External DAC's are pretty expensive imho... BUT I don't know that much on how to choose one. I want mostly cd's in my small two channel system... I am rebuilding after selling my Logans and Mac amp to go back to "drivers"! The Logans wore me out with Maintenance. Should I buy a new cd player or get a new DAC for my old player?
Late to the discussion, but have to throw in a comment about NOS chipsets. People seemed enthralled with them right now, but in my experience (sample size of 1 comparison) that is not necessarily true.
I decided to try a Schiit Bifrost MB to see how it compared to my beloved Bel Canto Dac 1 (Burr Brown 1704). I wasn't expecting it, but the Schiit was noticeably better sounding than the Bel Canto. The Bel Canto was known for its ease of sound and lack of grain, the Schiit made is sound grainy and a bit harsh in comparison. Imaging was better with the Schiit and overall, it was like removing a layer of crud from the music stream. The Bel Canto was sold.
I have since moved on to the Schiit Gungir MB, mostly because I wanted to be able to run balanced XLR through my entire chain. The Gungir is imho slightly better than the Bifrost, but not near the difference from the Bel Canto.
Finally, I would trade to using a $100 dac if I could get all my music well mixed. I would be willing to stream in 320kbs MP3 over 44.1/16 or high res if all the material were well mixed.
I dont know much about dac, because all those I own were not truly great, except the last one that is low price and that is truly great … Starting Point Systems nos dac tda 1543...I cannot hear any fault with it....Even the defects that some reviewers speak about, unbeknown to them, comes from their own audio system more than this dac...I know that because before my room treatment, vibrations controls, and cleaning of the electrical grid, this dac was good with some limitations that the reviewers described...But now with all my tweaks no defect for me with this dac of minimalistic design, that is the best kept secret in audio...
The more difficult purchase to make in audio is a dac, because of the high price of the very good one,this one is the exception...
The question of the thread is a very good one. You can even ask this question regarding most audio products. When a market is decreasing manufacturers do everything still to make a profit. When you take a look at the facts they proof that manufacturers are using cheaper parts these days.
To answer your question I hear and audition that most dacs are overpriced. But this counts for many different audio products. We see it in all price ranges. It has become more common than in the past.
They blame the youth is not that interested in audio anymore. I think and believe that the limited quality is the main reason why people are less interested in audio.
I think that you cannot blame the youth not to be interested in audio products who lack emotion. When we visit clients of us first we see that their children are not interested in what we install. But.......when they hear both in stereo and surround a stunning 3D stage with all the layers in sound they become very excited as well.
People love emotion and music. For children counts the same. But when audio lacks emotion and intensity children don’t care about it anymore. By using cheaper parts the youth will become even less interested in audio. I think and believe that this is a normal and even predictable reaction.
There is only one solution; a superior level in emotion and realism in sound in each price range. All other options than this are 100% useless.
People will always prefer what is superior in sound and emotion
Only in a double-blind, level-matched, quick-switching scenario.
I can bet you I can put a $300 power amp in a nice case and say it costs $100,000 (such idiotic prices do exist) and tell people what they should hear as an improvement, and some people will say it sounds better than any $30,000 power amp you wish to put it against.
We are a Lumin dealer. We will never sell Lumin players without a dac inside. Based on the fact that we can create a superior end result with Lumin players with an inbuild dac. What we do is modifying the network players with an inbuild dac.
When all the tests would have shown that the dacs would be better, we would have sold these. People will always prefer what is superior in sound and emotion. This is what I love most in audio.
For me audio is like a competition. I love to outperform and win from all competitors. 2nd best and less will always be for the born losers in this world. We want our clients to get the best result for the money they spend. It would be even silly to sell inferior levels in quality.
We always ask people to bring in their own music and also digital sources and dacs. Shoutout will always tell the truth of a result. We work by Tru-Fi, so we create and build sound on all the aspects/properties of sound.
All people react the same way due to the fact that our emotion works the same way. We have our own preferences in artists and types of music. But voices and instruments sound as they sound. An audio system needs to be able to reveal all the details and aspects of the music/recording.
You need all the aspects of sound of each recording to experience the emotion the music possesses. But when a dac does not own it or is limited in the level in layering in sound. You will never use it for a long time. People have often no idea why their systems lack emotion.
The coherent sound is essential in audio. This is why I will use conservatorium students during my presentations. I want to show and prove that we create the sound as it sounds in real.
