Are manufacturer AC cables good enough?

nsgarch,

"...there was a time when there was no such thing as a three prong plug or a three hole receptacle.

During the transition, many folks received mild electric shocks ;~)"

I got lucky, I did not grow up in the U.S.A. No shocks for me. Well, yes shocks but not because of transition. They were all due to stupidity out of curiosity. 220V has a certain feel to it.

"Wow! I thought that the Mountain bike forms were out of hand!"

There are mountain bike forums? Shouldn’t they be out there on the bike, and not at home at the computer? Fakers!

This "hobby" is for those who gave up on doing anything strenuous. It gives them an excuse to sit, do nothing, and try to outsmart a person they have never seen on a topic that means nothing to anyone. Which really is about how to reproduce the work someone else did without doing it yourself and often doing it better than the person who actually produced it does at her/his own home.

During the transition, many folks received mild electric shocks ;~)

>>>>One can’t help wondering if that might help curtail the anger and whining here?

Nothing helps here.

turnbowm,

"Equipment that is double-insulated does NOT require a connection between chassis and earth ground. In such cases, a 2-pronged power cord is perfectly acceptable."

I thought it clarified it to me, it seemed logical and simple. Reading rest of the repsonses, I got lost.

Still, your explanation reminded me of an icon that my portable cassette player had. Two squares, smaller inside the bigger one, which was to imply it was double insulated. Having disassembled that mean machine many times, I do not think it was really "double-insulated", but it might have been constructed in some way that it was not easy to electrocute self. Unless opening it, of course.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Double_insulation_symbol.svg

Wow! I thought that the Mountain  bike forms were out of hand! You guys are much more hard-core.

"Double-insulated" simply means anything the user would be likely to touch is made of non-conductive material. In 120V code-compliant electrical systems, the neutral conductor is also connected to ground, and thus, to the circuit breaker.

In (most) single-ended audio circuits, if (especially) the input signal’s ground, is disconnected from the chassis (or internal grounding point, if the chassis is non-conductive) then the signal is lost …

But....the Doctor said they would help!

maybe it was the electrical shocks that caused the cognitive dissonance...

glupson4,777 posts05-09-2020 12:06pm

"....My amplifier and CD player (same brand) came with two-pronged cord and connector on the devices. I am not sure what certifications they have, but they are from a relatively reputable manufacturer. I somehow doubt they cut corners there...."

Equipment that is double-insulated does NOT require a connection between chassis and earth ground. In such cases, a 2-pronged power cord is perfectly acceptable.

nsgarch2,523 posts05-09-2020 11:20am@ cleeds, turnbowm

"No, disconnecting the ground conductor at the EQUIPMENT end, as I specified, does NOT create a safety hazard.  However, disconnecting the ground conductor at the wall outlet end does indeed create a safety hazard!  A bit of research into equipment grounding techniques will explain why.

Some audio equipment now comes with a workaround for the UL power cord grounding requirements:  you may have noticed a "ground lift" switch on the rear of the chassis. Toggling the switch to the "lift" position accomplishes the same thing as disconnecting the green ground conductor at the equipment end of the OEM power cord."

It doesn't matter which end you disconnect the ground, it's a safety hazard in either case. If an insulation failure occurs/exists in the equipment, the chassis could become "hot" (120VAC). If an individual places one hand on this equipment and their other hand on properly grounded equipment, the resulting condition could prove fatal.

As for the "ground lift" switch on some equipment, that removes the connection between signal ground and chassis ground, which has nothing to do with the power delivery. 

very funny Geoff 👍

During the transition, many folks received mild electric shocks ;~)

>>>>One can’t help wondering if that might help curtail the anger and whining here?

glupson, your question would be best answered by you're researching a little bit of electric power distribution history in the United States.

I don't know how old you are, but there was a time when there was no such thing as a three prong plug or a three hole receptacle.

