp can pick the one they like and go there. If someone got banned from either site they likely had it coming based on the rules and norms of that particular site.

If people are listening to more music through Topping isn’t that great? Isn’t it also great if people are listening to more music through ARC, Wilson, Luxman, Devore, Audio Note, Shindo, Harbeth…

@amir_asr

You want a new test? Come back with real data that shows usefulness.

Your site is to heavily censored for NEW data, NEW opinions, even NEW members that have an open mind. If you WANT the data, stop shutting down people who don’t agree with you and tear down the walls. Isn’t it annoying that you can’t host this thread or a similar thread (even the one you already deleted) on your site without kicking everybody out?

“Meanwhile back at the ranch, while the ranch hands predisposed to measuring the phallic prowess of the various stallions argue of its importance, the wise ranch hand is enjoying a leisurely ride though a beautiful meadow by a stream, sun lightly filtered through the branches of an imperfect tree, with the other ranch hands sweethearts.”

Sorry, couldn’t resist. I’m just stting here listening to Ellington’s masterpiece “Afro Bossa” through a pristine pair of NOS 211 vacuum tubes which, in all liklihood, measure horrbily next to the Topping amplifier du jour. Drive what you like because at the end of the day, nobody gives a darn but you.

And you will forever remain in that state because that is what you want to believe. Imagine someone who is color blind arguing there is no such thing as a green light on traffic lights.  

Hey, Amir is back and still trying to prove a negative.

No, he is disproving a positive.

Notice he continues to try to make his point with singular examples.

Every positive claim that "I or a group heard cable difference " not using proper testing methods are also "singular examples".  He is pointing out those positive claims can be disproved with proper testing methods and have been . I have yet to see any proof to support that positive claim of hearing differences other than useless anecdotal stories.

Hey, Amir is back and still trying to prove a negative.  Notice he continues to try to make his point with singular examples.  In this case someone who owns an expensive stereo.  Remember, Amir considers himself and anyone who has spent a lot of money on equipment an expert.  He just can't get over other people hearing things he cannot.  

“ What is the solution? Ban them after a few posts when you realize they are going against the grain of the forum/thread? “

https://i.gifer.com/Mtiv.gif

@fleschler 

I do not trust @crymeanaudioriver opinion(s).   ASR site is replete with anecdotes and foolish statements concerning cables, especially digital cables.    I've tried half a dozen digital cables and none of them sound the same, not even close.  I bet they measure the same though, 75 ohms, similar capacitance, resistance, inductance although I have no tests proving that other than a voltmeter.   I decided based on listening.   None of the cables had specs although five had extensive explanations concerning their construction.  

My tests are extensive and include measuring the output of audio devices to see if the waveform has changed at all.  I recently started to play music through them and perform null tests showing the cable made no contributions whatsoever.

Reports like yours persist not because the facts are different, but that you think listening with your eyes wide open is the same as doing so without them.  Until such time that you can provide reliable evidence of sound only, what you are saying has no value.

One of the top audiophiles in this forum with half a million dollar audio system swore a few years ago that he can tell the difference between his MIT oracle cable and others.  He agreed to a blind test where he could not remotely do so. All it took was using just his ears to change the outcome.  You can read about it here: 

"So our results with Mike as our listener were clear: for this particular methodology, Mike could not accurately identify a difference in the cables."
 

Mike posts this about the experience: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ul...184-observations-controlled-cable-test-2.html

"yes; i have, to some degree, changed my perspective on cable differences....but...my mind is still processing the results and what they mean for me. i hope that i can coherently relate the various thoughts that go thru my mind. as Chris mentioned; the controls were successful at keeping me from knowing which cable was which. for each test i felt confident about my choice (except #6...see below).
[...]
when i made my choice known for #8 i was confident that i was 100% for all 7. then my friend Ted said 'that's it.....test over'. we had discussed prior that any result 7 out of 10 or better or 15 out of 20 or better would mean a positive result and to continue. once we got to only 3 out of 7 it was clear that we were not going to get a positive result.

why did i fail?.....or put another way.....why did this test show no real difference? was i overconfident?

yes; regardless of the eventual answer i was not respectful enough of the challenge.

[...]

in my mind i am not confident that i will ever be able to hear reliable differences between the Monster and the Opus to pass a Blind test. OTOH i am also not sure i won't be able to do it."

----

Until this lesson is learned, nothing you know in audio can be trusted to be true.

@boxer12 

Tammy-

This guy is like a tick that burrows into Audiogon until he causes enough irritation to get booted out... Then comes back under another name and starts the process all over again. 

What is the solution?  Ban them after a few posts when you realize they are going against the grain of the forum/thread?