Well, I like my high end as much as the next person, but I do object when audio companies attempt to cheat the consumer. There is a 21 (and growing) page thread on computeraudiophile.com pertaining to claims that a well known cable company was fiddling with sound levels during a recent power card demo for the Los Angeles Orange County Audio Soc. True? I was not there, but it sure gives me pause.
Art Dudley Calls B.S. but without naming names - PLEASE DO!
Hey all,
As someone who hasn't been reading the audiophile press for all that long, I stumbled upon this article that I'm sure it lit up these airwaves when it was first published: https://www.stereophile.com/content/skin-deep
It's a great article and one that any knowledgeable person would most likely agree with, but hey, spending your own hard-earned (or inherited) money is a right and a privilege. Art does call out some brands that he perceives to give great value: AMVR, VPL, Conrad-Johnson, DeVore and Harbeth and Kimber and Peachtree and Quicksilver and Rega and Rogue and Spendor and Wavelength. Shouldn't NAD be on this list?
But what he doesn't do and I think is warranted, is name the companies that are most egregious in selling high-end products where the performance is far below the cost.
I, for one, would love to see a list of those manufacturers from the people who read this forum. You can group them by what they manufacture or just put them in order as you see fit. I think it would be most helpful in calling b.s. but with "added-value", which is what this whole article was all about. Right?
As someone who hasn't been reading the audiophile press for all that long, I stumbled upon this article that I'm sure it lit up these airwaves when it was first published: https://www.stereophile.com/content/skin-deep
It's a great article and one that any knowledgeable person would most likely agree with, but hey, spending your own hard-earned (or inherited) money is a right and a privilege. Art does call out some brands that he perceives to give great value: AMVR, VPL, Conrad-Johnson, DeVore and Harbeth and Kimber and Peachtree and Quicksilver and Rega and Rogue and Spendor and Wavelength. Shouldn't NAD be on this list?
But what he doesn't do and I think is warranted, is name the companies that are most egregious in selling high-end products where the performance is far below the cost.
I, for one, would love to see a list of those manufacturers from the people who read this forum. You can group them by what they manufacture or just put them in order as you see fit. I think it would be most helpful in calling b.s. but with "added-value", which is what this whole article was all about. Right?
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@andrewmg - I tried a Cary Audio preamp once. It was really noisy and had a ton of crosstalk between inputs. When I opened it up I realized why. Very poor PCB layout with ridiculously long traces and no ground traces between them. I also did some analysis of the much loved CJ PV12 line stage. It had a circuit designed for 12AX7 tubes but they put 12AU7's in to lower the gain. They were biased in a totally non linear region at the bottom of the curves. It also oscillated for no reason at all. |
Interesting how it seems that the luster has worn off many people's perceptions of Audio Research gear. Years ago I rarely read anything but glowing comments about their offerings. I have a friend who has their large all tube mono blocks and they sound great! My only personal experience was auditioning an LS7 preamp many years ago. There was a slight but perceptible "glaze" to the sound of that inexpensive piece that turned me off. cj won me over! |
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As long as there are folks who appreciate the nuances of fine music reproduction, there will be an audio industry to service those listeners. Think about it...if the hifi industry can and is surviving the mp3 download culture, it will continue to thrive into the future. Indeed, many of those mp3 listeners, realizing the flaws in their culture's format, have, in large measure, given rise to the resurgence in vinyl! |
markalarsen"From a larger perspective, the free market system will take care of the offenders, but it also may destroy the entire audiophile industry." That is so funny there is no way one or two or three or even 10 little "fraudsters" are going to eliminate the entire audio industry that is a ridiculous assertion totally lacking in logic reason or evidence. |
A couple of observations. 1-Value is in the eye of the purchaser. It differs based on our engagement in the category and product considered. 2- We live in a consumer culture but each persons perception of appropriate spending is different and reflects more variables than I can discuss here. Wealthy people tend to think differently. I worked for a self made millionaire business owner years ago running two of his company's four divisions. I turned the businesses around making him more millions for which he paid me Ok. I say ok because my initial contract gave me a share of the profits. He paid me on that one year, hen proceeded to "compel" a renegotiation to more of a salary based deal. He admitted this was not fair but said he needed the money to invest in the company....which I foolishly believed. While he did invest in the business, he also bought 2 new Mercedes and a Rolls Royce, for himself, his wife and his girlfriend......to him that represented a better use of money than paying a proven executive who got results or funding the strategic plans he had agreed to previously. |