The biggest problem in audio is that most products cannot reveal all the aspects of sound. Due to the fact that these products do not own these aspects/properties. And what is missing never can be heard.
When you do audio by trial and error, it is almost impossible to create an ultimate sound what owns all the aspects of sound. Because you never can look back to understand why the sound and stage is what you can hear. You need to be able to extract the full DNA of each individual part in your system.
When you do not understand sound and music it will never be possible to understand audio at all. When I ask people what the aspects are of sound. They have no idea. When I ask them how our emotion works during listening to music again they have no idea. Even when I ask them on which aspects they judge and choose their system they have no idea.
You can never understand and guide audio when you cannot think and work by the properties of sound. People also have no idea how big the influence is of the acoustics in a room. The same counts for the influence of electro-smog, high-frequency noise, and magnetism. Even the last parts limit the level in the layering of dacs and digital sources.
Magazines and website in audio are using paid reviews most of the time. You cannot measure everything. I listened to many amps and sources who had the best measurements. But they all owned a limited level in diversity in sound.
We create sound by Tru-Fi. A 3-dimensional stage is one of the aspects of Tru-Fi. This cannot be measured, but it is very easy to hear it yourself. Many dacs cannot reveal all the aspects/properties of sound. So we ask clients to bring in their dacs and digital sources.
Then we explain to them which parts are missing when we connected their dacs and sources. And we use the same music (often their own music) again but now with the modified Lumin. It becomes so easy for them to understand directly what they miss.
Most dacs create a 2-dimensional stage. When we compare only this aspect to the huge homographic 3D stage of our modified Lumin players. People often hear for the first time in their life what a 3D stage does with their music.
The smiles on their faces tells it all. Their euphoric reaction proofs how big the influence is of a 3D stage. Human beings can perceive sound in a 3D stage. But most audio products are still 2D. Many people who contact me miss the emotion in music. So we ask them to bring in their dacs and sources.
When a source can reveal all the aspects/properties of sound it makes clear how limited their incomplete DACS and sources are. It is a lot more easy to create a higher end result when the DAC is inside a source. This is why so many people still use a CD-player.
People don't understand why their sources lack emotion. But it is very easy to explain, due to the low level in layering in sound.
That may be true for you, as a dealer, but I think it's the worst way to evaluate audio products. Many an "impressive sounding" component has been revealed to be colored after long-term listening.
Audio is all about the shootout of products. They loose layering in sound. Most of all in the middle frequencies. In each shootout we outperform dacs. Based on the fact that we can prove that with modified Lumin players and our modified power supplies together it is so much more analog sounding.
Audio is all about what you can hear and perceive. Diversity in sound is the most important aspect/property of sound. Due to the fact that it has the biggest influence on our emotion. That is why we use this property to the max.
We are a company who have done thousands of tests in audio in over 20 years of time. We spend these days still a lot of time on research and testing. We are extreme perfectionists. In our world, there is one golden rule. Only the best product in each single price range is the only one who counts.
This makes it so much more easy to compete. By doing modifications we create new levels and standards who have no competition at all. For me, audio is outperforming and being superior to all other companies.
We have tested many dacs and digital sources in the last 6 years. Most prove to own a very limited level in layering in sound. You need all the different harmonics in sound to be connected to the music. Unfortunately, many digital dacs and sources are not that good in this part.
We are not talking about personal preferences, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 100% FACTS. It is very easy to teach people how big the differences are in layering in sound. Each human being will always choose the most intense and emotional sound.
A friend on my does Esoteric in different countries. But he owns a Lumin soon with our modifications. Because in a shootout it overruled the Esoteric on all 8 aspects/properties of sound. Emotion is the key to success in audio.
I started to read about the human emotion regarding sound and music since 2015 a lot. Many modifications we use and create are founded on the parts which influence the human emotion during listening to music.
Show me where they lack dynamics or resolution. You obviously have never properly tested yourself to see if you can actually hear what you are claiming. Just like how 24/96 provides no consumer benefits over 16/44.1, yet people claim otherwise.
The people who develope dacs and digital sources don't agree with you. For me counts the same. It is very easy for us to outperform dac/streamer combo's with our modified Lumin network players and modified power supplies.
We outperform them in a superior level in diversity in sound. In dynamics and also in resolution. Audio is all about the shootout between products.