During the transition, many folks received mild electric shocks ;~)

My new Anthem STR came with a two blade plug and two blade IEC connector on the amp. It has the CE, RoHS,FCC , cTUVus, certifications on it. In case you don't know the cTUVus is a direct replacement of UL and CSA marks.

@ cleeds, turnbowm 

No, disconnecting the ground conductor at the EQUIPMENT end, as I specified, does NOT create a safety hazard.  However, disconnecting the ground conductor at the wall outlet end does indeed create a safety hazard!  A bit of research into equipment grounding techniques will explain why.

Some audio equipment now comes with a workaround for the UL power cord grounding requirements:  you may have noticed a "ground lift" switch on the rear of the chassis. Toggling the switch to the "lift" position accomplishes the same thing as disconnecting the green ground conductor at the equipment end of the OEM power cord. 

nsgarch

You need  to "lift" (disconnect) the ground at the EQUIPMENT end of the stock cord ... cut off the IEC plug at the equipment end of the cord and install a new IEC plug with only the hot (black) and neutral (white) conductors connected ... The ground conductor (green) should be cut a little short of the new IEC plug and not connected.  You have just turned a stock power cord into a respectable audiophile power cord ...

Very bad advice. You have just created a safety hazard. Disconnecting safety grounds is not the remedy for things such as ground loops or AC noise.

yabe1951

You had a contradiction, your intellect said wire is wire should sound the same.
Your experience said no the wires sound different, better.
When humans have dissonances they try to resolve them it’s just what we do. You solved yours by deciding to "just to ignore the science, for the most part, and the debates, and simply enjoy the music." If it worked then your dissonance has been resolved.

It's interesting because I did something similar. Instead of ignoring science I used science and discovered I didn't really hear differences in cables or dacs it was my human frailty or a human fault or perhaps a survival mechanism that evolved. Anyway it's just who we are you solved your contradiction one way and I another.

+1 yabe1951

Beautiful explanation of the cognitive dissonance, and overcoming it to gain benefits. 

nsgarch2,520 posts05-08-2020 12:50am"....You need  to "lift" (disconnect) the ground at the EQUIPMENT end of the stock cord."

Very poor advice from a safety standpoint. Can you name one manufacturer (audiophile-grade or otherwise) that does this?

And it’s still everybody’s favorite whack a mole game. Let’s hope it goes another 40 years. Whack a mole. The sport of kings. 🤗

It's 2020 and people are still arguing if cables make the difference.  Unbelievable.

Regarding Ayre and Cardas, it makes perfect sense to me.  I used to have Ayre CDP many years ago. It had a clean, sterile sound. In the end I used it with Cardas Cross and then GC, which made it a bit better, warmer and more, well, human. But I never came to liking the Ayre sound. 

I am not trying to imply that all Ayre sound like that, I have no idea how their current line of products sound, probably they have some fantastic amps, but that old CDP somehow deters me from looking back at their products. Probably the worst CDP/DAC I have ever had, apart from, obviously, some cheapo stuff.  

I sold Ayre and bough a used Burmester, which btw came with their Burmester power cable. The CDP is gone, but I still have the cable. The sonic picture of that cord I would describe as "hard-hitting" with a pronounced presence range, and this effect was pretty consistent with every CDP I tried. It is so different from Cardas, it's not even funny.

I should try with my current DAC just for the sake of it, but since I am not too much into cables, it will probably keep gathering dust in a cupboard. 

My "thinking" and experience have been at odds when it comes to AC cords. Thinking tells me that "wire is wire" and so long as it can carry enough current, it can't possible sound any better. My experience is the polar opposite. In every case, no exceptions, upgrading from the stock power cords has dramatically improved my enjoyment of music. Maybe my "system" was no better, but the music was most often far move involving, emotionally engaging and just more real. Switching AC cords worked on a Rotel CD player, ARC Ref 3 preamp and perhaps most dramatically, on a McCormack DNA 1 Platinum revision amp. I have seen vastly better picture quality on a plasma TV, heard more detail from an ARC LS9 preamp and on and on. There is science (better understood then in the past) as to why good AC power cables do what they do. The merits of all sorts theories can be debated. I have decided just to ignore the science, for the most part, and the debates, and simply enjoy the music. 
   