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When a reviewer "likes" something ... These "rants" from a "reviewer" pop up from time to time. It is meaningless, I think, it is done to catch a few new subscribers or to show, that oneself CAN think different (but first getting the permission for this "rant" from his boss...) or is it to show that "we" can bury a manufacturer when he won't advertise in our mag? You'll never know ... Some time ago we had a nice conversation here at Agon, probably you’ll find some interesting "news" Click me (yes, it is virus free.....) https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/when-a-reviewer-quot-likes-quot-something |
I'm not sure the June HiFi Plus is available over the pond yet, but this issue of price arose when I read it. It concentrates on whole systems, not individual items and at least two of the articles feature whole systems well into the £400,000+ area. I thought of writing to the editor, but what's the point. I'm sure there are a handful of people who could consider that sort of expenditure, but a small handful, so who are the articles written for?. Actually, the articles were quite interesting and I don't object to the idea of wasting space on them in principle. Just as I wouldn't It would be interesting to know if the manufacturers mark up is more on$200,000 amps than on$3000 ones. It ought to be a lot more, development is presumably more costly and has to be spread over 10's of units sold, not 1000's. |
If one is too stupid or obtuse to trust their ears they deserve what they get for their dollars, hard earned or not. I've tweaked modestly to considerable good effect. My wife, who only comes down to the cave occasionally, usually gives me a succinct observation and it generally lands pretty close to the mark. My components have remained the same since putting the system together. Improvements have come from room treatment and seeing that better electricity runs throughout the system. And yes, the quality of the signal as it comes out the speakers is hugely dependent on the quality of the juice coming out those outlets. Just saying. |
I think Igoler is on to something... As much as I enjoy hearing that someone is particularly impressed by a given product, I too would like to hear when someone is particularly disappointed by a product...particularly when it comes to expensive audio equipment. Part of a public "checks & balances" system that perhaps will encourage manufacturers to stay focused on performance & "relative value" as they develop new products. I am tired of the typical magazine reviews full of the same adjectives and superlatives...rarely with real criticism. They sound more like advertisements rather than objective reviews to me. I encourage and support the development of both lists! |
Kosst, HiFi is growing, to the audiophile market, not the general public. There are numerous new audio product companies popping up all of the time, and those existing, introducing new products. You need to separate the "audio community " from the " general population ". Again, it is all about being " right " with you. I will no longer debate this with you. Have a nice day, and Enjoy ! MrD. |
Keep your socks on supergeek. The whole story of the Teleportation Tweak was finally revealed by your friend and humble scribe. https://www.machinadynamica.com/machina43.htm |
supertweak".You have been called the greatest charlatan of audio in many media posts...Bashing me,an innocent tweaker and my intelligence you may think is impressive to people on here but maybe only the mean spirited.I Q's are something that can be Proven.I could sue you...Are you a 100% hoax.Everything looks like it.I am around intelligent people and know how they act." Well why don't you sue him then and then leave him alone stop with the threats and put action behind you're words if your not a third grader it will be easy for you but I think you are a third grader so ask your mommy for permission before you call a lawyer. |
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Re: CLEARTHINK & GEOFFKAIT.You must be helping your awful friend Geoffkait but with how tricky he is, this might even be Geoffkait himself using alias and multiple usernames on here. In fact that's what I think is more likely.My My...you must be a real expert on intelligence evaluation. Maturity too. How impressive.The real notable experts on intellect tell us that intelligence evaluation is very tricky and deceiving and intelligence itself has so many aspects. It's hard for the experts, but so easy for yourself huh?.There's an old saying that anyone who thinks they know it all is either a genius or an a * *. Wording your text to accuse someone of being in "the third grade" does not lessen the quality of that person's neurons one iota...Calling me an American is to trick people on here to think you are a foreigner. Nice try Geoffkait.You think