We create sound by its properties. This makes it very easy to show people what a dac misses. No one will ever be interested in a product what lacks information or is inferior in emotion. We outperform most of all in emotion.
Just utter baloney. USB has no faults besides not having 100% noise rejection and only working well to a few meters (where AES does a better job). In terms of just data transmission, it is 100% fine on its own. The benefit of 75ohm with BNC is also not a concern.
There are countless of DACs that are transparent when using USB. You can only say they are not if you have unconscious bias, which a double-blind listening test will get rid for you.
The simple fact is what modern DAC you have >$200 is really a non-issue.
You may know the $10,000 amp challenge, I may start a $4000 DAC challenge to anyone who can tell the difference between the Chord DAVE / DSC Rossini vs the $400 March Audio DAC1 (slightly modified $100 Khadas Tone Board DAC in a case).
Your speakers and room are 90% of the issue, 6% your amp, 2% preamp, 1% DAC, 1% song format.
The people who create dacs and digital sources for manufacturers would often have made different decisions. You all forget that people who design dacs are often paid by manufacturers. They make the decisions at the end. These are often not the best in sound quality. They are only focused on making as much money as possible.
In 2012 I started to listen to many dacs and network layers. I was surprised that they all had the same limitation. They all had almost no diversity (layering) in sound. When I had contact with a designer he told me that USB is not a choice of designers. But made by those who make decisions at a high level. He said that USB should have never be chosen for audio.
The facts prove that most dacs are only able to create a very low level in layering in sound. Even the most expensive dacs show the same limitation regarding diversity in sound. That is why so many still use cd-players and turntables.
Based on the fact that many dacs do not convince people in the sound they are looking for. When you would understand how human emotion works regarding music, it becomes very easy to understand why so many dacs lacks emotion.
No cable of clock link will solve this problem. When people who create audio products would better focus on how music sounds and which aspects it owns, the level in realism in sound could become a lot better. But money is the real reason why consumers are limited in the quality they get at the end.
@mzkmxcv I have learned that in audio more money is not always an indicator of the best performance. However, I sold the Benchmark because it did not sound as good on the new speakers I want to buy as compared with the ML If you go by spec alone the Benchmark should compare well. It did not have the ability to project the sound away from the speakers like the ML did. So in this case the more expensive gear was better to my ears.
I known a bit about Harman due to owning Revel Salon1 for a number of years.
I owned the Benchmark DAC3L + AHB2 amp for about a year. I took both to an audio store and compared them to Mark Levinson 585 (and also some ML separates) with the Magico A3. The ML gear sounded a heck of a lot better. I did not play the volume too loud so I was not straining the AHB2. I sold my Benchmark gear after that. After that demo, I realized that specs are not the end all.
D/A conversion technology has outpaced the development of new power amplifiers. This means that the power amplifier has become a limiting factor in many audio systems. For example, the noise and distortion produced by the Benchmark DAC3 D/A converter is 20 to 30 dB lower than that produced by most high-quality power amplifiers. Until now, this meant that the DAC3 could not be fully appreciated. Benchmark set out to solve this problem by creating an amplifier that matches the performance of the DAC3.
The Crane Song Solaris got a recommendation from a review site. I never heard of it until recently. http://www.cranesong.com/SOLARIS.html It retails for around $2K and is used in many studios and is suitable for home use.
Check out the Jitter Page where you can download jitter loaded files and test whether you can hear what it does to music. I didn't, but for those who are adventurous enough, it can add to the debate whether jitter can influence sound as we hear it and not just reside in the noise floor.
I recently purchased a Denafrips Pontus R2R external DAC that I'm very pleased with. A bargain, I feel, at about $1800 US Dollars. My thoughts are posted on their website:
I should add that all three, on good sounding CDs, were quite excellent. On bad material, well, GIGO. The MSB was probably the most dynamic. The Schiit and the Theta had a strong family resemblance, a more laid-back presentation, and therefore maybe friendlier to poor material, with the Theta having a bit more heft than the Schiit. Then again it was $4000+ when it was new, and the Schiit is $599, and power supply and analog stage design have changed little in the interim. I expect that a better source with truly low jitter could have changed the outcome - and made a bigger difference than choosing any of the DACs over each other. I would like to ( and will) compare the same CD through the Schiit played over USB (asynchronous, DAC clocking) and a run-of-the-mill transport (synchronous, transport clocking). I expect that will be enlightening. The Schiit alas, is not mine so it takes a bit more doing.