As part of moving equipment from one rack to another I at last connected a Pangea AC 14 to the Ayre VX-5 Twenty amp -- I've misplaced the PS Audio AC 3s and the other AC 14 in the mess I've made during the change over.  I have a bunch of similar looking black cables I grab as needed so I'm not sure what cable came with what piece of equipment.  I think I do hear a bit more detail with the AC 14 installed.  I'll continue to search for the AC 3s and other AC 14.

db  

Power cords supplied with new equipment are required to carry a UL label.  The gauge and number of conductors is stamped into the outer cable jacket every foot.

Most original equipment manufacturer supplied power cables are three conductor. A hot, a neutral and a ground, usually twisted together to help reduce RFI and 60 cycle (hum) pick up.  If the manufacturer wants to spend a little more, their stock cable might include a foil shield around the three conductors.  Unfortunately it's really pointless for them to do anything more.
And it's not about the money – here's why:

Underwriters Laboratory requires power cords have a ground conductor that is connected to ground at EACH END of the cord (via the ground pin on the wall plug.)
This provision allows UL to indemnify (underwrite) the manufacturer against liability claims by the end user, for electric shock from a faulty power cord.

So what's not to like?  Well, a long piece of wire that's grounded at each end becomes (guess what!) an ANTENNA!  Depending on its length and orientation, the wire will pick up all kinds of electromagnetic radiation (noise) and, it will induce that noise in any other (ungrounded) conductors that it's in close physical contact with;  which will in turn send that noise straight into the power supply of your high-end audio equipment! And this is why you won't find expensive high end aftermarket power cords sporting a UL label!

So I think the manufacturers deserve a little bit of slack when it comes to OEM power cords!  However, before you totally give up on the power cord that arrived with your new audio gear, there is something you could try, and in the words of the late John Prine "It don't cost very much, and it lasts a long while!" (and you can try it without modifying the stock cord) as follows:

You need  to "lift" (disconnect) the ground at the EQUIPMENT end of the stock cord.
First the quick method:  cut off the IEC plug at the equipment end of the cord and install a new IEC plug with only the hot (black) and neutral (white) conductors connected to the corresponding hot and neutral terminals of the new IEC plug.  The ground conductor (green) should be cut a little short of the new IEC plug and not connected.  You have just turned a stock power cord into a respectable audiophile power cord;  if do this with all your stock power cords you'll wind up with a much quieter system!

If you want to try this without modifying the stock power cord, just make a little pigtail using a male and a female IEC plug wiring only their hot and neutral terminals.  Then spend an evening A-B ing all of your stock power cords  —  cheap thrills! 

"One can’t help wondering if hospitals are encouraged not to report fully everything will open up faster."

I do not think there is any encouragment in that direction. Deaths are reported electronically by a person certifying death, not hospital itself. At least in some places and at least that is how I thought.

It sounds like it could be some kind of media issue. 

According to Hair Fuhrer, the reported number of deaths is actually being inflated so greedy ’D’ states can reap more relief money. You know, this coming from the same guy who toured the medical mask manufacturing facility that has signs everywhere stating to wear a mask at all times and keep six feet apart, while not wearing a mask or keeping six feet apart while the facility blared ’Helter Skelter ’ over the PA system.
That would be funny if it wasn't so ignorantly sad. Or is it sadly ignorant?
Either way, it's appropriate.

Oopsy daisy. 🤭 One can’t help wondering if hospitals are encouraged not to report fully everything will open up faster. 🤫

https://apple.news/Acxt8y-avQeKUHPAkZNX38A

I think that was Octopussy.