you are smart but you are transparent instead. Even a third grader can figure that one out.When something stinks and sounds like its full of tricks on here, why does it seem to be ultimately tied in with Geoffkait, which is what you are despicably known for.Your products did not make it in the marketplace. It couldn't have happened to a "worse" guy. Maybe your mother needed to love you more.The word Sociopath mean anything to you? Why don't you give people a break.You are already well into your geriatric years.I have never met anyone as old as you with zero maturity.Perhaps when you leave us, your head should be frozen for study by future generations like Ted Williams the baseball player, like I read in a science magazine.If our technology is sufficiently advanced in the year 3,000, to bring you both back, maybe his head will say "I hit .400, and maybe yours will say "I ripped people.". |
You claim you won the "office pool" and a paper airplane contest.When cornered that's the kind of answer I expected.You can't really come on here and say you were a NASA scientist in print, because you make it seem like you are a scientist with great experience at NASA (have you ever even been in the building? )and what audio business if any, that you do have is based on this fictional or non fictional background.Its not like you are a non controversial figure.You have been called the greatest charlatan of audio in many media posts,forums etc which has undoubtedly held your business down.For the life of me I cannot imagine anyone doing everything they can to at least show credentials.Bashing me,an innocent tweaker and my intelligence you may think is impressive to people on here but maybe only the mean spirited.I Q's are something that can be Proven.I could sue you.I can't imagine a real rocket scientist with your insensitivity and cruelty.Are you a 100% hoax.Everything looks like it.I am around intelligent people and know how they act. |
THE BIG QUESTION: Were the moon landings a hoax? Although I'm feeling I would not be comfortable truthwise with an answer from YOU.Still waiting on proof you ever were really a NASA engineer.Please don't feed the trolls. They can become habituated to humans. Its best if they are left to their normal diet of goats. |
No doubt wind power but no idea how much power those windmills on Amish farms can put out. Better be efficient Class D amps and efficient speakers to match! Here is a 100% true story. I used to have many Amish kids come into the Radio Shack I managed in the heart of Amish country. They would buy car stereos and Minimus 7s. Very high end for Amish kids! They would hook them up to car batteries in the barn when the folks were not around. Rebellious Amish kids! I think they listened mostly to Death Metal. I did make this one part up. Not much Death Metal out there at the time. Another few years maybe. I have no idea what kind of music they listened to. |
Hifiman, Fact is I grew up in Amish country so that kinda makes me an honorary Amish person. GK goes all the way with this as he is prone to do and mistakenly thinks I actually am an Amish person. Could be! My family teases me about my Amish-like leanings. But don’t let the cat out of the bag! I have the best hifi of any Amish person I know. Certainly the fanciest. |
For the most part the moon landings were not (rpt not) a hoax. Only the first one was a hoax, the one with Neil Armstrong, you know, “One small step for man, one giant step for mankind.” That line was actually written by Stanley Kubrick’s wife. That one was filmed by Kubrick on a back lot outside London. He was selected to film the moon landing since he had just finished shooting 2001: A Space Odyssey so had the sets all ready. |
You could also send mental signals through thick glass like it were telegraph cables... You know, to create agony to intelligent people’s brains... That’s pretty scary considering how effective his constant barrage of useless posts are at creating angst here already. Without even actually going anywhere even! How many victims have bailed? His quantum skills on display.... Luckily us Amish people do not believe in such things. |
supertweak"Still waiting on proof you ever were really a NASA engineer." We have been through this matter on previous occasions in this forum and the universal answer which is supported by the experienced Moderators of this group is that no one here owes you anything at all they do not have to prove who they are conduct any tests at your demand or provide you with any personal information in any way. Based on your previous submissions here wherein you stated you are not comfortable in this group because it lacks what you call sufficiently proper supervision I conclude that you are probably an American in probably the third or fourth grade but I will not demand that you prove that or otherwise provide me with personal information because I can just safely interpret your posts with that understanding that you are still in what some call "grammar school" and if you prefer to think that Geoff never worked for your NASA you can interpret his posts in that fashion but you do not get to persistently pester him in this group he has every right to participate with out your personal interference. |