R2Rs are back on the market from Analog Devices. Schiit is using them in almost all their DACs as an upgrade. Now, i'll debate that they are hands down better. I had a new schiit BiFrost MultiBit (R2), a MSB Gold Full Nelson, and a Theta DSPro Gen 2 - and we listened side by side, back and forth. Frankly, different but very, very close. People worry too much about chips and not enough about execution- everything from digital filtering to power supplies to jitter reduction etc etc
If all your playing is Red Book CD's than look at some of the top of the line DAC's from the early 90's. They used R2R chips. Today a lot of the super expensive DAC's are going back to R2R topology but they have to do it the hard way because there are no more R2R chips made. Instead of precision laser trimmed resistor banks (Inside of the DAC Chip) now they have to use carefully matched SMD resistors and solder them to a circuit board. Even one of the owners of Schitt lamented that these chips are no longer available and claims that the Burr Brown PCM63P DAC chip was the best ever made.Why? Because they sound so dam good!I have a Parasound D/AC1000 that uses the BB PMC63P chips, it has three analog PS, one for the digital section and two for the analog audio section. It sounds very musical and they can be purchased cheap. New in 1990 they cost 1000.00, not exactly chump change. 100.00 to 200.00 is what they sell for on Ebay. So today the high end DAC's are moving back to the older technology to get better sound. The DS style DAC's just don't compete.
I am really appreciative of the experiences shared here so I will hopefully throw out a DAC question that someone has a reference from which to share. I am considering inserting a PS Audio DSD in between my Oppo 205 and Hegel H300 to stream MQA Tidal through Roon. Worth it? Nordost Frey loom and Dynaudio 260’s. Thanks for any opinions.
Oh, also don’t forget the wire and the power supply. They make a big difference. I use Audience cable, and it isn’t cheap, but their new budget cable Ohno is unbelievably good for the money. Battery power or upgraded switching power supplies for computer audio can make a big difference.
Man, the reply’s here are all over the place. After 40 years of the high end and also working for dealers and hearing everything out there, it doesn’t take long for me to decide to buy when I hear something great without the several thousand dollar price tag. My advice in your case is for to you to buy a really good value used stand alone CD player like Rega Apollo and start there. If you want to play computer audio files, then you will need a DAC. Chord Hugo 2 and Ayre Codex are excellent value and sound and both available used this week on AudioGon for less than $2K. So far, I have not heard a below $1000 retail DAC that I would buy. I also find that tube output stages sound a lot more like live music than anything else. Wavelength DACS are wonderful in their musicality and soundstage. If you are buying retail through a local dealer, they should allow you to try at home before you buy, or pay for it and return it in a week if not wanted.
mrkoven- Can you provide more context on your system, room, listening method, expectations, and findings? I'll note that discussing the DAVE int he context of budget DACs is kinda silly.... but its nice that you can try such things. I like the qutest a lot.
I used to think DACs made little difference until I tried the Chord DAVE. Whether it's overpriced... well, that comes down to your own financial situation as ultimately value is subjective and cost is relative.
The average blue collar guy can buy a Schiit Modi for $99. I did. Interesting you brought up MSB. I have a Full Nelson Gold. Also added a magic tandem PLL in it, and over the past few weeks built God's own (with apologies to God) external power supply - which made a big difference. That thing is still competitive. G
I remember when affordable DACs like Audio Alchemy and Theta Chrome were popular, the average blue collar guy like myself could afford one. I had several early DACs and most were pretty good...at least better than the average decent CD player at the time. There were always killer dacs like dcs and MSB among others but then DACs fell out of fashion....
My first DAC was an Audio Alchemy 1.1 , shortly after that I bought a like new California Audio Labs Alpha for half price. It was a great DAC but like a fool I sold it. I've had a few others si ce and my current DAC is a NAD M51 which still sou ds pretty damn good.
I was blown away at the quality of MQA streams through my Bluesound Vault 2i, it's hard to say what sounds better, the M51 decoding the 24/96 stream or the player unfolding MQA but for most MQA I've listened to sounded better than it's redbook version.... not that I'm in the market for a new DAC but one thing is for sure, I'm not replacing the NAD until DACs with dsd and MQA are mainstream and somewhat within reach.