Quick interrupt. Looks like an all-time record number today or close to it for the US, at least 2500.  Yes, I know what you’re thinking, “but I thought the number was going down.”

Too much information.

I am afraid @glubson that ship has sailed a long time ago 😂😂

"You’re close, he’s more of a Foghorn Leghorn guy. 🐔"

Are you calling me Horny?

You’re close, he’s more of a Foghorn Leghorn guy. 🐔

The key (in my opinion), is, when you went to the dealer to demo the specific equipment, what power cord was the dealer using when you sat and listened and heard that incredible sound.

Sometimes, I wasn't paying attention, but now a days, I definitely do notice what cables/power cords, etc. the dealer is actually using.  

This is the very top of the bait and switch mentality.  You are so amazed at the sound you are hearing that you fail to notice the many other things that directly affected the sound projection.

1.)  the room
2.) the equipment connected that also affected the sound
3.) the cabling 

So, if, when listening, the power cord used was the one supplied by the manufacturer, then you are good to go.  You can choose to upgrade later if you like, but if it sounded great with the manufacturer supplied cord, I don't see a problem.

If, on the other hand, the cord used wasn't the manufacturer supplied cord, then that is a totally different issue altogether.

Most of my equipment uses the manufacturer supplied cords and the system sounds wonderful.  I imagine that yes, with higher quality cords, it may (probably will) sound better, but..... diminishing returns apply here.

Proper gauge cables that can handle the power/voltage/current requirements and the very minimum acceptable for equipment.  However, you also start getting into internal cable impedance's that can and will vary over frequency, which if the connecting equipment isn't designed well enough to handle the changes, will affect the signal and hence the sound.

I remember a while ago, I purchased a Mark Levinson 23.5 amp used.  The seller shipped it with the non-standard power cord and it sounded as if the artist I was listening to was being strangled.  I contacted the seller and told him this and he agreed that he shipped the wrong cable.  He shipped the correct one later and it totally changed the sound.  

Take this with a grain of salt.  This to my Engineering mind tells me that the first cable wasn't the correct gauge cable for this amp.

Which, when I looked closer at it, it wasn't.

enjoy

I thought he was more of a leg man....

Always ask glubson. If you want to get your finger pulled. 

Yeah, sure. What’s the problem, you don’t trust people from the NSA? The $250,000 Tenor Rockport system I participated in at CES with Shunyata cables won best of show. 

True, they may know they don't matter but they aren't going to come out and shoot themselves in the foot by admitting it.

It would be pretty weird for someone who designs hi end power cords to argue that power cords don’t matter. Yes, no, maybe? Answer at 11.

Good catch! That was a close one! 

thyname

... In the meantime not one credible explanation has emerged as to why the last 2 metres of electrical cabling should matter exponentially more than the previous possible kilometres.

Logical fallacy alert, straw man argument. I don't recall anyone here claiming exponential improvement.

Misconception #3 is nonsense audio components don't have perspectives but anyway why 6 feet? Suppose your magic cable is 12 feet does the amps perspective change? Lets make the cable 30 feet and connect to the panel box what's the perspective of the amp now, does it know a breaker and bus bar is now the bottleneck? What's the perspective of the wires after the power supply? Complete idioticy.

the power cable presents a high impedance to these signals they will be reflected back into the power supply

That's easy enough to figure out just measure the $$$ aftermarket power cable and the stock cable that came with the amp and see if there is a difference.

@cd318 --- I knew exactly what you were going to say. And I regret even trying it. Carry on with the snake oil theory. In fact, if you are so convinced with said snake oil theory, why do you even participate in cable threads?

P.s. you missed #3, with a reference to #1. That was the answer to exactly asked you in the first place: "... In the meantime not one credible explanation has emerged as to why the last 2 metres of electrical cabling should matter exponentially more than the previous possible kilometres."

Rule No. 2, Never ask geoffkait.

How about an English colonel?

Rule No. 1, Never try to explain something technical to an English major.