I only listen to my stereo about 5 hours a week (about 280 hours a year). Let's say I buy a $2k DAC and keep it for 5 years. That's about $1.50/hour. I can easily cover that cost if I buy my wine by the case instead of individual bottles. The more expensive your wine, the more money you will have saved to buy an even more expensive DAC. So if you have a glass or two of wine while your listening, you can buy the DAC of your dreams without denting the household budget!
OK, I'll try to provide a little less rant-ish reply ;_) (although i stand by what i said). If your question is really "what should I do about my digital?" - that's a very different question. let me first emphasize truths that have been stated here in different places that I support: 1. A DAC is only as good as the jitter of the signal it is sent. Jitter directly impacts the analog output by determining the points in PAM on a horizontal axis. SPDIF is NOT a pure digital signal when only bit recovery matters. 2. Anyone's ability to resolve and appreciate DAC differences is therefore depending on the transport signal. 3. Similarly it is dependent on the rest of the system (duh, but often overlooked when someone ways "i didin't hear a difference" (through some god-awful or simply inexpensive system) 4. SPDIF is synchronous, with the source as the master clock. USB is asynchronous withe the DAC as the only clock. Therefore USB frees DACs from the tyranny of jitter (but picks up USB noise). I don't mean jitter doesn't matter, just that the jitter is now under the DAC's control. 5. The law of diminishing marginal gains lives. This is why "are they overpriced" is such a fraught question. To some yes, To others no. They cost what they cost. 6. Pay little attention to the chip used. Worry about jitter, power supply design, digital (pre/up filtering), analog driver and post-filter - you know, the analog stuff :-) Two new thoughts: Digital - like all formats is more compromised by the recording process than decent playback. Listen to a regular old 44/16 recording "ella and louis" on a good system - not crazy good, but pretty darn good. 60 year old analog recording, competent transfer to digital, glorious. We don't necessarily need high-res, we need competent, pure sound obsessed, recording and mastering engineers. Note: if you are a 50 year old rock and roller with hearing loss, you may demand treble boost. Bzzzt.
I have some very old but good DACs that stand up to upper-middle competition of today's very well, with my compromised transport (yea, my bad). I plan to switch to a ROON server and move away from SPDIF as much as possible to fix this ( and use a very good low jitter USB--> SPDIF for the legacy stuff, maybe my own frankenbox, maybe the new Schiit - Mike's smart). I do have a frankenbox today - tandem PLLs that helps. Some. Have fun. Sorry if i was a crank earlier. My point is that there are facts we can use - and a bunch of opinions, with no assumptions listed, are like signals with floating grounds. Yikes!
I run a Peachtree DAC iT, which is their older model. Picked it up about 5 years ago and paid full-ticket of about $500. Sounds awesome and you can find them on EBay for about $125 or so. The newer iTx model does 192 khz whereas my older beast only does 96 khz. But since I only use it for playing back Redbook grade files, it's fine for me.
I am a believer in high-end DAC's. I was convinced to throw down some serious cash on an MSB Analog DAC with fancy power supply and volume control (as equipped, $12K+, new), which replaced my preamp as well (Plinius 12P). I think that it was a good improvement over my already good DAC/streamer Naim NDX. But as everything in audio, how big an improvement is dependent on so many factors, such as speakers, room, amplification, power, cabling, etc. Highly revealing speakers will show more differences than rolled off "warm" ones, etc. That's the irony of audio, I suppose. The more expensive your components are, the more expensive they need to be to sound good. So are DAC's overpriced? It depends on your system. a $90K DAC in a $20K system . .. probably not a great match. Then there is the unique language of reviewers: "noticeably more presence" = 5% better "makes you feel right there" = 5% better "a big difference over my reference" = 10% better "Blows away my reference ___" = 10-15% better "to my ears, the most amazing ___ since the invention of the transistor" = 15% better.
A little off-topic, but just once I'd like to read an Absolute Sound or Stereophile review that instead of gushing superlatives says "this piece of equipment costs $20K and sounds no better than a $3000 one. Buy it if you want, and it sounds good, but its just not worth the money."
i am still using a NAD D1050 which is now 5 years old. you can get these for about $450 and they sound terrific. the NAD will not playback MQA or DSD, but it will playback 24/192 and 16/44.1 on good Classical recordings can be spell binding. most POP recordings can not compete with a good Classical recording. but their are exceptions. have not heard anything much better in the last 5 years. if NAD had thought they could have produced something better in the intervening years considering their huge R&D budget i am sure they would have by now. the golden age of digital is over.
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